The ones I know are intelligent, educated, caring, gentle left-wingers.
I have a friend that for all intents is a rational human (hell, she's lectures at a Russel Group University) but is convinced that the moon landings were faked. I've given up trying to reason it out of her, as Kellyanne Conway put it she's got; "Alternative facts". Once some-one is convinced that (for whatever reason) their set of self-generated personal thruths overrule...well, everyone else's, then you're literally wasting your breath trying to convince them other-wise.
Someone who attributes their child’s autism or their own autoimmune disorder to vaccination two, five, ten years earlier is never going to view nine months’ safety data as equivalent, however many people were tested.
It might make no difference, but it is not the same.
Why would it, the time component has already been tested as the vaccine is not new, it is an existing medicine which has had a known portion modified. The Passat B7 didn’t start having huge failures caused by the parts changed from the B6, VW improved upon it. This is not something that has been thrown together - knowledgeable and experienced people have developed and refined what they have - it’s not mix some chemicals and hope for the best.
Kelvin,you've only been a member for a month longer than Theartist....,I think he knows how the discussions go on here.
You do have to realise that how we engage about issues such as “red bikes are faster” is different to life and death issues.
Thanks for that patronising little quip
The whole nature of this forum has morphed over the years into a group of mostly like minded people (and this isn't just about vaccinations) who shout down and insult people who don't adopt the hive mind way of thinking. To be honest, I have no idea where the people who populate this place hang out in real life.
I have a reasonably large social circle, spend a lot of time in the pub, work all over the country, with dozens of different and new people, visit and stay in many towns all over the country - where I'll make new friends. I see the odd example of people who get offended by everything that isn't morally perfect, don't really like the conservative party, think BLM and rioting to prove your point is a worthy movement, aren't too happy with Brexit et al, but those that adopt all of the above are few and far between.
However, I NEVER, EVER in my daily life, come across a group of people who get so het up about these issues, blame anyone that chooses a different view for ruining their lives, accuse people who don't want the vaccine as being complicit to murder, even evict people from house parties for voting tory. Yes, people will have differing views, but generally at most will discuss over a pint and let anyone who has an opposing view just get on with life. It's quite an angry little community here and I'm glad you've all found each other, you must all be fun at parties.
As for the vaccine. I may take it, I may not. I haven't decided yet and I'll be way down the queue anyway. I'm certainly no anti-vaxxer, I've had many, many vaccines in my life. I remain to be convinced that this vaccine actually does any good, or even how bad Covid actually is. But I'm just a dumb **** I guess
Kelvin,you’ve only been a member for a month longer than Theartist….,I think he knows how the discussions go on here.
And way before - that was the time of the great 'reset'
I Was just Singletrackrocks before (terrible name, I know, but we once used to discuss MTB'ing on here you know 😉 )
I did come on for a look inbetween eating, watching films, drinking, playing cards against humanity etc and noticed around midnight, there still wasn't one bit of happiness to be seen, hence my Happy New Year thread - that even ended up having a good dollop of misery injected into it
As for the vaccine. I may take it, I may not. I haven’t decided yet and I’ll be way down the queue anyway. I’m certainly no anti-vaxxer, I’ve had many, many vaccines in my life. I remain to be convinced that this vaccine actually does any good, or even how bad Covid actually is.
Okay I'll flip that round by changing one word:
As for the vaccine. I may take it, I may not. I haven’t decided yet and I’ll be way down the queue anyway. I’m certainly no anti-vaxxer, I’ve had many, many vaccines in my life. I remain to be convinced that this vaccine actually does any harm, or even how bad Covid actually is.
Can you give me a compelling reason why my version is less true than yours and if so why getting the vaccine would be in some way a bad choice?
On how bad Covid actually is, have you been living under a rock? Long Covid. Ring any bells?
Seeing as TheArtist is now kindly taking all the flak, I’ll just round off by responding to P7 and Kerley:
I’ve appealed to their sense of logic and proportion, with little success. They come armed with more facts/“facts” than I do. It’s exhausting.
Don’t be tempted to infer from this that such an approach is destined always to fail. Circumstances mean that I am not the person most likely to be listened to. Plus, I’m me: a week in and I’ve still failed even to convince the open-minded STW massive that I’m not a rabid antivaxxer myself.
I should add that their scepticism predates Wakefield and is more along the lines of the argument for eating organic food, i.e. natural is best.
I’ve appealed to their sense of logic and proportion, with little success.
Do you think that lack of success may be because their sense of logic and proportion are a little bit f'd up?
Not turning this into a religion thread but the premise is the same. You won't have a discussion with a religious person and walk away with them say "what was I thinking"
I’ll take that as a ‘no’ then? Would it help if played the role of another devil’s advocate? Not the cuddly lefty hesistant-lite antivaxxers that you are fixating on. No. The real hardcore crew. The ones in the title. The online conspiracists who are full on Trumpybrexit anti-‘globalist’ diehards who are convinced that your taking them to task on their claims means that you too are a commulist tool of the shadowy MicrosoftSorosLizardFeminazis?
The ones who are currently cheering that antivaxxer who just destroyed a batch of vaccines?
ie the ones in the thread title. How do you suppose you might find the skills to convince them?
I remain to be convinced that this vaccine actually does any good, or even how bad Covid actually is.
What evidence do you need?
I’ll take that as a ‘no’ then?
I’m not sure what the question was, but no I don’t think there’s much point doing a role play as you’re too much of a smart arse.
Which is not meant at all negatively: I generally like smart arses.
No sooner than I reply, you’ve edited it...
How do you suppose you might find the skills to convince them?
I think TiRed’s approach in the Covid thread is worth emulating.
No one else has the patience. Especially with the clear time wasters. TiRed deserves (another) medal.
PS What is a “commulist”? It doesn’t even come up as a bizarre sexual predilection in the urban dictionary.
Thanks for your question chrispo
I’ll answer, but would prefer to do one at a time, ie my last question to you wasn’t rhetorical btw 👍🏼
*edit. I see, I read back and you just insulted me instead. And then semi-withdrew it. What a game!
OK so why don’t you just adopt tired’s method, it may save you all the time? I don’t know probably 2% of what Tired knows about the subject so feel uncertain of my talents in that area.
A ‘commulist’ is a socialist communist. They two words are very often interchangeable and equivalent in the far right rhetoric/conspiracist’s lexicon. This far right conspiracist’s lexicon is also infected day to day folk who used like most to just think in terms of flavours of a social democracy/mixed economy and didn’t drive so hard on the ‘WHAT? You want to deny travel for Muslims/antivaxxers???? you’re a bunch of nazis/leftards/leftists/rightists!!!’ Kind of rhetoric.
I’ve still failed even to convince the open-minded STW massive that I’m not a rabid antivaxxer myself.
How many of this ‘massive’ addressed you as such? Count them? How many constitute a ‘massive’? I read your post/s explaining that you were ‘not an antivaxxer’ and I haven’t responded to you as such. But I did address your posts where I saw you as strawmanning, just as I called someone else on their stereotyping of working class white holidaymakers. I like to be even-handed 👍🏼
If you don’t like my humour then so be it, but trust me when I say you are having a good faith argument/debate with me. At least from my side. No BS. But I’m still not convinced there isn’t some trolling going on here.
(Sorry for the edit, am trying to cook a roast)
A commulist is a socialist communist. They two words are interchangeable and equivalent in the conspiracist’s lexicon.
Thank Christ, I thought it was just an annoying in-joke.
I read back and you just insulted me instead
Don’t go all faux thin-skinned on me. Absolutely not an insult. You’re too quick with the clever answers, in both senses, for it to be a useful exercise. It might be entertaining, admittedly, but I’m not at my sharpest at the moment.
OK so why don’t you just adopt tired’s method, it may save you all the time? I don’t know probably 2% of what Tired knows about the subject so feel uncertain of my talents in that area.
Ditto. But the patience and politeness we can all do if we try. It’s beyond frustrating at times but these are not people I can hate.
The whole nature of this forum has morphed over the years into a group of mostly like minded people (and this isn’t just about vaccinations) who shout down and insult people who don’t adopt the hive mind way of thinking. To be honest, I have no idea where the people who populate this place hang out in real life.
This. Absolutely.
It is almost a waste of time taking a part in many threads due the the dogmatic unacceptance of others points of view.
Quite ignorant really. Almost a fascist mindset.
or even how bad Covid actually is.
It's clearly been very serious indeed for a large number of people. It's hard to say how it would impact you. Maybe you should arrange to contract it then if the result is minor you perhaps have no need to consider vaccination. If it turns out to be more serious you may have no need of the vaccination.
The whole nature of this forum has morphed over the years into a group of mostly like minded people (and this isn’t just about vaccinations) who shout down and insult people who don’t adopt the hive mind way of thinking.
Whinges about how negative an online forum is, by going on to said forum and being negative.
Whatever else the STW ‘hive mind’ thinks, it’s a poor choice of phrase for covid discussions. ‘Hive mind’ is a wing used to denigrate people who stand by a commonly-held belief. In this case, the ‘hive mind’ says vaccines are going to be a massive help in this fight against this awful pandemic that is preventing all of us from doing what we want to do.
1) By using the term ‘hive mind’ you are implying that this is a simple-minded viewpoint but that is absolutely not the case here and it needs to be pointed out and corrected. ‘Vaccines offer a solution’ is the prevalent view held by most people capable of rational thought. The ‘hive mind’ would probably agree that the sky is blue, too.
2) Doing something for the benefit of the ‘hive’ is what bees are good at. There’s an obvious parallel with Covid and herd (hive?) immunity. If people were less self-obsessed they may understand that better.
It is almost a waste of time taking a part in many threads due the the dogmatic unacceptance of others points of view.
Quite ignorant really. Almost a fascist mindset.
But if most of us are in agreement, then what? Should some of us play devil's advocate simply to get a good discussion going?
But forget the dodgy analogies.
Because you tried and failed to drive a hole through it?
Someone who attributes their child’s autism or their own autoimmune disorder to vaccination...
... needs to educate themselves.
I’ve still failed even to convince the open-minded STW massive that I’m not a rabid antivaxxer myself.
Why do you suppose you feel you have to do that? I've felt no such compunction for me to need to do so. These things always follow a theme:
"I'm not a racist but..."
"I voted Remain but..."
"I've nothing against homosexuals but..."
I don't think anyone thinks you're a "rabid anti-vaxxer" but you are a little bit of an apologist for them aren't you.
You’re too quick with the clever answers, in both senses, for it to be a useful exercise.
Isn't that literally what you were just asking for in the CV thread?
Look. You're asking good questions. But you're also getting good answers and your response is always simply "but, but, but..." But nothing. There are people trying to educate you who know what they are talking about, if you're not prepared to listen to replies then you're just wasting their time.
The country nay the world would be a much better place if its populace got comfortable with the notion that it's OK for them to not know things.
The ones who are currently cheering that antivaxxer who just destroyed a batch of vaccines?
ie the ones in the thread title. How do you suppose you might find the skills to convince them?
Play them at their own game. I've had a limited degree of success by planting a seed that the belief that 'vaccines are bad' is from a Russian conspiracy to attempt to destabilise the West and weaken its population.
It is almost a waste of time taking a part in many threads due the the dogmatic unacceptance of others points of view.
Because the 'other points of view' are in this case wrong, and in the case of the covid deniers, anti-vaxxers, etc., dangerous. There's no refusal to allow another point of view, but there is a kind of obligation to point it out and try to change it.
It's not 'dogma' that makes me think a covid denier is wrong, it's overwhelming fact based evidence. If anything, persisting with the opposing position when it has been debated over and over is more dogmatic.
But I'll offer again, bring the counter and we'll listen. But be prepared to listen as well.
I’ve had a limited degree of success by planting a seed that the belief that ‘vaccines are bad’ is from a Russian conspiracy to attempt to destabilise the West and weaken its population.
Like all the best conspiracy theories there's an element of truth to that. Maybe too much.
Well, yes, there is a reason I said Russia rather than China. But I can't say too much more.
Look. You’re asking good questions. But you’re also getting good answers and your response is always simply “but, but, but…” But nothing. There are people trying to educate you who know what they are talking about, if you’re not prepared to listen to replies then you’re just wasting their time
True. But, but, but...
Not agreeing with people isn’t the same as not listening. Questioning what people are saying isn’t the same as not listening.
Nothing is black and white, there are always buts. Testing the hypothesis is what science is all about, no?
I haven’t been offered much in the way of scientific enlightenment on this thread anyway. All I’ve had really is opinions and grief, some of it doubtless brought on by me but also some of it because people simply haven’t listened to me.
If you’re not 100% with us, you’re against us. Or not listening. And we know best. So you must be a dumb ****.
Not everyone. But collectively that is the end-result.
All in all, it’s a really toxic environment and to be honest I’ve been trying to exit this thread for a few days but people keep then asking me direct questions or making direct attacks and I get sucked back in, like now.
And I know I’m opening myself up for a load more grief now, but it would be great if just one or two of you would for a moment consider that even someone who “doesn’t listen” to you or doesn’t unquestioningly agree with everything you say might still be worth listening to.
Well, actually, no. I am fairly certain that you would all do that in real life. What is it about this place?
It’s like dealing with anti-vaxxers...
You're really not worth listening to, sorry. There may be people who have questions about vaccines with something worthwhile to say, you're not one of them I'm afraid.
A commulist is a socialist communist. They two words are interchangeable and equivalent in the conspiracist’s lexicon.
Thank Christ, I thought it was just an annoying in-joke.
I was hoping he’d misheard the word years ago and honestly thought that’s how communist was spelled and pronounced.
What? You're claiming to have no knowledge so why would you disagree with the answers you have been given? Would you go into a lecture and start arguing because you don't understand the subject matter?
You’re really not worth listening to, sorry.
*Edit - I see you've edited to add more content....
And such is the self congratulatory and back slapping nature of this forum, that you can post a shitty retort like that and know it will go unchallenged because your mates will back you up.
It's why p7eaven thinks he's so hilarious.
It's not a very pleasant place at all. Why do you think all the women left?
Which I think brings me back round to my first contribution to this thread.
Well if you want to play the game and not the man fancy replying to my earlier post?
Well if you want to play the game and not the man fancy replying to my earlier post?
Oh, that. Yeah there's a difference - you don't find out the potential harmful effects of any new vaccine until years later.
And long covid? Yeah, a few people seem to have long term effects, maybe they have underlying health problems?
I know 6 people, myself included (who's got shit lungs from having pneumonia -twice), who have had it with no major problems 🤷
Oh, that. Yeah there’s a difference – you don’t find out the potential harmful effects of any new vaccine until years later.
And long covid? Yeah, a few people seem to have long term effects, maybe they have underlying health problems?
I know 6 people, myself included (who’s got shit lungs from having pneumonia -twice), who have had it with no major problems 🤷
But you do acknowledge there is a balance between risk and reward in taking the vaccine? Personally I know of 4 people having had it. 1 no symptoms, 1 minor, 1 with 6 months of poor health and one seriously ill. But the many thousands of deaths do point me heavily towards vaccination, as it seems certain that the more people who are vaccinated, the quicker we can get back to normal.
And long covid? Yeah, a few people seem to have long term effects, maybe they have underlying health problems?
I’ve had it. No pre existing health problems and I was actually pretty fit. Caught Covid in April and haven’t been right since. Still get breathless and a tight chest every now and then and my mental health has suffered hugely.
Used to be able to cycle from my door, around an extended loop of Macc forest and back home in roughly an hour. Tried it twice in August and it took me an hour and a half both times just to get to the old cabin at the top of the first section. I’m an old fashioned ‘men don’t cry’ idiot and I sat down and wept in frustration the second time before heading home to bed as I was so tired.
Sold my bike after that, bought a gravel bike for riding around the local canal network. Only ridden it three times as I simply have little energy and sleep a lot when not at work. Sorry to derail, but Covid is a ****ing **** of an illness and I wouldn’t wish some of these after effects on anyone. I feel ancient and knackered at 43.
But you do acknowledge there is a balance between risk and reward in taking the vaccine? Personally I know of 4 people having had it. 1 no symptoms, 1 minor, 1 with 6 months of poor health and one seriously ill. But the many thousands of deaths do point me heavily towards vaccination, as it seems certain that the more people who are vaccinated, the quicker we can get back to normal.
Oh, most definitely. I have absolutely no issue with a vaccination programme. I'm just very much of the mindset that it should be personal choice
I’ve had it. No pre existing health problems and I was actually pretty fit. Caught Covid in April and haven’t been right since. Still get breathless and a tight chest every now and then and my mental health has suffered hugely.
Used to be able to cycle from my door, around an extended loop of Macc forest and back home in roughly an hour. Tried it twice in August and it took me an hour and a half both times just to get to the old cabin at the top of the first section. I’m an old fashioned ‘men don’t cry’ idiot and I sat down and wept in frustration the second time before heading home to bed as I was so tired.
Sold my bike after that, bought a gravel bike for riding around the local canal network. Only ridden it three times as I simply have little energy and sleep a lot when not at work. Sorry to derail, but Covid is a * * of an illness and I wouldn’t wish some of these after effects on anyone. I feel ancient and knackered at 43.
I'm very sorry that you've had the shit side of Covid, it must be awful. Hopefully you'll make a full recovery soon.
I wouldn't wish any illness on anybody. Covid is certainly a strange one with how it affects some and not others
Personal choice is fine when everyone (especially those who could get hit the worst) can have a vaccine.
The trouble is a fair number cannot so they are relying on the general population to protect them too.
In an ideal would everyone had a vaccine that wants it which prevents them getting any illness from covid.
at that point the 40% out whatever who don't want it are on their own to deal with whatever consequences there are.
Sadly we don't live in that world so there will be a residual risk to people meaning they either have to stay isolated or take a dangerous risk
Well, actually, no. I am fairly certain that you would all do that in real life. What is it about this place?
I wouldn't let it bother you, this is a very good rule in life.
I would just say that you can never, ever, know another person or their life or circumstances, and should never rush to judge them.
Which sounds a bit Christian, which I’m not, but there we go.
It is a bit Christian but as Christianity underpins arguably pretty much all of Western thought it is hardly a surprise that non-believers share it.
MacCruiskeen's post was very good though - one of the best I've seen on here in a long time.
It’s not a very pleasant place at all.
Bye then.
The guy was just trolling and every response would be met with 5 more daft questions that he already knew the answers to - what's the point?
My missus probably won't be able to take the vaccine for medical reasons despite being in the highest risk category so we are reliant on a good uptake amongst other people to get back to anything like a normal life - so forgive me if I have little time for people who don't want to take it because they just don't really fancy it.
Oh, that. Yeah there’s a difference – you don’t find out the potential harmful effects of any new vaccine until years later.
Yes, except that statement is not true.
I mean it’s plausible that there may be hitherto unrecognised adverse effects of any medication on a longer timeframe than it can be studied for. But the history of drug trials and vaccinations in particular doesn’t support that at all. A handful of people get acute allergic reactions, skin redness etc. Then there’s the weird neurological reactions that are reported (very rarely) like Guillain-Barré, Bell’s palsy or transverse myelitis, which occur over a few weeks and months. There is no evidence for longer term adverse events in vaccines we have been using for years.
Of course, the covid vaccine could be different to all the others that went before it, but there’s nothing in its biology to suggest that’s likely. So you have to weigh all up the documented adverse events plus this small hypothetical risk vs the very real and significant risk of illness / death from covid. At this stage in the pandemic where we have run out of ITU beds in some regions, it’s what you might call a no-brainer.
I can tell that you are doing some sort of rational balancing in your head. But you are IMO putting too much weight on potential vaccine risks and clearly not enough on the very real risks of covid.
The Mrna vaccines are similar – the current Pfizer/Moderna vaccines are the product of work dating from many years before Covid was a twinkle in the saliva of a friendly bat.
Thanks, all of that info, and multiple links to articles about it, not the Daily Mail, I posted up pages back. Nobody seems to have bothered reading it, it seems.
I’ve had enough, chrispo and his circular arguments remind me far to much of someone else on here for me to waste my time for no reason.
I’m near the bottom of a glass of 12yo Highland Park, I’m going to pour another, stick my headphones on and listen to something out of the 80-odd albums I’ve downloaded recently; I think it’ll be a much more rewarding experience. Good luck arguing with Chrispo, if someone can locate the bridge he lives under, maybe we can dam the river and flush him out. ‘Night all.
Oh, most definitely. I have absolutely no issue with a vaccination programme. I’m just very much of the mindset that it should be personal choice
I think it will be personal choice. My hope is that enough people will take it to make it highly successful - which I think is why people are so vehemently opposed to anti-vaxxers spreading disinformation. My ex wife is against any vaccinations and refuses to let my daughter have hers. Drives me nuts - I daren't tell my mum as she was a nurse in the 70's and FULLY understands through first hand experience why MMR is so important. I'll be pointing out to my ex that her refusal to be vaccinated against Covid means she'll not be welcome around grandparents for a considerable time.
