Perhaps the antivaxxers shouldn’t take it, let Darwinian natural selection take its course!
The couple behind BioNTech
Completely OT, but these guys clearly didn’t read much sci-fi or play video games. That’s a name pulled straight from the big book of evil and sinister company names. Fuel for the anti vaccine weirdos 😀
Just like calling a voting systems company Dominion
Don’t ever argue with the world’s biggest snowflakes because even though irony is their kryptonite, their self-imploding has a blast-radius. You will be a casualty in some way.
My only response to any of the anti brigade is “crack on its your life”
Except, it isn't.
Vaccinations don't just protect the people getting the jab, it protects those who cannot have it what whatever reason. In refusing it they're not only putting their own idiot self at risk but also those who are variously immunocompromised. They could in a very real sense kill someone else.
Some friends,in their 50’s,have categorically stated they won’t be having the vaccine.
They believe the vaccine,and lockdown rules,are just unnecessary state control.
I'd be finding better friends if I were you. Life's too short to spend it in the company of roasters.
Please they have moved on from Gnome sequencing, times too short for that....
Gnome sequencing
❓❓
Have afew on Faceache (mostly from school that paid no attention back then but are now self professed virologists it seems) I tend to 'unfollow' them so the kibble they post doesnt clutter up my timeline. Just get called one of the 'sheeple' if you mention pesky things like science or facts, so just leave 'em to it now.
"Vaccinations don’t just protect the people getting the jab, it protects those who cannot have it what whatever reason. In refusing it they’re not only putting their own idiot self at risk but also those who are variously immunocompromised."
You have proof of this?
According to Matt Hancock on R4 last week, while the vaacine is effective at protecting the personvaccinated it is still unknown whether they may still be carriers, able to pass the virus on to those at risk...
Or how long the vaccine is effective...
As Mark Twain once said
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”
carbonfiend
Free MemberBoss “what if it causes cancer ”
Mother****er, bacon causes cancer, but by boxing day my body will be 11% pig.
You have proof of this?
According to Matt Hancock on R4 last week, while the vaacine is effective at protecting the personvaccinated it is still unknown whether they may still be carriers, able to pass the virus on to those at risk…
Exactly. People who support the vaccine make up stuff about it just as people make up stuff who oppose the vaccine.
The facts are;
- We don't know whether a vaccinated person can transmit
- We don't know the long term affects (what if a problem is caused by it in 3 years time?)
- We don't know how long it works for so if not getting revaccinated in time is that a risk
Overall, with the impact the virus is having I would say that outweighs the above and as long as majority of people have it is will be enough to clear all the space in hospitals for this that don't want to have it. It will also be fair enough if those people end up in hospital.
Anti-vaxxers. I don't know why it's worth getting angry about them. They'll be subject to less civil liberties than those that have had the needle anyway. For instance they'll likely be banned from travel (the lorry drivers currently can't cross the channel until they've been tested) and they'll likely be unable to get a job too. I suppose they could take up dog breeding or selling roasted chestnuts on Westminster Bridge but placate yourself with the likelihood that they'll be forever ostracized for their choice. Leave Facebook that would be my advice.
Exactly. People who support the vaccine make up stuff about it just as people make up stuff who oppose the vaccine.
I think the post you're taking exception with (Cougar's) referred to vaccines - not just the current Covid one. I think it's well established that vaccines have protected those not vaccinated many cases - smallpox being the obvious example with polio, measles and, I'm sure, many more to look at.
Getting vaccinated will have an indirect effect on others though, as it means there will be fewer people admitted to hospital with Covid so that frees up a bed for mr or mrs Antivaxxer when they need it. (By which time they will probably be greatful for anythng they can be given to help them breathe normally again.) Sure it won't be all the anti vaxers, but as the vaccinated population grows the proportion of anti-vaxxers presenting with severe covid will most likely grow.
Why do people get so het up about antivaxxers? They can only pass on these things if they get them, and if vaccines work the herd immunity will mean they won’t get them, and even if they did almost nobody would catch it off them anyway.
And if we are to argue that they’re still selfish because there’s an incredibly small chance they could pass it on to someone who can’t be vaccinated, do we not then have to take drastic action not to be just as selfish and, say, wear masks at all times even after COVID in case we catch and pass on measles despite being vaccinated, as does happen, or stop driving our cars even well within the speed limit because a child could still jump out in front of us?
It’s very easy to be hypocritical here.
Can it not be like politics where it is OK for someone to have the opposite opinion to ours?
and, say, wear masks at all times even after COVID in case we catch and pass on measles despite being vaccinated, as does happen, or stop driving our cars even well within the speed limit because a child could still jump out in front of us?
Do you really require an answer to this question?
Do you really require an answer to this question?
No, it’s rhetorical.
There are plenty of things we all do that are far more of a danger to others than not getting vaccinated, so why are we so on their case?
Making up ridiculously over the top examples of things we could do to make society very slightly safer while engendering huge amounts of hassle to try and prove a point is... well... fallacious nonsense.
There is an obvious balancing of 'ability to conduct everyday life without excess amounts of hassle' vs 'level of public safety'. You can argue about exactly where on that spectrum we should place ourselves but having a vaccine is such a minor hassle with potentially huge benefits for society - yes you are free not to take it but we are also free to think that's selfish.
There are plenty of things we all do that are far more of a danger to others than not getting vaccinated
Like what? Driving? I'm all for dramatically reducing driving, but as it stands is a major part of how our society functions - so the comparison is totally bogus.
The answer to most of these questions... including family anti whatever brexit voting redwall voters trump voters is as i have stated elsewhere about 50% of the people simply dont have the mental ability or education to understand the basic facts of how the world actually turns added to an inability to recognise how they are manipulated. The term thick is derogatory but not inaccurate.
These people have been enabled to come into the light by Trump Farage Boris Vote Leave and many more bit players. They have in my opinion become self perpetuating like a big flock of sheep running blindly at fences and off cliffs.
The rest of us can not convince them of anything so we have to simply let them charge about until they die out (metaphorically)
Boris has monumental challenges (not including Covid) and this presents the opportunity going forward. I think Boris will have just gained fresh support from the Tory heartlands if not the ERG, this means he is less likely to resign and this leaves Sunak Rabb Gove in the position of having to eat the shit sandwich that is the UK economy- not sure they or any other cabinet members want that - they actually needed a clean break from Boris to reestablish the Tory Party, Boris thinks he has won the war but as Churchill found out post war politics was not good for him.
WTO Hard Brexit would have been a bigger disaster for the economy but a far better play for the Tories with Boris kicked into the weeds. Sunaks one man band PR campaign looks lost.
The ERG Vote Leave ideology of destroy and rebuild has gone, possibly for good, there is little doubt Boris has folded and kept his feet under the EU table regardless of how they paint it, but this deal will have really pissed off a lot of hardline Tories and rabid Brexiteers.
The true hard right Tories have not established themselves.. Boris has clipped their wings.
chrispo
Free MemberWhy do people get so het up about antivaxxers?
They kill people.
I've not got much of a problem with an antivaxxer, singular. But plural, they are a spreading disease. And like every disease, nobody just spontaneously catches antivax, you get it from another person who's already caught it, and then you give it to someone else.
Why do people get so het up about antivaxxers?.
Because children miss out on vaccines because their parents are anti-vaxxers.
Because some people have genuine medical reasons for not getting a vaccine, so they are put at risk when diseases like measles reappear.
As we have seen with smallpox and almost with polio, vaccination makes it possible to eliminate some diseases altogether. Anti-vaxxers sabotage this.
They kill people.
Anti-vaxxers sabotage this.
they are put at risk when diseases like measles reappear.
But not to any massive extent.
We all make choices that we believe to be justified but could cause ourselves or others harm.
I’m just interested in why such vitriol is reserved specifically for these people.
They believe they’re doing the right thing, and they’re definitely not all thick.
Do you hate smokers and speeding drivers with the same passion? Or Tory voters? Etc etc.
they arent "anti-vax", they are "pro disease" as they are actively promoting the spread of whichever organism they are happy to see kill people. it is that simple, education, social media, an interative vote on loose women etc.... are just distractions. at the end of the day as an antivaxer your are deliberately supporting another organism against the survival of members of your own species (usually the more vulnerable ones)...this makes you a bit of a ****
Do you hate smokers and speeding drivers with the same passion? Or Tory voters?
Smokers, no, particularly now they have to smoke outside. Speeding drivers do get quite a bit of vitriol from some on here. Tory voters definitely, they've probably caused considerably more deaths in the UK than anti-vaxers.
They kill people.
But not to any massive extent.
Well thats ok then.
We all make choices that we believe to be justified but could cause ourselves or others harm.
I’m just interested in why such vitriol is reserved specifically for these people.
They believe they’re doing the right thing, and they’re definitely not all thick.
Do you hate smokers and speeding drivers with the same passion? Or Tory voters? Etc etc.
Firstly, trying to justify the aggrevated idiocy of antivaxxers by saying other people do bad things is a as shit an argument as saying why do we get so worked up by bike thieves when there are fraudsters and muggers about?
It's worthy of vitriol because as a movement it manipulates people at their most vulnerable (grieving parents etc) and causes them act against their own and societies best interest. A lot of antivaxxers are ableists as well. It's also only a thing that's tenable from a position of immense privilege with good health care and low rates of disease.
From a personal perspective my mum got into anti vax stuff in the 80s, which led to me missing the mumps vaccination and spending 6 months of my final year at uni very ill. It's idiocy with real world consequences for other people.
Tory voters definitely, they’ve probably caused considerably more deaths in the UK than anti-vaxers.
Yep and there are way more of those than anti vaxxers. As long as the people who need the vaccine get it quickly and it works then I don't really care about people who don't want it but they should probably get to the back of the queue if needing hospital treatment if they get Covid.
I’m just interested in why such vitriol is reserved specifically for these people. [...] and they’re definitely not all thick.
I don't have vitriol for them, I think it's sad TBH. Although the two women I know personally who're anti-vaxxers are honestly deserving of some mental health help, or at the very least; counselling, as it's just a small part of their issues. The thing for me about all these sorts of conspiracies is just the idiocy of them. This is exactly the same problem that ended up with Mary Toft, and that was back in the 18thC. (and the men that examined her weren't thick either) Credulous idiots who make the rest of society just that little bit harder to navigate than it needs to be, just as epicyclo points out, lots of folk in this country are literally too stupid to know any better. That and the fact that we haven't really progressed much past the 18th C makes me a bit sad...
Mary Toft
Lol. That was new to me. Was that the inspiration for magicians pulling rabbits out of a hat?
That was new to me
Partner is a lecturer @ Manchester Uni, and specialises in 18th C Lit. It's interesting that as the period that can be fairly described as "Early Modern" it's surprising how similar their world is to ours, Shopping as a leisure activity, wide spread access to media for every-one (including your servants and wives, shockingly!) political fake news, conspiracies, it's all their just as it is now, there's nothing new in the world. some anti-vaxxers would fit right in...
Nothing new in the world
I’d never heard of mary toft either, but she’s hardly the first, I recall a case about mary and joseph, hardly surprising though, she would have been stoned to death if she’d admitted to shagging around.
Some people are pretty gullible, they don’t deserve vitriol for it though, they can’t help having an undiagnosed LD.
Do you hate smokers and speeding drivers with the same passion? Or Tory voters?
Yep - smokers who inflict it on their kids at home, drivers going too fast for the road conditions (within or without the actual speed limit) and Tory voters are all selfish idiots who don't care about the wider consequences of their choices. Just like anti-vaxxers.
don’t care about the wider consequences of their choices
Are there times when it is acceptable to put family before community?
If your child is more likely to be harmed by the vaccine than by the disease it aims to prevent, it’s not a straightforward decision. We are preprogrammed to protect our children.
If your child is more likely to be harmed by the vaccine than by the disease it aims to prevent, it’s not a straightforward decision
Yes. Not a common scenario though, is it ? What characteristic of a child (or vaccine) do you have in mind ?
If your child is more likely to be harmed by the vaccine than by the disease it aims to prevent, it’s not a straightforward decision. We are preprogrammed to protect our children
What disease are you referring to and what vaccine? How have you calculated the relative risk of harm? Was any of your research conducted on YouTube while having a shit?
Nice "appeal to emotion" at the end. Straight out the proplague handbook.
I’m just interested in why such vitriol is reserved specifically for these people.
They believe they’re doing the right thing, and they’re definitely not all thick.
No, they’re worse, they’re malicious and ignorant, and self-centred. The only thing that’s important to them is themselves, the greater good does not concern them, they could bulk buy gravestones engraved ‘It’s all about ME’.
Your continued support for that mindset makes you almost as bad, try as you might to deny it.
If your child is more likely to be harmed by the vaccine than by the disease it aims to prevent, it’s not a straightforward decision.
In the event that my children were faced with that, then yes, it would be a dilemma.
But in 17 years of every vaccination required for the UK and a few foreign visits, that hasn't occurred. So can you provide a real example rather than internet whataboutery please
Some more information for those who still think there’s something iffy about the new mRNA vaccine and the speed it’s been rolled out...
No, they’re worse, they’re malicious and ignorant, and self-centred. The only thing that’s important to them is themselves, the greater good does not concern them, they could bulk buy gravestones engraved ‘It’s all about ME’.
This is precisely what I would like to understand. Someone is doing what they think is the right thing, and is accused of being malicious and selfish as a result. Why is it so hard to quietly and politely disagree like people do over Brexit or politics?
Your continued support for that mindset makes you almost as bad, try as you might to deny it.
Support? Continued? Deny?
So can you provide a real example rather than internet whataboutery please
There’s not much point trying to get me to argue something I don’t believe in.
But I do know it isn’t black and white. The WHO thinks chicken pox vaccines are essential for children. The UK doesn’t.
So I can disagree, but I cannot dismiss.
The UKs position on the chicken pox vaccine is interesting - better for kids to get the disease rather than have unvaccinated adults get it later on when it's more serious.
So I've learnt something today, thank you.
This is precisely what I would like to understand. Someone is doing what they think is the right thing,
You're making a false equivalence. If you say "I believe in neo liberal trickle down economics" or "I believe Brexit will do x, y or z" I can certainly disagree with you but what you're saying isn't empirically provable as utter horseshit so a polite debate can be had.
There's no point even trying to debate with most Antivaxxers because it's always built on a rickety foundation of conspiracy upon conspiracy.
Very often I find it comes from a sad place of personal loss or confusion. Your kid is dead / sick / not meeting your expectations and it's a much nicer story to blame the Vaccines than just getting on with it.
So I can be empathetic with an individual Antivaxxer but as a thing it can go **** itself along with anyone promoting it.
