[Closed] Banker bashing Monday!

The main "Casualty" will be Stephen Green...

TBH I don't see why we should be shocked, loopholes and Gaps in oversight are there to allow the wealthy to exploit them, the problem HSBC face is that it's Evasion not Avoidance (The two seem conflated in the press/politics IMO)...

HMRC are happy enough if owed tax is retrieved with minimal fuss, it'll only be the press and oposition front benchers baying for blood, and that's where Lord Green will take one for the team I reckon, it'll all be donne with by Thursday lunchtime...

Breaking news from 2007.

Stephen Green appears to have done nothing illegal. He withdrew £2m from his own account, unusual yes but illegal no. He was a major donor to the Labour Party btw, lent them £3m

The various press reports today have also mentioned that Phillip Green (of TopShop) avoided tax on a £1.2bn dividend he paid to his wife in Monaco. Stop complaining and change the law/rules.

As HSBC points out the rules have been tightened since 2007 and they are compliant with todays new rules.

Stop complaining and change the law/rules.

This x1000000

making a convoluted set of rules (with loopholes) and then getting all animated when (Shock Horror) those with means and motive to do so take advantage is a bit pointless...

The Fuss over PWC last week was funny too, faux outrage at financial adisors offering.... Gulp.... Financial advice! whatever next....

He was a major donor to the Labour Party btw, lent them £3m

well that worked OK- he was made a tory peer

Stop complaining and change the law/rules.

red ed suggested an electorate friendly clampdown on tax havens last week and was rounded on by the press and torries

the problem HSBC face is that it's Evasion not Avoidance (The two seem conflated in the press/politics IMO)...

i suppose thats the problem the line between avoidance and evasion seems very thin HSBC have been accused of both,

Id just naively like to think that these advisors would have some sort of I dunno, moral code!

The OP's link suggests that it wasn't simply a case of exploiting perfectly legal "loopholes".

In case you haven't read the OP's link, quote :

[i][b]And while tax avoidance is perfectly legal, deliberately hiding money to evade tax is not.

The French authorities assessed the stolen data and concluded in 2013 that 99.8% of their citizens on the list were probably evading tax.

HSBC did not just turn a blind eye to tax evaders - in some cases it broke the law by actively helping its clients.[/b][/i]

And :

[i][b]HSBC denies that all these account holders were evading tax.[/b][/i]

So according to the HSBC themselves only some of these clients were acting legally.

And finally :

[i][b]The bank now faces criminal investigations in the US, France, Belgium and Argentina.[/b] [/i]

or once you reach a certain salary do your morals simply evapourate?

Pretty much. Although how often is open to debate. Humans are flawed. Deeply flawed.

[i]Stop complaining and change the law/rules.[/i]

HSBC are/were breaking the law. The rules are pretty clear. They just choose to ignore them on behalf of their rich clients.

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Oh dear!!

Not only are a [url= http://politicalscrapbook.net/2013/06/conservative-party-donors-tax-havens/ ]good chunk of Tory donors all about the tax avoidance[/url]

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/apr/20/cameron-family-tax-havens ]But it also appears to be the basis for the Cameron Family fortune[/url]

Well played Beaker...

Aside from any legal investigations, any suspected evaded tax should be paid by the bank unless they can show it was perfectly legal. They can then chase their clients for it.

[i]HSBC are/were breaking the law. The rules are pretty clear. They just choose to ignore them on behalf of their rich clients. [/i]

It seems the same official that let Vodafone off £6 billion in taxes has also been closely involved in the decision making re: what's done to HSBC and it's customers in this case.

He's clearly got a big future as a tax consultant and doesn't want to spoil it by upsettign future customers with inconvenient bills and court cases...

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/jul/17/hsbc-executive-resigns-senate ]Not the 1st time HSBC has been involved in dodgy business[/url]

What with laundering funds for drug cartels and terrorists...

[url= http://www.****/news/article-2750024/New-BBC-chief-sued-allegations-HSBC-laundered-terrorists-drug-cartels-money-time-chairman-bank-s-risk-committee.html ]Funnily enough the latest chairman of the BBC is tangled up in it all too[/url]

Best not to ask Dave about the tax affairs of the company his wife works for. I hear Luxembourg is lovely this time of year.

Or those who'll [url= http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=tory+election+fundraiser&hl=en-GB&gbv=2&prmd=ivns&source=univ&tbm=nws&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=mZfYVIDrF8TXavX4gTA&ved=0CBYQqAI ]be funding his election campaign[/url]

are they just inherently corrupt, or once you reach a certain salary do your morals simply evapourate?

HSBC are/were breaking the law. The rules are pretty clear. They just choose to ignore them on behalf of their rich clients.

There is nothing illegal about opening an offshore account. I've had 3 over the years, all as a result of working abroad and all with tax paid money. To make things easy tax return wise I put the money in non-interest bearing current accounts.

[i]I don't think that's the case in the majority of instances.[/i]

So, HSBC has admitted it's broken the law, the French authorities has concluded that 99% of the accounts were for evading tax, HSBC has had to pay hundreds of millions in fines and back taxes, and countries across the globe are investigating this...and you don't think that's the case?

Are you wilfully ignorant* or just trolling

* not in pejorative sense, are you just not paying attention to what's going on?

I don't think that's the case in the majority of instances.

😆

So if there is a police raid on some dodgy character and the majority of the bikes in his garage are not stolen that's fine ?

I don't think that's the case in the majority of instances. We shall see if they face any trials ?

Don't be silly! Everyone knows that bankers are above the law. Glad to be proved wrong on this, if you can point me in the direction of a single solitary case of a banker seeing the inside of a courtroom, for any of the banks previous multitudinous fraudulent activities

And we'll refer to it for what it is eh? its not 'mis-selling' its fraud!

[b]GO!.... [/b]

Bashing bankers is just attacking the symptoms. The poor have just as much capacity to exploit loopholes and have just as compromised morals, we just call them benefit cheats. I can't blame anyone for exploiting the system. I do it myself - bike to work scheme for example.

The only way to tackle this issue is by overhauling the system and closing down the loopholes.

[i]closing down the loopholes. [/i]

that's avoidance.

HSBC was involved with and encouraging evasion which is a criminal offence in most countries. Just not a crime they'll be facing prosecution for in the uk despite other jurisdictions taking criminal action against them.

HSBC are/were breaking the law. The rules are pretty clear. They just choose to ignore them on behalf of their rich clients.

I'm far more interested in their rich clients - after all, where does the money used to pay HSBC come from? The bankers are clearly criminal, but where does the money come from? I'm sure there are loads of very worried Spanish politicians at the moment...

or once you reach a certain salary do your morals simply evapourate?

I think you are labouring under the illusion that they had any morals to begin with.

The poor have just as much capacity to exploit loopholes and have just as compromised morals, we just call them benefit cheats.

Not quite the same capacity :

[url= http://citywire.co.uk/money/tax-evasion-costs-treasury-15-times-more-than-benefit-fraud/a378274 ]Tax evasion costs Treasury 15 times more than benefit fraud[/url]

"The poor" need to get their finger out if they are going to milk the system as much as tax evaders.

The only way to tackle this issue is by overhauling the system and closing down the loopholes.

HSBC were literally doling out suitcases full of cash. No questions asked.Thats not about exploiting loopholes. Thats just criminal behaviour. But from an organisation that also asked no questions when Mexican gentlemen regularly arrived with millions of dollars in similar suitcases, what do we expect?

Well... someone actually being held to account would be nice. If only for the novelty value.

The poor have just as much capacity to exploit loopholes and have just as compromised morals, we just call them benefit cheats.

......and there I was thinking benefit cheats were rich, what with their big London houses and all

@binners plenty of big fines in the US (inc for the likes of HSBC) for abusing the law regarding money laundering and sanction busting.

"no questions asked" - I think its a bit daft to obsess about this as anyone with an ounce of intelligence can come up with a believable reason they need the cash. The guy in question (Richard XYZ ?) said he wanted to deposit it in another bank but didn't want to tell HSBC who it was, perfectly within his rights to do that.

@ernie is correct, tax evasion dwarfs benefit fraud. I'd say cash in hand payments to tradesmen cause a VAT loss to HMRC which exceeds benefit fraud then there is the undeclared income with respect to income tax. Then we add on all the larger scale stuff starting with say media bods via sportsmen all the way up to big business.

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@binners plenty of big fines in the US

Funny I thought the subject at hand is a UK bank helping UK companies and citizens avoid UK tax. Where does the US come into it?

@binners plenty of big fines in the US (inc for the likes of HSBC) for abusing the law regarding money laundering and sanction busting.

Any Uk examples? And I'm not talking about fines anyway? They ultimately just get passed on to the customers of organistaions deemed 'Too Big to Fail'. Or the taxpayer. So aren't even a punishment at all.

I'm talking about individuals being hauled up in court, for their fraudulent activity. After they've personally profited enormously from their illegal activity? You know.... Like, say... someone fraudulently claiming disability allowance would be?

No?

What's wrong with good old fashioned safes these days fps.

[i]I'm talking about individuals being hauled up in court, for their fraudulent activity.[/i]

that only happens if the victim is a bank...

My cousin is a 'Personal Banker' in Zurich. He is firmly of the mind-set that paying taxes is only for 'the little people'.

Why is HSBC facing criminal investigations in the US, France, Belgium & Argentina but not the UK?

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Because the bankers managed to get their party/backers/old school tie mates elected to government ?

To be fair a Labour Party scared of its own shadow is unlikely to have behaved any different.

No doubt~ [url= http://http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2008/oct/21/mandelson-georgeosborne ]the case of Peter Mandelson, George Osborne and Nat Rothschild illustrates how intertwined all the top bods are[/url]

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/rothschild-loses-libel-case-and-reveals-secret-world-of-money-and-politics-6720015.html ]The fact that Nat Rothschild lost a libel case when he was named as a political puppet master speaks volumes[/url]

Thats before you add into the mix [url= http://www.****/news/article-1364001/Peter-Mandelson-silent-contact-Prince-Andrew-friend-Jeffrey-Epstein.html ]links to Jeffrey Epstein[/url] and Ghislaine Maxwell...

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[img] :large[/img]

I'd say cash in hand payments to tradesmen cause a VAT loss to HMRC which exceeds benefit fraud

Of course you would !

Financial fraud cases have been very difficult to prove in the UK, a long list of failed attempted prosecutions. That's why HMRC focuses on collecting settlement money and fines and not court cases. Also I don't see how the UK could bring an effective court case against a banker located offshore.

When this info was handed over, back in 2010 so it's not even a current news event really, there was much talk of big tax collections but there have been very few as I'd wager the majority of the money was legit or any tax due was relatively minimal.

Well when you put it like that, I don't know what all the fuss is about either?

Cant the pesky HMRC stop hounding and harassing those poor over-regulated wealth creators, and their modestly paid friends in the city. So they bent the rules a little? But Haven't they suffered enough?!!

🙄

Rape cases are also notoriously difficult to prove. Perhaps we should stop pursuing those too?

It's the Tory election fundraiser tonight. I wonder how many of Dave's guest list will be featuring in future, achingly familiar news reports

Financial fraud cases have been very difficult to prove in the UK, a long list of failed attempted prosecutions

*sorry, did I say ireversible ? I meant invented, by the best doctors money can buy

Binners, there have been convictions. Just google

But that misses the point. No one noticed that HMRC deal man then went on to work at HSBC. Hmmm,,,,

They could be in real trouble in US - damn I am a shareholder - but looks deserved at this rate. Top heavy, poorly performing juggernaut. Needs bloody big clear out

Binners speaks the truth - how many people on this site use accountants to reduce their tax bill via dividends, directors loans, pension funds etc (me included) and I have asked this question before on this forum and no one responded?

If we all and I mean all individuals, organisations who turn a profit in these islands paid the relevant tax we would not have a financial worry again - but there is a problem that unaccou tad profit fuels,pays and supports all political parties and ensures that political class keeps it poses - Christ I sound like a Marxist

Impressive list of folk potentially caught with their cocks in the custard here. Secrecy, what secrecy....

You can explore the leaks [url= http://www.icij.org/project/swiss-leaks/explore-swiss-leaks-data ]here[/url]

Binners I am not saying we shouldn't pursue people whether they be bankers or the clients Inwas just explaining the current status as I saw it.

oldmanmtb - Member
Binners speaks the truth - how many people on this site use accountants to reduce their tax bill via dividends, directors loans, pension funds etc (me included) and I have asked this question before on this forum and no one responded?

I dont but im paye so not really i problem, i also dont begrudge paying tax

Ive also not used C2W to buy a new mtb as I though it was wrong
funnily enough I bought a new commuter this week and wouldve done it thru C2W but we cant use CRC and that was cheaper than using our supplier even with C2W!

jambalaya - Member

Binners I am not saying we shouldn't pursue people......

That's pretty much what you've been implying throughout this thread.

If you are now claiming that you think HMRC should go after these people and prosecute them, then I don't know why you didn't say that 12 hours ago when you first commented.

I think what we've got here is a case of you unable to defend the indefensible, after initially trying to, and now giving up.

Stephen Green - ordained CoE priest.

The combination of religion and high finance makes my skin crawl.

When this info was handed over, back in 2010 so it's not even a current news event really

Presumably the likes of Stuart Hall, Rolf Harris et al should be freed as it was all a long time ago and attitudes have changed etc, and it's not fair that they should be punished for things they did years ago when no one was as bothered about it? 🙄

Shocker a rich person/business/investment bank exploiting loop holes or dodgy tax.

TBF at some point we all been guilty of some sort of dodge dealings (even if its only a few quid)

The German authorities have been much more proactive in using this data to recover taxes and prosecute offenders. They even played mind games giving the dodgers a chance to put their tax affairs in order before revealing who they actually had information on. The director of Bayern Munich (and friend of Merkel) was sent to prison.

The UK has really been dragging their feet on this, and the obvious conclusion is that they were hoping it would go away and tax evasion could go on, unchallenged, as usual.

UK's lax approach may also be due to the fact that a good chunk of the world's Tax Havens are under the jurisdiction of the Queen, as [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Overseas_Territories ]British Overseas Territories[/url], [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_dependencies ]Crown Dependencies[/url] and [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_realm ]Commonwealth Realms[/url]

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Shocker a rich person/business/investment bank exploiting loop holes or dodgy tax.

If you think there is nothing shocking or newsworthy about a Britain's biggest high street bank engaging in criminal activity, which presumably is the purpose of your sarcasm, then it is precisely that sort of attitude which helps to explain why the UK government feels there is little need to punish those responsible.

Are there other categories of criminals who you think don't deserve to be punished ?

MSP tax evasion in Germany is far worse than in the UK. In Germany they think its perfectly legitimate to negotiate a major exemption even though that is against the law (numerous examples inc Steffi Graf the tennis player). The number of Germans with bank accounts in Luxembourg, Lichtenstein or Switzerland far exceeds the Brits. Not least as they drive over the border with a car load of cash.

The UK has collected £135m in taxes as a result of the HSBC revelations and tax / info sharing treating with Switzerland. Perhaps there should have been some prosecutions, we don't know the specifics.

@ernie the tough part with the "criminal activity" charge is if the client signs a statement saying the money is legit the bank is on fairly safe ground and rightly so I would say. The client has done something potentially illegal if subsequently they are dodging tax but its not against the law for a bank to open an account or allow a client to take out cash. The way tax is calculated you make a declaration at the end of the year of your income, if you don't declare it then the offense takes place at that point. How is a Swiss bank (we are speaking of HSBC Switzerland) supposed to know money it received in (say) April 2012 should have been on a tax return filed in Jan 2014. If the money is declared then the tax may be paid from other funds. In the event of interest a Swiss bank pays that out less Swiss tax, perhaps it should be on a UK tax return but that's not the Swiss bank's business.

MSP tax evasion in Germany is far worse than in the UK

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh you were serious 😕

tax evasion in Germany is far worse than in the UK

Alpin or one of our other German resident expats can confirm or refute this but I believe the Finanzamt are not to be messed with they are much worse than our Customs or VAT (I do not include the Revenue side in this comparison as they are pleasant people some of the VAT/Customs types I have seen locally are scary individuals).

@ernie the tough part with the "criminal activity" charge is if the client signs a statement saying the money is legit the bank is on fairly safe ground and rightly so I would say. The client has done something potentially illegal if subsequently they are dodging tax but its not against the law for a bank to open an account or allow a client to take out cash. The way tax is calculated you make a declaration at the end of the year of your income, if you don't declare it then the offense takes place at that point. How is a Swiss bank (we are speaking of HSBC Switzerland) supposed to know money it received in (say) April 2012 should have been on a tax return filed in Jan 2014. If the money is declared then the tax may be paid from other funds. In the event of interest a Swiss bank pays that out less Swiss tax, perhaps it should be on a UK tax return but that's not the Swiss bank's business.

The US, France, and Belgium, are carrying out criminal investigations into the HSBC, but not the UK, at least not up to the point of the Panorama programme.

jambalaya your various posts throughout this thread have gone from attempting to trivialize a scandal which involves Britain's largest high street bank engaging in illegal activities on behalf of extremely wealthy clients, dismissing it as a non-story, to now claiming despite all the evidence that the bank operated legally and aboveboard.

Your trivialization on this thread of this tax evasion scandal and the excuses you provide for not punishing those responsible is in complete contrast to your views on tax evasion on another recent thread.

On the thread concerning the newly elected Greek government you castigated Syriza completely falsely claiming that they aren't committed to stamping out tax evasion.

So the Greek government, which happens to be left-wing, gets fiercely criticized by you for allegedly not being tough enough on tax evasion, while the UK government, which happens to be Tory, gets passionately defended by you when accusations of being soft on tax evasion are leveled at them.

Your ability to vary your moral position from thread to thread to suit your own personal political agenda is quite frankly stunning. Most people would feel at least a tad embarrassed, I'm sure, but I suspect that you are totally unaware of it 🙂

1 prosecution, 13 further cases with the serious fraud office. £135m in taxes and fines collected.

Also a lot of British names on that list who don't owe a penny, for example Phil Collins and David Bowie who both actually live in Switzerland.

French government is "considering" action and a Belgian judge is deciding whethr to issue arrest warrants for HSBC Switzerlands directors. So not much actual action then, UK doesnt look so different in its responce ?

For some action means actual heads on spikes at the tower.

If proved people should be prosecuted to the extent of the law not the mob.

Your ability to vary your moral position from thread to thread to suit your own personal political agenda is quite frankly stunning

I think he just has views at the polar opposite to the actual facts relating to the issue being discussed

French government is "considering" action and a Belgian judge is deciding whethr to issue arrest warrants for HSBC Switzerlands directors. So not much actual action then, UK doesnt look so different in its responce ?

or as the Guardian explained it

While France, Belgium, Spain, the US and Argentina have launched legal proceedings against HSBC and its high net worth clients, the UK’s tax authority has in five years used the data to bring only one prosecution.

Meanwhile, neither HM Revenue and Customs, the Serious Fraud Office nor the Financial Conduct Authority have taken action against HSBC

How do you do this ?
How do you fail to get things like this ?

French government is "considering" action ...

No, the French authorities, unless everyone is lying including the FT, have launched a criminal investigation of the bank. The UK authorities have not yet done so. Remember jambalaya, this is a very old story, as you keep reminding us.

And here's no need for heads on spikes at the tower, is that how benefit cheats are dealt with ?

Use the law to deal with tax cheats, even if they do happen to be extremely wealthy.

And not least because the Treasury loses 15 times more from tax cheats as it does from benefit cheats.

To present another side - launching an investigation is just that. They may have no intent of doing anything but have launched it to be seen to be doing something to manage public expectation.

That may also be bobbins but until anything/anyone is prosecuted launching an investigation is just that.

As has been said before and less relevant here - if govts want to stop tax avoidance change the law to make it impossible. They could do it if they chose yet they don't.

So the French government, for example, has launched a criminal investigation into the activities of the HSBC "to manage public expectation". But having discovered evidence of criminal activity they won't necessarily do anything about it because they presumably don't care about public expectation ?

Yes that sounds quite likely.

And I'm assuming the UK government cares even less about what the public thinks which is why they can't even be bothered to launch a criminal investigation ?

BTW they don't need to change the law to make criminal activity illegal, it already is. As is tax evasion.

To present another side - launching an investigation is just that. They may have no intent of doing anything but have launched it to be seen to be doing something to manage public expectation.

MSP, tax evasion is far worse in Germany due to high tax rates and easy access by road to Luxembourg, Lichtenstein and Switzerland. Suitcases full of cash in the boot of the car

Let's see where these investigations in France and Belgium lead to then. They have had the data since 2009/10 (will double check date) so one would imagine if there was going to be a corporate prosecution there would have been one by now. If someone opens an account in Switzerland and doesn't declare the income/interest to their domestic tax authority there is no offence committed by the bank.

I appreciate there are those here who disagree but HMRC took the view in many cases it was better to collect tax and penalties than pursue prosecutions which may not be successful. One fundamental difference between someone suspected of tax evasion and a benefit cheat is the tax evader often pays the past tax due and a penalty whereas the benefit cheat declines to do so or is unable.

Finally and FWIW I would imagine anyone looking to do a serious amount of tax evasion would not put their money into a major bank like HSBC, much more likely to be a small bank and probably not in Switzerland.

One fundamental difference between someone suspected of tax evasion and a benefit cheat is the tax evader often pays the past tax due and a penalty whereas the benefit cheat declines to do so or is unable.

Guess that's ok then. Is it tory policy to be able to buy your way out of the justice system and escape prosecution? Next time I get a speeding/parking ticket I'll try this approach by offering a few quid to the cop/trafic warden involved.

One fundamental difference between someone suspected of tax evasion and a benefit cheat is the tax evader often pays the past tax due and a penalty whereas the benefit cheat declines to do so or is unable.

😆

So a tax cheat is often someone who has plenty of money and who doesn't actually need the money they have cheated, and can therefore pay it back. On the other hand a benefit cheat is often a poor person who can't pay the money back.

Well that explains why poor cheats are sent to prison while rich cheats go unpunished.

ernie_lynch - Member

Your ability to vary your moral position from thread to thread to suit your own personal political agenda is quite frankly stunning.

Posted 17 hours ago #

dazh don't selectively quote, the point is securing a tax evasion conviction is very hard, the end game is collecting tax. If you go to court with a 10% chance of winning then there is only a 10% chance of getting anything back. Take the deal and move on due to the overly complex tax system.

Also see the number of "I don't want to pay the parking fine even though I parked outside the rules" threads on here

Is it tory policy to be able to buy your way out of the justice system and escape prosecution?

No its HMRC policy and has been for years under governments of all colours.

See [url= http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/prosecutions/crim-inv-policy.htm ]here[/url]

dazh don't selectively quote, the point is securing a tax evasion conviction is very hard, the end game is collecting tax. If you go to court with a 10% chance of winning then there is only a 10% chance of getting anything back. Take the deal and move on due to the overly complex tax system.

Tax evasion cases aren't normally that complex, they are not like city fraud cases. Although, being a cheeky chappy does seem to enable one to get off.

the end game is collecting tax

So maybe we should not bother to prosecute murderers - after all, the end game is bringing people back to life, and punishment has no impact on that.

The problem is that we have a corrupt system of government where party donations enable individuals and companies to have HMRC instructed not to investigate.

Until there is transparency in party funding and loans then the corruption will continue, it is in the interests of both the government and the donors

There is transparency in party funding.

To reinforce my point that tax evasion cases are relatively simple, the conviction rate is 86% and the number of cases being pursued was budgeted to go up from 165 in 2010/11 to over 1100 in 2014/15. See [url= http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/articles/prosecuting_tax_evasion/ ]here for two year old figures[/url]

A timely piece by Owen Jones in todays Guardian

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/10/tories-britain-democracy-auction-party-funds-donors ]The Tories are Putting Democracy up for Auction[/url]

[i]That awful embarrassment of the financial sector plunging the country into economic disaster could have led to all sorts of unseemly demands for tax hikes on the über-rich. A wise investment, then, to back a party that continually reminds us that the nation’s ills are down to benefit claimants, immigrants and public sector workers.[/i]

Oh here we go again - blaming the Tories. No one is forced to vote Tory. And if no one did they wouldn't be able to form a government.

@dazh and @ernie, I am just explaining the thinking that I believe lies behind the approach and the complexities of trying to pursue a prosecution for events which took place in another country and which in themselves where not illegal.

I am all for tax reform and would start by abolishing non-dom status, I would them add compulsory tax audits on individuals like they have in the US, once every 5 years I understand.

In terms of increasing amounts lost to HMRC I imagine something like the following

1) Benefit Fraud
2) Tax evasion by wealthy individuals
3) Tax evasion by tradesmen working cash in hand
4) Tax avoidance by companies abusing EU tax laws with he assistance of friendly countries (eg Ireland, Luxembourg)

Why do you keep banging on that tax fraud is too "complex" for successful prosecution jambalaya, apart from the obvious reason that you are struggling to think of excuses to justify a soft touch towards tax dodgers ?

France is in the process of prosecuting the HSBC for money laundering, how do you explain that, is it because french juries have greater intellectual abilities than UK juries ?

And why do you offer Ireland and Luxembourg as examples of countries friendly to tax dodgers when the UK is an obvious candidate ?

The UK is a paradise for corporate cheats :

[i][b]The UK has one of the most laissez-faire business regimes in the world. Anyone over the age of 16 whether resident in the UK or abroad, with some minor exceptions, can become a company director. Companies can be bought off the shelf for just a few pounds and the identity of their owners can be concealed behind a labyrinth of nominee shareholders and other devices. Nominee directors often act as post-boxes and take their instructions from the real owners, but their identity is concealed. [/i][/b]

[url= http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/prem-sikka/corporate-secrecy_b_5184817.html ]Is the UK Ending Corporate Secrecy? More Spin Than Substance[/url]

Only last week the House of Commons Public Accounts Committee condemned the accountancy firm PricewaterhouseCoopers for [i][b]promoting tax avoidance by multinational firms “on an industrial scale”[/b][/i]

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/pricewaterhousecoopers-condemned-for-giving-misleading-evidence-to-parliament-and-promoting-tax-avoidance-on-an-industrial-scale-10027344.html ]PricewaterhouseCoopers condemned for giving misleading evidence to Parliament and ‘promoting tax avoidance on an industrial scale’[/url]

Someone who has hugely benefited from the UK's status as a tax avoider's paradise is of course Tony Blair. He has channeled millions of pounds through a complicated web of companies so that no one has a clue how much profit the self-serving multimillionaire has made.

And you will note from the link chrismac that we know exactly how much PricewaterhouseCoopers has provided researchers to the offices of Ed Balls, the shadow Chancellor, £64,162, and Chuka Umunna, the shadow Business Secretary £99,550, that's how transparent political funding is.

Will this revelation cost Labour votes ? Well a few but not enough to make a difference - millions will still vote Labour, for old times sake if nothing else.

PricewaterhouseCoopers do of course also give large amounts of money to the Conservative Party, they're not stupid, which helps to explain the UK's friendly attitude towards corporate cheats, crooks and spivs.

Evidence from head of HMRC to Commons Committee

[i]What is written in the newspapers would not pass the test as being evidence
The Fernch and Belgians are considering action
The only countries who have prosecuted anyone is UK and Ireland[/i]

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31425084 ]BBC link[/url]

Tony Blair spends most of his time working abroad so like say, Lewis Hamilton, he manages his affairs accordingly. There is just as much tax advice available in other countries around the world, its a legitimate businesses service to offer. Our tax code is far too complex and is inter-twinned with the EU to further complicate matters, so we should not be surprised its a gold mine for advisors.

Have you actually listened to that committee live?
It was nothing but a public kicking from all members of the committee and both sides of the house.

The only person left on the planet who finds their views as credible and worthy of respect is you.

Homer insisted that HMRC staff had been "diligent" in their approach to the files, and said their record of securing one conviction and £135 million in unpaid tax, fines and interest compared well with other countries.

But Hodge countered that the French tax authorities had recouped £200 million from 3,000 names and the Spanish £180 million from 2,900.

She told the HMRC chief: "It's pretty outrageous what was going on. It's the first time in many of these leaks that there are really strong allegations not of egregious tax avoidance, but of tax evasion, and that is incredibly serious.

"For you to sit there and say, as you are doing, that 'We couldn't get the money in in the same way as the French and Spanish did' and 'We didn't litigate because we wanted to get the money in' and yet you did worse on the money - it leaves me believing that you are not serving the British taxpayer."

Responding to Hodge's comments, Homer insisted: "That is absolutely not the case."

Never been a mauling like that before it was brutal tbh still they have you left to defend their "honour" the lucky sods.

PS the quote [ as I know how much you rely on facts for your views] is

"I believe only we and the Irish have convicted anyone."

She is not even certain about that

jambalaya - Member

Evidence from head of HMRC to Commons Committee

What is written in the newspapers would not pass the test as being evidence
The Fernch and Belgians are considering action
The only countries who have prosecuted anyone is UK and Ireland

BBC link

I can't see that quote anywhere in your link. I doesn't appear to exist. And if it really is a quote did they really misspell "French" ?

Although I am not really interested in the schoolboy excuses HMRC offers when faced with a grilling from the Public Accounts Committee.

The FT reports that France is prosecuting HSBC for money laundering, I accept that as they have no reason to lie. Belgium has already charged HSBC with money laundering. And 2 years ago the US fined HSBC for money laundering.

What has the UK done ?