In the context you quoted me, nickc calling people dumb ****
Why? Do you have evidence that he's incorrect? I'm sure we'd all love to hear it.
It's natural to be sceptical. Hell, it's good to be sceptical and I wish more people were. But when someone is still standing there as a lone wolf screaming "yes but..." in the face of two hundred years of solid evidence then is it not time for us in turn to start being sceptical about their critical thinking capabilities?
No, it’s like arguing that someone who made green paint for the first time a year ago doesn’t know for certain it’ll stick to my house for ten years just because their blue paint does.
And putting the horse back in front of the cart:
Do you have any (credible) reason to suspect that a new shade of gloss produced by a long-established paint manufacturer is suddenly going to fall off your woodwork? Because if you don't then you're literally making shit up to argue about.
So I don’t think this is a good approach to convincing the sceptics. Trust me: I am very much on the front line.
Trust me: I am very much on the front line.
Not as much as I am...
But what I was actually arguing was that if you’ve been making blue paint for ten years and green paint for one year, you shouldn’t claim that you have exactly the same level of experience of both paints. You don’t, and people might not trust you on other things either if you do.
And it is a fact, however much you try to deny it. It was first administered to a human this year, not ten years ago.
Yet, for example, your R&D team was 2 fairly average people when developing blue paint, because it was a limited market. The entire world suddenly goes nuts for green paint. So you have limitless funding and an R&D team the size of a small country, filled with all of the world's best paint designers. Green paint will be the bomb. And that is a fact.
Hope so👍
I know all the evidence says your green paint will stick for ten years but I don't believe you, someone on the far reaches of the internet said that you made your data up, and no amount of you showing me your data will convince me otherwise because it's all part of a conspiracy and you will deny it because you're in on it.
And once, a long time ago, someone was poisoned by a different type of paint totally unrelated to this type of paint, so that proves it.
..... and so it goes......
nickc calling people dumb ****
I'll say it on this page too if you want. Anti-vaxxers are stupider than mud. And the people that enable them are worse. Like I said, you're either willingly complicit in the death of other people, or you're too stupid to realise you're complicit in the death of other people, if you're an anti vaxxer, those are your choices. I'm willing to bet money if you showed an anti-vaxxer a smallpox victim* they'd be first in line with their sleeve rolled up...
*oh no wait, you can't show anyone a smallpox victim can you, I wonder why that is..?
I'll take it that's a 'no' then.
This is brexit all over again. In the red (green?) corner we have a global set of leading experts in their respective fields backed up with the very best of support, and in the blue corner we have Geoff from Barry Island who read on the Internet somewhere that vaccines contain mercury. Whilst Geoff is entitled to his opinion, these two corners are not equivalent.
If you believe that Geoff's 'opinion' is as valid as the green corner and don't see why this is problematic then, well, that's problematic.
If you believe that Geoff's 'opinion' is as valid as the green corner and don't see why this is problematic IN THE MIDDLE OF A GODS DAMNED GLOBAL PANDEMIC then, well. What Nick said, I've got nothing else.
smallpox
Did you know that the word ‘vaccination’ derived from the Latin word for ‘cow’, when cowpox material was used to inoculate against smallpox?
And the antivaxxers commonly and increasingly use the word ‘sheep’ to describe others (ie anyone who doesn’t follow their herd)
Which puts me in mind of another word root:
Irony (from Ancient Greek εἰρωνεία eirōneía 'dissimulation, feigned ignorance'
Did you know that the word ‘vaccination’ derived from the Latin word for ‘cow’
I did not but that makes sense. "Vache" is French for cow also, as any Monty Python fan will tell you.
But what I was actually arguing was that if you’ve been making blue paint for ten years and green paint for one year, you shouldn’t claim that you have exactly the same level of experience of both paints. You don’t, and people might not trust you on other things either if you do.
Hands down the dumbest thing I’ve read in quite some time. Good effort.
Anti-vaxxers are stupider than mud. And the people that enable them are worse. Like I said, you’re either willingly complicit in the death of other people, or you’re too stupid to realise you’re complicit in the death of other people, if you’re an anti vaxxer, those are your choices. I’m willing to bet money if you showed an anti-vaxxer a smallpox victim* they’d be first in line with their sleeve rolled up…
*oh no wait, you can’t show anyone a smallpox victim can you, I wonder why that is..?
I concur.
I think you'll find he's trolled and gone...
For anyone interested here’s info of a study into people’s receptivity of Covid-19 misinformation
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.10.22.20217513v1
Exposed to selected falsehoods and the number fell by 6.4 per cent to well below the 55 per cent threshold that scientists believe is necessary to create herd immunity.
https://www.ft.com/content/f84746af-9a7f-4cc8-a3b5-434d4c08556e
If any of the above is aimed at me, I'm having an enjoyable NYE with my family, eating curry, drinking and watching films. Just a quick check in to see how much frothing is going on.
Catch you all tomorrow. Happy new year 😂
‘dissimulation, feigned ignorance’
I think that one deserved a round of applause.
👏🏼
I recently lost an incredibly kind caring friend [and more importantly my cleaner] who'd been infected with QAnon via Youbend. Didn't help when I enquired very loudly across the street in a Father Ted fashion as to whether she was now a fascist.
If any of the above is aimed at me, I’m having an enjoyable NYE with my family, eating curry, drinking and watching films. Just a quick check in to see how much frothing is going on.
How modest of you....
Vehemently and contentiously disagreeing and then running away when challenged.
AKA, "trolling."
I'm making soup.
But what I was actually arguing was that if you’ve been making blue paint for ten years and green paint for one year, you shouldn’t claim that you have exactly the same level of experience of both paints. You don’t, and people might not trust you on other things either if you do.
Hands down the dumbest thing I’ve read in quite some time. Good effort.
Is this not an incredibly simple way of explaining why the vacine is good?
You spend all that time developing a blue paint that is thin enough for good coverage but thick enough to stick, dries with a non porus outer to prevent staining is hard enough to not be easily damaged yet felxible enough not to crack etc... When you make the green version you just need to ensure your green dye does not interfere with these properties - you dont start from the begining. The paint might even get improved in the process.
So the new Covid 19 vacine is a vaccine from a previous Corona virus which is lets say 'blue' tweeked to protect against Covid 19 which is 'green'. The vaccine might even get improved in the process.
full discloure - I am not a virus scientist and I am aware that the qoute was trying to say the opposite.
^^
I am aware that the qoute was trying to say the opposite.
You have however nailed precisely (and explained better than I did) what I was trying to say when I invoked Dulux's Law in the first place.
A key point here is that the full name for this virus is 'severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2,' or SARS-CoV-2 for short. Look at that number right at the end there. Anyone any ideas what it might signify? Bueller?
I’ll say it on this page too if you want. Anti-vaxxers are stupider than mud. And the people that enable them are worse. Like I said, you’re either willingly complicit in the death of other people, or you’re too stupid to realise you’re complicit in the death of other people, if you’re an anti vaxxer, those are your choices. I’m willing to bet money if you showed an anti-vaxxer a smallpox victim* they’d be first in line with their sleeve rolled up…
*oh no wait, you can’t show anyone a smallpox victim can you, I wonder why that is..?
Well said
Another thing that tends to be overlooked, and apologies if this has already been mentioned, is the sheer number of volunteers for these trials.
If "The number of subjects [in Phase iii trials] usually ranges from several hundred to about 3,000 people" *, then a trial involving over 40,000 volunteers ultimately equates to some 13+ years of data, does it not? Is that a reasonable equivalence?
But I never said the paint wouldn’t work...
But forget the dodgy analogies. Someone who attributes their child’s autism or their own autoimmune disorder to vaccination two, five, ten years earlier is never going to view nine months’ safety data as equivalent, however many people were tested.
It might make no difference, but it is not the same.
Someone who attributes their child’s autism or their own autoimmune disorder to vaccination two, five, ten years earlier is never going to view nine months’ safety data as equivalent, however many people were tested.
And what safety data does the vaccine that 'caused' their autoimmune disorder have and what evidence do they have that it actually caused their disorder other than just guessing it did?
And what is the option here, to live with Covid for 10 years until we get the 10 years of safety data. Do you they really think that is a viable option knowing the impact of doing that?
As long as everyone who wants the vaccine gets it and is protected I don't really care about those that don't but I would still rather not see them catch covid and potentially have long term effects from it or even die from it because I don't want that for anyone even if it is mostly their own fault.
I'd like like to acknowledge chrispo's victory in the annual "Trolling knob of the year" competition, great work, it's been settled on the first day.
rather not see them catch covid and potentially have long term effects from it or even die from it because I don’t want that for anyone
Neither do I. That’s why I’m here. And why I think it better to reason with them, and level with them, rather than just shutting them down with “science” or “idiot”, however daft we consider their position.
And why I think it better to reason with them, and level with them, rather than just shutting them down
Great, what have you tried so far to reason with them and how is it going? What % would you estimate have changed their mind because of your reasoning?
Someone who attributes their child’s autism or their own autoimmune disorder to vaccination two, five, ten years earlier is never going to view nine months’ safety data as equivalent, however many people were tested.
That's because they're as dumb as ****...we've covered this. As Swift said (also 18thC, interestingly the same century that vaccines were developed) said: "You cannot reason out of people what wasn't put there by reason in the first place..."
I don’t think anti-vaxxers are stupid people. Some are, perhaps. They’ve been mislead by malicious interests and a stream of nonsense in our media over the last decade that seems to validate every arsehole’s opinion.
See the BBC employing Farage in political debates ‘for balance’, or talking about what Kevin from Solihull said about a news item on Twitter.
There’s also an issue about feeling undervalued by society, where joining a clan that talks in pseudoscience, pats you on the back for joining and makes you feel superior is quite attractive. Your job is to spread the word of [s]Jehovah[/s] the gospel of anti-vax.
Anyway, whatever the cause of this bullshit, we’re never going to win back these people by snobbishly calling them stupid. I don’t pretend to have an answer, but it’s not calling individuals stupid. I’d guess you have to somehow let them discover for themselves that their viewpoint is wrong.
we’re never going to win back these people by snobbishly calling them stupid
Anyone who rejects empiricism (also, like Swift and vaccines and it's opposing philosophy rationalism; developed in the 18thC, it's almost like something important happened) doesn't get to be on the debate team. I don't care if they think I'm being mean by calling them stupid, as that's what they are.
Anyway, whatever the cause of this bullshit, we’re never going to win back these people by snobbishly calling them stupid. I don’t pretend to have an answer, but it’s not calling individuals stupid.
Very much this. No idea what the solution us. I don't agree with Chrispo, though I'm not convinced he's deliberately trolling from a comment elsewhere about him elsewhere, but the knee jerk "they are all stupid" reaction is so unhelpful. It doesn't show you are right, it shows you are incapable of interacting at their level.
We called a lot of Brexit voters stupid ahead of the referendum, but they ****ed us over in revenge. We can't afford to make the same mistake with vaccination.
I’d guess you have to somehow let them discover for themselves that their viewpoint is wrong.
They don't care about being wrong, for them it's more rewarding to believe in conspiracies etc so they do.
The world has become very complex and confusing and people seek simple answers to difficult questions. I don't think there really is any solution to it.
it shows you are incapable of interacting at their level.
They don't have a "level". They have a set of internal beliefs that aren't tethered to any sort of reality. Good luck shoehorning any sort of rational thought in there, there's often barely the space.
I don’t care if they think I’m being mean by calling them stupid, as that’s what they are.
Ok, but what if that approach meant alienating these people further, reducing vaccine uptake and herd immunity levels with the result that the pandemic continues indefinitely?
You might be ‘right’ but that’s of little comfort in that scenario.
They have a set of internal beliefs that aren’t tethered to any sort of reality. Good luck shoehorning any sort of rational thought in there,
Yes, very much like a religion. Can you get 'stupid' religious people to change their minds?
Basically conspiracy theories are bought into by mentally frail people who through fear can't accept the randomness of life, in the fashion of "God Botherers". The Anti vax movement is infested with such people.
We called a lot of Brexit voters stupid ahead of the referendum, but they **** us over in revenge. We can’t afford to make the same mistake with vaccination.
Doesn’t self-blame get tiresome? Notice how it’s always your job to correct the lies and conspiracies that people happily believe?
I don’t interact on Facebook except for buying the odd gubbins from market.
I don’t interact with the antivaxx ‘movement’ or with their acolytes.
I don’t blame myself for Brexit or for Antivaxxers.
I don’t think that they are *all* stupid, I think they are mostly uneducated, bored, rebellious, ‘special’, and possibly spoiled with the luxury of a lot of time on their hands in a country whose social compact that they take for granted. Easily manipulated.
it shows you are incapable of interacting at their level.
Yep. I couldn’t keep up with it, admittedly. I barely have the energy (or time) to joke around with strawmanning trolls, letalone committed conspiracists. I have a long-lost relative who I recently caught up with after decades. We went for a MTB ride and ‘caught up’. We were later looking out over the sea and he was talking about the wind turbines and how they ‘look like they dip below the horizon but do they’. He said a few more things and I suspect he is a flat-earther (although he prefers not to be called that, he likes to say ‘I’m not saying it’s flat, I’m saying ‘how do we know it’s not?’) and then he gave me that conspiratorial gaze. At which point I’m immediately at a loss because I don’t wish to insult him. But he must’ve caught a flicker of a wry smile in me, or more likely because I responded with ‘but...’ because I felt him instantly disengage. I had the distinct feeling that I’d already been marked as ‘one of the sheep’. I’ll wager he’s not so coy online but outside of STW I rarely if ever interact online in any capacity.
I tried last year (more as an experiment) by challenging a few of these many social media/new media (mostly right wing populist) conspiracies in the youtube comments, but my replies (no matter how polite) more often than not get summarily deleted. It seems as if the channel host doesn’t appreciate evidence which conflicts with their grift/their user-base. Most of the comments are from trolls anyway. And I can see what glee that type get from all of this, even on this thread.
Back to my relative - I had it confirmed last night that he is saying the Covid vaccine most likely has some kind of microchip in it. I wouldn’t wish to offend him but he doesn’t contact me anymore anyhow. I’m one of the ‘lost’.
“Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it, so that when men come to be undeceived, it is too late; the jest is over, and the tale hath had its effect: like a man, who hath thought of a good repartee when the discourse is changed, or the company parted; or like a physician, who hath found out an infallible medicine, after the patient is dead.
Jonathan Swift”
@chrispo, and back to the antivaxx movement -
I agree we shouldn’t be rude to people (at least to those who are arguing in good faith) But when their entire argument is composed of malignant lies and questing, self-generating, self-absorbed swill, the sharp end of it is them accusing you of being a stupid dummy-dumb-dumb sheep in the thrall of your globalist overlords...
...then what is your method for de-Trumping a Brexiting Antivaxxer? (Trust me, 90% of the time they are all three.
Reach them on their level? Use counter-propaganda, populism, hatred of ‘the other’, Nationalistic fervour? ‘I’m alright Jack’?
How do YOU interact ‘at their level’. And how much time have you got....? And have you even a small idea of how many motivated trolls (and troll farms) are knowingly disseminating confusion and misinformation, trying to ‘break stuff’ by leading the gullible down online rabbit-holes?
Self-flagellation/self-blame for all of their behaviours is just more grist for those players.
I don’t interact with the antivaxx ‘movement’ or with their acolytes.
Given that their crime is failing in their duty to the community, do we not all have a duty to the community to try and win them round?
…then what is your method for de-Trumping a Brexiting Antivaxxer? (Trust me, 90% of the time they are all three.
Not in my experience, quite the opposite. The ones I know are intelligent, educated, caring, gentle left-wingers.
how much time have you got….?
As much as it takes.
Not in my experience, quite the opposite. The ones I know are intelligent, educated, caring, gentle left-wingers.
I think I can see the disconnect. The thread is about arguing with antivaxxer movement on social media.
So to indulge you, let me play your favourite ‘devil’s advocate’ position and you can maybe show me the proper way to discharge one’s gentle civic duty to reason me out of that place I din’t reason myself into.
I’ll be that gentle relative.
Go:
What you don’t know, chrispo, no matter how much we think that we know, is the ACTUAL reason behind this so-called vaccine. Huh?
You know,chrispo's prose style seems awfully familiar,and when you click on his id,it shows one of the christmas pages,with no info about him.When was THM last seen here ?
Given that their crime is failing in their duty to the community, do we not all have a duty to the community to try and win them round?
Again, so what have you done so far and how successful have you been?
Vehemently and contentiously disagreeing and then running away when challenged.
AKA, “trolling.”
I’m making soup.
Err, no it was NYE and I was having a pleasant evening with my family as I said, rather than getting involved with all the bitterness on here
I don’t think anti-vaxxers are stupid people. Some are, perhaps. They’ve been mislead by malicious interests and a stream of nonsense in our media over the last decade that seems to validate every arsehole’s opinion.
See the BBC employing Farage in political debates ‘for balance’, or talking about what Kevin from Solihull said about a news item on Twitter.
There’s also an issue about feeling undervalued by society, where joining a clan that talks in pseudoscience, pats you on the back for joining and makes you feel superior is quite attractive. Your job is to spread the word of Jehovah the gospel of anti-vax.
This is one of the most sensible things I’ve read over the last few pages. Things are getting rather nasty overall which is sad to see. Weak minded, lonely or gullible aren’t the same as being ****ing stupid and taking that stance will not get you anywhere. The tone of this thread is very similar to some of the religious ones. The only difference being they get shutdown before they get this far. Anti-vax, flat earth etc all pretty much work in the same way as cults. I feel sorry for these people more than anything else. There is something fundamentally broken in them and I wish I knew how to fix it. Sadly I don’t, but calling them idiots on a bike forum is akin to yelling at a brick. It’s of no use to anybody.
I was having a pleasant evening with my family as I said
Apart from taking the time to come on here and goad people about "frothing", without making any actual point or contributing positively in any way you mean?
You do have to realise that how we engage about issues such as "red bikes are faster" is different to life and death issues.
