[Closed] Au Revoir Erasmus

I am a very big supporter of Erasmus, I think it costs about £25-40m pa to be part of it and it has not much to do with the EU. I have little doubt it will be continued. May I suggest you write to your MP

Absolute total garbage. I'll have a wager with you. Erasmus has 33 member countries, EU is of course 28.

Classic journalistic nonsense from Guardian see the word "may". It's like Henny Penny, the sky may fall down. Remain orientated academics are still running their fear and intimidation campaign.

I'm a big fan too, my middle daughter did it. Eldest didn't get an offer but did her mba in Spain.

see the word "may".

Hmmm, Wikipedia article doesn't entirely support Jamba's view.

For example, it seems that Switzerland has been suspended from Erasmus because of their vote to restrict EU immigration.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus_Programme

"As a consequence, Swiss students will not be able to apply for the programme and European students will not be able to spend time at a Swiss university under that programme.[14]"

So just stop Foreign students studying at our highly prized Universities

simple

For example, it seems that Switzerland has been suspended from Erasmus because of their vote to restrict EU immigration.

So just stop Foreign students studying at our highly prized Universities

Nothing like a nice bit of isolationism.

Not at all if we are the best in the world at something then people can pay to be educated or not , it really is that simple

Our universities make an awful lot of money from foreign students, so it's unlikely to be in their business plans to omit foreign students. They would be saying tuition fees would need to go up.

So just stop Foreign students studying at our highly prized Universities

Won't students be fighting over themselves to get here and have the opportunity of studying and working with some of the best tech companies like ARM Holdings?

philxx1975 - Member

So just stop Foreign students studying at our highly prized Universities

simple

That's been Theresa May's policy since the day she entered the home office. Not formally but the constant changes in student visa policy and handling are unavoidably designed to deter students from coming to the UK. (*)

It's easy to say "maybe we'll still be allowed in Erasmus" (though most likely not as a Member, perhaps as a Partner- not the same thing) or "We'll set up a parallel system like the Swiss-Erasmus Mobility Programme". But that assumes goodwill not just on the part of Erasmus but on [i]our[/i] government. And considering how anti-student-immigration they were even before the Brexit vote, that's, er, [i]bold[/i].

The fact that the UK makes fortunes from international students should be a consideration; it isn't. The greatest challenge to international student recruitment in the UK is the UKVI and has been for some time. What makes you think that our approach to EU students, post Brexit, will be any less terrible?

(* What's that UKVI? You've changed the rules so that students at a further education or private college who want to take up a late or clearing place we have available, now have to leave the country and apply for their t4 visa from their home country? Well thanks for that, thanks very much. That'll certainly encourage applicants.)

No doubt someone that knows *-all about it will be along in a minute to say it's all because of abuse of the student visa system. You'll be able to tell they know *-all about it, because nobody who knows [i]anything[/i] about it thinks this.

Bless you Jamba, the gift that keeps on giving, given that the modal verb is your favourite tool.

🙂

It would be quite different if the academics where saying they [b]expected[/b] our withdrawl from Erasmus. They are not, they are expressing an opinionnthat the future is somewhat uncertain. Given Tories enthusiasm for education (ring fenced budgets etc) I can't see how any Tory government would cut this programme.

So just stop Foreign students studying at our highly prized Universities

And when we get some, we can do that!

Seriously,Oxford,Cambridge, Imperial in some disciplines but that's about it. I know the Times higher says it different, just look at the measures

jambalaya - Member

Given Tories enthusiasm for education (ring fenced budgets etc) I can't see how any Tory government would cut this programme.

The Institute for Fiscal Studies begs to differ. According to them :

[url= http://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/8027 ]English schools will feel the pinch over the next five years[/url]

Quote :

[i]....increasing costs and increasing pupil numbers mean that resources per pupil are likely to fall significantly.

...this will be the first time since the mid-1990s that school spending has fallen in real terms (when spending per pupil fell by 3.6% in real terms between 1993 and 1997)[/i]

So according to the IFS spending per pupil is likely to fall significantly in the next four years, and this will be the first time since, yep, you've got it, the last time we had a Tory majority government.

Of course you might be technically correct when you speak of the [i]"Tories enthusiasm for education"[/i], it's just not necessarily enthusiasm for state provided education.

[img] [/img]

No doubt someone that knows *-all about it will be along in a minute to say it's all because of abuse of the student visa system. You'll be able to tell they know *-all about it, because nobody who knows anything about it thinks this.

*cough* Jamba? *cough*

Wikipedia article doesn't entirely support Jamba's view.

people can pay to be educated or not , it really is that simple

It's as if every potential downside to leaving the EU is a complete non issue due to the detailed and robust planning that has gone into the whole process. I'm sure as they work through the negotiations ticking off each little thing it will all get sorted out in favour of the UK.

I did My Erasmus in Finland, to deny students that opportunity would be tragic.

What Northwind sez...And anybody who thinks the Tories care about education needs to improve theirs. Maybe at one of those fine academies they are so keen on?

(* What's that UKVI? You've changed the rules so that students at a further education or private college who want to take up a late or clearing place we have available, now have to leave the country and apply for their t4 visa [u]from their home country[/u]? Well thanks for that, thanks very much. That'll certainly encourage applicants.)

The only criteria is that you're not in the UK

Holiday in France for a 28 days? Visa appointment with one of the many UK visa application "services" there, and a decision is usually less than 3 weeks from receipt of passport at UKVI. Assistance Service sends and receives all documents and passports so potential student just collects from there after 3 weeks sunning themselves in the Pays de la Loire.

Work were informed by British Council who administer Erasmus, that the current submission is being honoured, but that future ones are on hold with no expectation either way on if it goes ahead.

Holiday in France for a 28 days?

and a decision is usually less than 3 weeks from receipt of passport at UKVI. Assistance Service sends and receives all documents and passports so potential student just collects from there after 3 weeks sunning themselves in the Pays de la Loire.

Work were informed by British Council who administer Erasmus, that the current submission is being honoured, but that future ones are on hold with no expectation either way on if it goes ahead.

That's a bit vague. You should put them in touch with Jamba for a definitive answer. 😆

Guys, why all this arguing?
Just look it up in the how to leave Europe hand book. We wouldn't put our whole country in jeopardy without one.
Now doubt some joker will be along to tell me that It doesn't exist.
Has anyone done a month in pro Brexit check list versus a stay check list yet?

We can add the "demise of Erasmus" to the long list of Armageddon events which aren't going to happen. The answer to this question will be apparent in a few years time. We where threatened with an immediate punishment budget (not happening) and a recsession equal to 2008/9 but IMF says GDP will grow at a rate faster than France, Germany etc (although at a slower pace but still no recession as threatened).

Earsmus is a great programme and I have no doubt this and future governments will find the £40-50m to pay for it. Consider even pro EU campaigners pointed out that we "only" send £250m in UK welfare (inc child benefits) to EU citizens living abroad - well that's 5 times the cost of the Erasmus programme

I am a fan of the programme but my daughter said the academic level of the work was mediocre. The other tertiary benefits where very much worthwhile but we shouldn't fool ourselves about the programme being some kind of "gold standard". I wish I'd done it but that was after hearing about it from a friend who studied at Annecy, ie at the foot of a mountain covered in ski runs.

International students are indeed very important to UK universities for a variety of reasons. However, international students doing full time 3 yr plus study are quite different to 1 yr "gap" Erasmus study. I don't have stats at hand but as I understand it international (non-EU) students outnumber EU students on full time degree courses.

Student visas have been cut as a side effect of trying to control immigration. Thats far from ideal. However, its also fair to say the visa scheme has been abused by those seeking to to uk permanently to study then work or indeed just to work, numerous cases of people never turning up to uni after getting a student visa

That's a bit vague. You should put them in touch with Jamba for a definitive answer.

to the long list of Armageddon events which aren't going to happen. The answer to this question will be apparent in a few years time.

Sounds cheap 🙂

Not that I think the current system is a good one. Illegal entrants and those with a view to abusing the system are hardly likely to stick their head above the parapet and go, "Hi UKVI. These are all my details and my passport."
I think it's an imperfect solution to a problem that, although it exists, isn't the biggest one in terms of illegal migration.

It doesn't seem like a solution, and I'm not sure it's a problem - is not a change to the criteria that determine success, is just an artificial and expensive barrier, it just seems vindictive. Maybe I'm biased, my first employer after leaving academia was a start-up that wouldn't have existed without two ex foreign students bring able to stay living here. Bloody immigrants, coming over here, creating our jobs...

Anyway, back to Erasmus - I think it's another entry in the list of thing that I wouldn't worry about at all post-brexit if I had the slightest bit of faith in our government (or the opposition), but I don't. I trusted the unelected, unaccountable officials in Brussels to do the right thing much more than our own politicians.

Someone above said not to worry because most foreign student are non-EU anyway. 2 friends who run under and post-grad programmes at universities have said that early signs are of a downturn in interest in studying here from Asia, because of fear of research cuts and for undergrads, the perceived lack of opportunities to travel in the rest of Europe from uk in future, seems that many see us as an English speaking gateway to the wider world.

Jamba 🙄

Do you think that ERASMUS students do different modules to other students, you or your daughter saying the level of the accedeemic work is mediocre is utter bobbins. Some modules were challenging, some not so much some were a doddle, exactly the same as where I did the rest of my degree in Bangor.

We where threatened with an immediate punishment budget (not happening) and a recsession equal to 2008/9 but IMF says GDP will grow at a rate faster than France, Germany etc (although at a slower pace but still no recession as threatened).

Also got me thinking, nice thing about the IMF is you can read everything they say...

“Brexit has thrown a spanner in the works,” said Maurice Obstfeld, IMF Chief Economist and Economic Counsellor. And with the event still unfolding, the report says that it is still very difficult to quantify potential repercussions.

The economies of the United Kingdom (U.K.) and Europe will be hit the hardest by fallout from the June 23 referendum, which prompted a change of government in Britain. Global growth, already sluggish, will suffer as a result, putting the onus on policy makers to strengthen banking systems and deliver on plans to carry out much-needed structural reforms.

In particular, policymakers in the U.K. and the European Union (EU) will play a key role in tempering uncertainty that could further damage growth in Europe and elsewhere, the IMF said. It called on them to engineer a “smooth and predictable transition to a new set of post-Brexit trading and financial relationships that as much as possible preserves gains from trade between the U.K. and the EU.”

http://www.imf.org/external/country/GBR/

So basically you could get the bit that UK will be slightly better off now than France and Germany but all 3 are worse off than they would have been so lose lose?

But it might improve. It could be better for everyone.

The economies of the United Kingdom (U.K.) and Europe will be hit the hardest by fallout from the June 23 referendum, which prompted a change of government in Britain. [b]Global growth[/b], already sluggish, will suffer as a result, putting the onus on policy makers to strengthen banking systems and deliver on plans to carry out much-needed structural reforms.

See that's the spirit CPt , that's the spirit 😉

I do not believe the IMF or anyone other Brexiteers have ever said this turmoil/uncertainty/change will be a great boost for global economic trade

It [i]could[/i]. It [i]might[/i].

As Jamba says we really need to wait and see for the long term impact.
Maybe a decade or two to see the real long term.

Maybe a decade or two to see the real long term.

That should be fun given the short-term view taken by those ostensibly in charge.

Best bit about the long term impact is it will take 10 to 20 years of shit to get there, better for everyone.... Meanwhile uncertainty pain for people who really don't need it and are about to become pawns in a game about being in control

The Flying Ox - Member

Holiday in France for a 28 days? Visa appointment with one of the many UK visa application "services" there, and a decision is usually less than 3 weeks from receipt of passport at UKVI

Yes, and leaving the UK and coming back at short notice is completely free and hassle free, and gives a welcoming and reassuring message to the student. This is the nature of the beast; no policy says "no to foreign students" but every policy says "let's make it harder, more expensive, and most importantly less welcoming."

3 weeks is the [i]average[/i] turnaround currently according to our UKVI premier agent (who admittedly does make things up all the time so I don't want to put too much faith in that). Some we've seen are significantly longer, even without the need for ATAS. And if you have to challenge a decision which is increasingly common, that slows things down. 80% of all challenged decisions are overturned, incidentally, which gives a pretty clear indictment of how well the system works and why the challenge process is getting slower as deadlines approach- they're overrun with wrong decisions. Luckily a good proportion of challenges are quick, a week or so, because all they have to do is look at the obvious factual errors and go "dur".

We talk about going home because that's the most sensible way to do it. UKVI considers applying from a third country undermines the credibility of an applicant, and it reduces access to services etc, especially when working with an agent as many are. (yes you can go to and pay for a french visa support service. How good is your french?)

But regardless, this is just one throwaway example and nobody can put a positive spin on it, even if we accept all of your points the end result would still be- more cost, more hassle, less certainty, more worry, less welcoming.

As Jamba says we really need to wait and see for the long term impact.

Er, we haven't left yet (and probably never will).....

If we don't ever trigger Article 50, we'll never find out just how bad it could / will be...

If we don't ever trigger Article 50, we'll never find out just how bad it could / will be...

And if we do trigger it then we'll never really know if the UK and the EU entered economic disaster/prosperity because we left or despite it.

I opened my email this morning to find we have been successfull in an Erasmus bid, and I will be frequently working in the forests, beaches and parks of Denmark, Slovakia and Estonia for the next couple of years. 8)

Congratulations.

Congrats Matt! Enjoy!