Very often I find it comes from a sad place of personal loss or confusion. Your kid is dead / sick / not meeting your expectations and it’s a much nicer story to blame the Vaccines than just getting on with it.
So I can be empathetic with an individual Antivaxxer but as a thing it can go **** itself along with anyone promoting it.
Nicely put - I know a couple of what I'd call "vaccine sceptics" rather than full on rabid anti vaxxers, and it started with issues with their kids that they would like to think are down to vaccine but to my untrained eye (and MrsMC's slightly more qualified eye) are more likely down to sheer bad luck in one case and shit parenting in the other.
Good points. Thanks!
Individual anti-vaxxers aren't a problem. It's the ones that shout constantly on social media and insist that everyone who doesn’t follow their misguided belief is an idiot or one of the steeple. The fact that it has become a forcefully vocal "movement" is a problem
This is precisely what I would like to understand. Someone is doing what they think is the right thing, and is accused of being malicious and selfish as a result. Why is it so hard to quietly and politely disagree like people do over Brexit or politics?
They have decided it’s the right thing. No amount of well researched, reviewed and repeatable science will alter that decision.
That’s the root of my problem with anti-vaccine types.
However it also seems that any crackpot allegation can be swallowed whole and it’s everyone elses’ job to “do their own” research.
But... They’re happy to go along with the science, knowledge and engineering that goes I to their phones, internet, cars, TVs. They’ll expect the ER doctor to save them or their kids.
By and large ‘malicious’ likely isn’t appropriate, but some figures in the business (yes, lots of it is a business selling snake oil) definitely could be described that way.
As for ‘selfish’, many seem happy to accept the benefits of most others in their society being vaccinated - hence herd immunity & a lack of which ever disease they’re refusing the vaccine for being widespread.
They’ll take the benefit of all the others’ exposure to a (very tiny) risk, and bleat on about what idiots they are to have done it.
My uncle is very prone to believing any conspiracy theory going around so naturally states he won't be having the vaccine when he's offered it. No explaining or presenting evidence would convince him to rethink. That was until my mum said he won't be allowed to visit her if he refuses it. Seeing as he lives a very lonely life (single, lives alone, very few friends thanks to his views) he had to strongly think about the repercussions of that. He tried saying what was the difference as he hasn't been vaccinated now and was still allowed to visit. Mum calmly explained to him that at the moment he hasn't had to make a choice, when he does and refuses to have it she will take that as him being a higher risk of carrying it as he's more vulnerable unvaccinated as opposed to vaccinated. He had a long, hard think about this over christmas and today came out saying he will take it when he's offered it.
It's the first time he's ever openly admitted changing his opinion on something!
The UKs position on the chicken pox vaccine is interesting – better for kids to get the disease rather than have unvaccinated adults get it later on when it’s more serious.
I got it when I was 21, parents thought I was immune as I hadn't picked it up when all my friends had it in primary school despite 'Pox Parties' etc. Would have much preferred to have it when I was young or taken a vaccine.
Not many people are dying from chicken pox (less than 100 per year) so even without vaccine that doesn't seem like cause for concern. Taking the same approach with Covid has seen 70,000+ deaths in less than a year and that was with lockdowns. Not really comparable is it.
It’s the first time he’s ever openly admitted changing his opinion on something!
Sadly, it’s the only way for many. They can’t get their heads around the very real benefits of vaccines, because it is mostly a societal benefit, that they benefit from whether they take the vaccine or not (assuming enough other people do). Society has to make opportunities dependent on vaccination to persuade them there is a direct personal benefit of taking it. That can be at the family level, like your mum has done with her brother, or it can be at the governmental level, such as restricting travel or entertainment opportunities for those refusing to be vaccinated.
Society has to make opportunities dependent on vaccination to persuade them there is a direct personal benefit of taking it.
That’s not persuasion. That’s forcing them. This isn’t a police state. Forcing people to take medicines isn’t how we do things. And it’s not necessary.
That’s not persuasion. That’s forcing them. This isn’t a police state. Forcing people to take medicines isn’t how we do things.
No, this is not a police state. Nor would it be if some of the benefits of the society we live in are dependent on us accepting our responsibilities to others living in it, whether that is about family, friends, the local community, fellow travellers, or on a much larger scale.
And it’s not necessary.
That depends on the vaccine, and what it is trying to prevent, and how large the anti-vaccine movement is. I was just saying that giving anti-vaccine hold outs a very real personal implication of their choice is, for some, the only way to move their position. Be that family, friends, employers, companies, or the government… I’m not saying the UK government need to do any such thing at this point, with any of the current vaccines, or the new ones heading our way for this Coronavirus that we’re all currently making sacrifices to try and contain while we wait.
acquaintance of a friend won't have the vaccine. don't remember or wasn't told the reasoning and couldn't care less tbh. offered some class a drugs knocked up in some ****'s lock-up though they're all over them like a fire blanket. people are strange.
That’s not persuasion. That’s forcing them. This isn’t a police state. Forcing people to take medicines isn’t how we do things. And it’s not necessary.
When you've got a disease killing as many people as covid, I'd say it's fine to restrict people's access to public activities in enclosed spaces if they refuse to take a vaccine. Being refused on a flight or not being allowed into a cinema seems perfectly reasonable in the circumstances. They have a choice, it has consequences.
Being refused on a flight or not being allowed into a cinema
I'd add access to apply for certain jobs to the list too.
And if you think that's a police state you've lived a very sheltered life precious.
I believe people have the right tonrefuse a vaccine for themselves and their children. However as they present a risk and there is "vital interest" of others they would have to be excluded from many environments including school, universities, hospitality, workplaces etc.
I have concerns about the speed of approval and manufacture of the various vaccines (i spent 14 years of my life in steriles manufacture as an engineer)
But i will still accept the vaccine for the benefit of everyone.
We currently don't have the luxury of abstention.
Boris just needs to man up and do what Jacinda Ardern has done and pass a law that makes mandatory vaccinations possible.
I suspect in a near future other countries could refuse to accept arrivals that can't prove they've had the vaccine, too. This nicely offloads the blame and the police state accusations, and I wonder how many will change their minds when the idiots discover the Costa del Sol or the Alps are off limits 🙂
Boris just needs to man up and do what Jacinda Ardern has done and pass a law that makes mandatory vaccinations possible.
Except she hasn’t 🤷♂️
you’ve lived a very sheltered life precious
Ive lived in the same country as you where there has been no compulsory vaccination.
Because there has been no need for it.
The fact that vaccine hesitancy hasn’t stopped vaccines working would seem to undermine all the hatred for those people.
That’s not persuasion. That’s forcing them. This isn’t a police state. Forcing people to take medicines isn’t how we do things. And it’s not necessary.
No, we can't and shouldn't force them. But equally, it's fair to make certain things only accessible to those that have been vaccinated. As with RJ's uncle, they won't do it unless they get something out of it and 'for the greater good' doesn't seem to count as getting something out of it.
I also wonder if a proportion of the anti-covid vaxxers aren't really anti-vax, they're just jumping on a bandwagon as a means of sticking it to the government. I'm no fan of HMG, but I can still view things issue by issue, rather than knee jerk against anything they propose.
I suspect in a near future other countries could refuse to accept arrivals that can’t prove they’ve had the vaccine
I would be the height of irony if access to flying in contrail makers was the driving force to getting anti vaxxers to take their medicine.
The fact that vaccine hesitancy hasn’t stopped vaccines working would seem to undermine all the hatred for those people.
there is a difference between those who have vaccine hesitancy and anti-vaxxers. i have no problem with those who are wary. those who preach to others using emotive 'arguments' and bad information/outright lies are not reasonable individuals and deserve condemnation.
I'm a bit concerned about this whole vaccine tbh , no one seems to have an idea how long its active and there still seems to be no follow up on how long antibodies last after covid, ive tested positive for antibodies 6 months after getting covid but two people on my wife's ward have had it twice despite testing negative for three months and having antibodies. So for this to be seen as a final fix everyone should take seems a load of rubbish. I'm waiting for them to realise this new strain is the vaccine;)
I also wonder if a proportion of the anti-covid vaxxers aren’t really anti-vax, they’re just jumping on a bandwagon as a means of sticking it to the government. I’m no fan of HMG, but I can still view things issue by issue, rather than knee jerk against anything they propose.
Given the damage "sticking it to the government" has done to this country bin recent years this may well be true.
I suspect in a near future other countries could refuse to accept arrivals that can’t prove they’ve had the vaccine, too. This nicely offloads the blame and the police state accusations, and I wonder how many will change their minds when the idiots discover the Costa del Sol or the Alps are off limits
I think this is going to happen too. Not necessarily for everywhere but places like New Zealand that aren't massive thoroughfares for international traffic could do so.
We’ve got a couple at work who aren’t normally the anti vax types but have decided that the COVID vaccine is everything that’s awful and are refusing to have it. Two of them are now going on about face masks and how “evidence” shows that they don’t work. Not that they can actually point to any of this “evidence”
The worrying thing is that I work in healthcare so would expect these people to have an ounce of common sense or intelligence. I was clearly expecting a bit too much from them.
no one seems to have an idea how long its active
It could take generations to find that out. It's not something that science can tell.... only time
The problem is Allen that any evidence seems to suggest 3 to 6 months depending on the person so it all seems pretty pointless unless you actually test for antibodies regularly and keep vaccinating people
Yearly vaccinations for the at risk and key workers is a very real possibility. We do that with other vaccines already.
The problem is Allen that any evidence seems to suggest 3 to 6 months depending on the person so it all seems pretty pointless unless you actually test for antibodies regularly and keep vaccinating people
That's immunity after infection.... I was replying re: how long the vaccine lasts
I have concerns about the speed of approval and manufacture of the various vaccines (i spent 14 years of my life in steriles manufacture as an engineer)
But i will still accept the vaccine for the benefit of everyone.
Have you not bothered to read the links I posted above? As I’ve pointed out a number of times, and the details are right there above, the BioNTech technology has been in development since the 1970’s, and was in use against previous COVID viruses, SARS and MERS, it only required tweaking to prove effective against SARS-COVID-2.
Go back and read the articles.
Ive lived in the same country as you where there has been no compulsory vaccination.
Because there has been no need for it.
The fact that vaccine hesitancy hasn’t stopped vaccines working would seem to undermine all the hatred for those people.
Jesus H Christ! There was no need for compulsory vaccination because there were no ****wits on social meeja spouting conspiracy theories to convince people not to be vaccinated! Parents had their kids vaccinated because it was the sensible thing to do, having either seen the effects that Measles, Scarlet Fever, Mumps, etc, can have on themselves, friends and family, and not wanting to see their kids suffer the same. Measles can kill, flu can and does kill, roughly 100 million people died globally in 1919, chickenpox can be very damaging and unpleasant, scarlet fever, which I had as a child, can cause scarring of the heart leading to issues later in life, mumps can cause sterility.
Common sense and personal experience, often tragedy, encouraged parents to protect their children, something that you seem to be completely devoid of.
I suspect in a near future other countries could refuse to accept arrivals that can’t prove they’ve had the vaccine, too. This nicely offloads the blame and the police state accusations, and I wonder how many will change their minds when the idiots discover the Costa del Sol or the Alps are off limits 🙂
Absolutely this. I've posted previously that if Spain demanded a COVID vaccination certificate as a condition of entry and Weatherspoons did the same we'd have at least 90% coverage in the UK
Count zero my comments were more aimed at the bulk manufacturing side of sterile injectables.. i was on the receiving end of the FDA and MHRA audits on an annual basis. Not claiming to be an expert but i did have responsibility for engineering validation and ran a massive retrospective validation project at GSK ( long time ago)
I just remember how much effort went into commissioning and validating compact lines for a new product.
The thing i find most annoying about it is when you get the arguments that the 'scientists' - usually Whitty if they actually have to put a name to them - are not disinterested parties because they have shares in the 'Vax' companies.
This is particularly galling to anyone with even a passing knowledge of the history of the most recent incarnation of the 'Anti-Vax' movement, and the involvement of Andrew Wakefield. The original poster boy of the movement pushed for single dose vaccines rather than the combined MMR because of falsified research linking the MMR vaccine to autism, and thus a movement was born. Wakefield genuinely did have a financial incentive to change policy as an investor in the single dose alternatives, but somehow he manages to escape this charge because, well, i don't really know why.
The other thing about Wakefield, and what makes his story more widely important, is the aftermath. Having lost his licence to practice in the wake of the scandal of his doctored research, what alternatives were now open to him? He has been able to make a subsequent career by doubling down on his lies, and adopting the persona of the valiant fighter for truth surrounded by dark forces that would extinguish his shining light. How much does he make giving speeches to the movement he created? How is he now funded?
You can add him to the roll call of c**ts who have chosen grifting over grafting.
Yep, Wakefield has a lot to answer for and definitely brought it into mainstream as prior to that almost everyone was just having vaccine without even thinking about it. Throw in today's social media channels and we have the mess we have now.
I still think the way to handle it is for anyone offered the vaccine who refuses it to be marked as such so they can be kept away from others and also be treated as a lower priority if they catch cover.
Common sense and personal experience, often tragedy, encouraged parents to protect their children, something that you seem to be completely devoid of.
To use your own words above, have you not bothered to read my posts? Since when was I an antivaxxer? And what do you know about my background?
Such hostility from people arguing that other people need to be more caring and think of people around them...
Such hostility from people arguing that other people need to be more caring and think of people around them…
Whilst I agree with your point, if you've been around here any length of time you'll know that's how it works 🤷♂️
Your follow up comments suggest you are taking an open minded, devil's advocate stance with your questions, but in this place, at this time, don't be surprised if some on here come out with guns blazing. It's a very raw and scary time for a lot of us.
Such hostility from people arguing that other people need to be more caring and think of people around them…
It's a common trait with many 'left leaning' folk, I've found - and I'm far from alone in my thoughts. They hammer kindness and compassion down your throats and then viciously attack anyone that doesn't toe their virtue signalling line
My parents had me vaccinated for everything that they could. I'm now 66,and the only major infectious diseases I have had are mumps at age 5,and two goes at chickenpox. Not sure if I have any problems due to the mumps,but I have had two outbreaks of shingles as an adult, and I really wish there had been a vaccine available ,I found shingles very painful. My children have had every vaccination available on the NHS.
Such hostility from people arguing that other people need to be more caring and think of people around them…
It’s a common trait with many ‘left leaning’ folk, I’ve found – and I’m far from alone in my thoughts.
Almost as common as the tendency of the right-leaning folks to paint themselves as the victims as they kneel on the necks of the unfortunates.
are not disinterested parties because they have shares in the ‘Vax’ companies.
Which is of itself a daft argument, as anyone even remotely engaged in the economics of healthcare will tell you, there's no money in curing acute disease, all the profit's to be made in managing chronic illness, which is the opposite of what a successful vaccine is...
I also question where the disinformation comes from. In the past it's been generally lone individuals and in my previous field 'anyone with an opinion and an internet connection' can be a real pain to counter.
But in a major area like this, and with the tools to segment and target certain demographics (eg: as seen on electioneering) I'm not closed to the idea that state actors might also be targeting with a view to disrupting vaccine uptake and hence economic recovery and internal unrest. My own conspiracy theory!
Absolutely this. I’ve posted previously that if Spain demanded a COVID vaccination certificate as a condition of entry and Weatherspoons did the same we’d have at least 90% coverage in the UK
I reckon 'sticking it' to the government is only a small part of it. As with lots of stuff I would put much of it down to good old attention seeking. The need to be perceived as 'different' to somehow have a voice.
This will soon be sorted out when flat-roofed pubs and package holiday companies refuse entry to the unvaccinated.
“people in this country have had enough of experts”
M.Gove. MP.
Stuff like that doesn't help either. You can't weaponise stupidity for political gain then complain when that stupidity hinders a genuine response to a genuine problem.
I reckon ‘sticking it’ to the government is only a small part of it. As with lots of stuff I would put much of it down to good old attention seeking. The need to be perceived as ‘different’ to somehow have a voice.
Or...sticking it to those virtue-signaling mask-wearing globalist leftards who push their masks down our throats just before they viciously beat us to the floor with soy-batons in the name of their pro-vaxx ‘virtue’ agenda.
Why? Because of their ‘oh-so-(in)SINcere’ signaling requirements to make themselves feel better about their horrible selves as they literally spit on us freedom-loving patriots. Why? Because we know their Chinuhglobalist cultural Marxinist homosecularist plan for the World. It’s like some meta-projecting, er, projecting. </satire>
But not only does the president still refuse to model the very simple behavior that could help curb transmission of the illness; he also mocks those who do as arbiters of political correctness. He implies that mask-wearing is best understood as an act of personal brand management—a show like any other. One more virtue signal. One more act of smug condescension. The logic of political correctness, as he sees it, leaves no room for good faith, no space for altruism. It’s PR, all the way down. Asked why he refused to wear a mask during a visit to a Ford plant earlier this month, the president explained: “I didn’t want to give the press the pleasure of seeing it.”
One thing (among countless things) that confuses me is how do the Trumpians square away Trumps anti-mask virtue-signaling with Trump’s actual pro-vaxx virtue-signaling?
Which is of itself a daft argument, as anyone even remotely engaged in the economics of healthcare will tell you, there’s no money in curing acute disease, all the profit’s to be made in managing chronic illness, which is the opposite of what a successful vaccine is…
This doesn't make sense to me. Making money from the vaccine would be in addition to managing chronic illnesses which will continue to occur regardless.
In fact, keeping people alive means there's more chance of them needing repeated care in the future.
This doesn’t make sense to me.
Is that another devil’s advocate position? Or does it really not make sense to you?
Making money from the vaccine would be in addition
Pfizer have agreed to supply the vaccine at cost...so no, there’s literally no money to be made curing acute disease.
