If Hamas are a democratically elected government as several posters have said on here, why does their political leader live in exile whilst the unelected military leaders of Hamas control Gaza?
Perhaps a different perspective.
Just imagine if the Germans had succeeded in landing in Southern England in WW2, and then managed to hold most of the southern counties. Their claim being that it was Saxon country anyway.
Now, let's imagine attempts by British "terrorists" in the rest of the country to reclaim this land and push the Germans into the sea.
Would we be justified in doing this or not?
If Hamas are a democratically elected government as several posters have said on here, why does their political leader live in exile whilst the unelected military leaders of Hamas control Gaza?
.
Because Israel assassinates Palestinian politicians.
If I launch rockets from my flat onto your neighbourhood, will you tolerate it? Will you be talking about rights of minority? Or will you bomb the hell out of me with the biggest bomb/rocket you have?
If my memory serves me correctly, the Jews lived there some 2000+ years ago, something I read in the Bible. Palestinians lived there too, but saying that Jerusalem is a holy Islamic-only place so the Jews need to be killed is a bit rich. And that's what Hamas seems to be saying. Why rich? Has anybody bothered to check the origins of Islam as a religion?
[i][u]
Muhammad (c. 570 ñ June 8, 632) was an Arab religious, political, and military leader who founded the religion of Islam [/u]as a historical phenomenon. Muslims view him not as the creator of a new religion, but as the restorer of the original, uncorrupted monotheistic faith of Adam, Abraham and others. In Muslim tradition, Muhammad is viewed as the last and the greatest in a series of prophets ó as the man closest to perfection, the possessor of all virtues.[35] For the last 23 years of his life, beginning at age 40, Muhammad reported receiving revelations from God. The content of these revelations, known as the Qur'an, was memorized and recorded by his companions.[36][/i]
So maybe, instead of bombing Israel, who won't give in ever, Hamas should re-read Qur'an and go back to peaceful co-existance, like they did it when Jerusalem collapsed undertheir siege.
I don't condone anybody there, but given Israel have nukes I'd think at least twice before attacking them.
"[i]Because Israel assassinates Palestinian politicians.[/i]"
ernie_lynch, you were doing well until you gave that answer!
Unlike (it would appear) you, I have no allegiances and no real understanding of the situation (although I have travelled and lived in the Middle East) but Israel have their agenda, Iran has its agenda, the USA has its agenda, the UK has its agenda, Russia has its agenda and there are deep-seated business and poltical agendas behind all parties and we only get to see and hear what those with their own agendas want us to see and hear. We can form our own opinions based only on what we choose to see and hear.
Hairychested, not all Palestinians are Muslims. Many are in fact Christians, although the overwhelming majority have now been ethnically cleansed by Israel from Palestine.
And of course not forgetting, many Jews have a right to call themselves Palestinian.
This right does not however, extend to Ashkenazim Jews such as Lady Shirley Porter. Lady Shirley Porter who is probably the most corrupt British politician of modern times and yet, one of Israel's most respected citizens, has no right to Palestinian land.
Isreals response is disproportionate and there unwillingness to or tardy response in letting the injured leave to go to hospitals in neighbouring countries is unexceptable.
All countries should lobby the States to be more heavy handed as they are the only country that Israel listens to and gives two sh*ts about.
psling, are you actually challenging the statement that Israel assassinates Palestinian politicians ? ! ! !
And yes, you are completely right - I give unequivocal support to the Palestinian people. In the same way which I gave unequivocal support to non-whites in their struggle against Apartheid. Or Jews against attacks by neo-Nazis.
I don't sit on the fence in face of injustices claiming that there are "two sides to every coin".
Isreals response is disproportionate
No it's not. The Palestinians have used the means they have available to murder as many Israelies as possible. The Israelies have responded in the same fashion.
If you smacked a big lad would you go running to mummy because he smacks back harder than you?
I wouldn't trust ANYONE who supports either side in the Israeli / Palestinian clusterf*ck.
i'm sure if isreal didn't recieve 8billion us dollars per year, only to be spent on "defence" the situation would be rather different.
the "problem" between the jews and muslims did not exsist before 1948. up untill then anti-semitism was a christrian/western idealology.
besides. religion is bullcrap.
read a book once about three bears and a little girl who ate all their porridge. must be true, it was in a book afterall....
[i]If you smacked a big lad would you go running to mummy because he smacks back harder than you?[/i]
If a big lad came into my house and sat in my armchair and watched my TV, and I tried to push him out, I'd be slightly aggrieved if he got his whole gang from across the Atlantic to come and help him kick the crap out of me.
Guys lets all calm down. Arguing here won't solve anything. What we should be doing is putting our collective faith in our Middle-East "Peace" Envoy, whom I notice has been rarely off the TV condemning the attocities and pledging to meet all sides and mediate a peaceful solution. If we can just wait until he's finished his latest lecture tour / business meeting I'm sure that all will be well by Tuesday.
"If you smacked a big lad would you go running to mummy because he smacks back harder than you?"
How about if you were just near the original offender* and the big lad cordoned off the area and proceeded to retaliated by lashing out again and again at anyone in the general area, while not allowing anyone to leave? That's stretching the analogy a bit but it's better than yours.
*not that that's necessarily the Palestinians.
Coyote, it's not just his engagements which [url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2008/oct/29/speeches-tony-blair ]the world's highest paid public speaker[/url] has to consider, it's also the security implications.
As was reported in the Telegraph the other day, [url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/4028387/Tony-Blair-to-visit-Middle-East-in-attempt-to-broker-peace.html ]"he has not made a trip into Gaza and postponing a visit to see a new sewage treatment works in northern Gaza last July for security reasons"[/url]
Launching a war from thousands of miles away is one thing, but being stuck in the middle of one is something completely different.
[i]What we should be doing is putting our collective faith in our Middle-East "Peace" Envoy[/i]
Now I [b]really[/b] feel depressed.
So a peace envoy who can't go into areas of conflict for "security reasons" is a bit of a waste of time then.
Good point. What has that smug **** actually done as "Peace" envoy? Well, apart from starting an ickle war or two.....
[i]So a peace envoy who can't go into areas of conflict for "security reasons" is a bit of a waste of time then[/i]
Blair is a waste of time (and space) under [u]any[/u] circumstances.
"[i]psling, are you actually challenging the statement that Israel assassinates Palestinian politicians ? ! ! ![/i]"
No, but in this particular instance I don't believe he is in exile because of fear of assasination by Israel (which I am sure you are probably aware of). I was merely suggesting that you were being a bit disingenuous with your answer ;~)
I do respect your views on the subject though, you appear to be well informed and I would not begrudge anyone having a strong viewpoint (either way). The saddest thing is that the Palestinians and the Israelis cannot put down their weapons and resolve their differing viewpoints.
Some of the most acrimonious court cases in this country are boundary disputes so how on earth 'ownership' of land which both parties claim to be theirs in the strong belief that they are right can be resolved at the level of the Palestine / Israel dispute I just don't know. Despite various treaties in recent history, who can honestly say whose claim is right; the only way forward is for both parties to agree a new treaty and abide by it. This hasn't happened yet so don't hold your breath...
Whose land is it? Not who is the oppressed and who is the oppresser but whose land is it really?
i'm rooting for the Hittites, they were there first.
psling - Whose land is it? Not who is the oppressed and who is the oppresser but whose land is it really?
er, I think that's actually easy to prove. Just get a 20th century atlas published before the Palestinians made (or had made for them) the mistake of allowing unrestricted immigration.
According to some on this thread I would be a "foreign zionist" invading Palestine. From my point of view I came from Britain to live in a sovereign state with a right to decide who is allowed to immigrate. As an Israeli I can say that according to my knowlege of other Israelis, the answer is no, the Israelis are not the new Nazis. I find that Israelis are no better or worse than any other collection of human beings. I count amongst my friends both Christian & Moslem Arabs, who are also no better or worse than anybody else.
Regarding the current war taking place in Gaza;
Israel ceased to occupy the Gaza strip, pulling out all armed forces and settlers.
Hamas won democratic elections in Gaza, possibly due to widespraed corruption in the Fatah party leadership.
Hamas has since destroyed Fatah in Gaza by killing, expelling, and generally harrassing its supporters, meaning that it can no longer be considered a democratically elected government.
For a sustained period Hamas has conducted and sanctioned random rocket attacks against the south of Israel, sometimes resulting in the death and injury of Jewish & Arab Israelis, and making normal life impossible.
Israel's response to such attacks is to close border crossings.
Hamas complains about such sanctions whilst continuing to launch rockets and mortars against civilians.
The period leading up to the ceasefire over the summer was particularly unbearable with 80 or more rockets and mortars being launched each day.
Hamas has used the months of the cease-fire to develop it's weaponry, choosing not to renew the cease-fire.
Israel has launched a war on Hamas, as it seems nothing else will stop the attacks. Israel has so far avoided this in the knowlege that any such action will inevitably result in the death and suffering of large numbers of innocent Palestinians, with all of the negative human and political effects associated.
Hamas could have chosen not to attack civilians, and to try to improve the lot of the population for which they are responsible, they chose to conduct a fanatical policy with total disregard for the welfare of their people.
Israel is entitled to defend itself against the illegal aggression of Hamas, they are not interested in negotiation or peace, meaning that deadly force is necessary in the attempt to stop them.
I can't help thinking that the Palestinians would have had their state a long time ago if they had only chosen peaceful protest as a means of acheiving their legitimate aims.
Wharg Rider
Having started this thread and coming from a land of religous in-fighting as usual there's faults on both sides. The 'trap' that Israel has fallen into is responding with considerably more force than Hamas is using which equals a huge worldwide media own goal. Sure defend yourselfs but the issue I saw many times at home was self defence dispraportionate to the actions of a few hardened terrorists is always counter productive.
What's the answer? The answer is the difficult path of turning the other cheek and constant pressure on Hamas and Fatah through the UN. As with my country if peaceful means had been used I am convinced we would have been united long ago rather than leaving it to the men of violence. However shooting the shit out of any population creates martyrs, and destroys any political middle ground leaving any democratic (or pseudo democratic) process open to extremists.
There are good people on every side, your right. But this will marginalise any good.
If Israel was to fully fund and create wealth in Gaza the poverty we witness in the west would disappear along with the terrorism poverty spawns - FACT.
The 'trap' that Israel has fallen into is responding with considerably more force than Hamas is using which equals a huge worldwide media own goal.
It's not a popularity contest. Why would they give a monkeys?
Nuke the lot of them.
Israel has so far avoided this in the knowlege that any such action will inevitably result in the death and suffering of large numbers of innocent Palestinians, with all of the negative human and political effects associated.
No. Israel has simply spent the last two years preparing for this. Never again did it want to experience the humiliation which received when it attacked Lebanon in 2006.
Israel always likes to maximise the amount of people it kills during it's military actions.
The UN estimates that Israel dropped 4 million anti-personnel cluster bombs onto south Lebanon in the last three days of its 2006 July war, [u]after[/u] a ceasefire had already been agreed.
[url] http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7937 [/url]
have israel still not admitted to having nukes? doesnt that make them a rogue nuclear state?
how the devil do they get away with so much?
Israel always likes to maximise the amount of people it kills in it's military actions.
If I was organising a military action I'd do that too. It's kind of the point.
Some of the most acrimonious court cases in this country are boundary disputes
Really ? Boundary disputes which are several thousand years old ? Going back before the reign of Boadicea ?
.
Gosh, yes, they must be very complicated to resolve 😯
Hamas has since destroyed Fatah in Gaza by killing, expelling, and generally harrassing its supporters, meaning that it can no longer be considered a democratically elected government.
Hamas and Fatah militants have long been at each other's throats, in the struggle for power. The elections in Palestine were considered, by neutral observers, to be fair and just. Whilst the actions of certain members/groups within Hamas are deplorable, they are as 'democratic' as the Israeli government. Personally, I don't believe that Hamas are the party to lead Palestine towards peace, but then, I have no say, as I am not eligible to vote there. And neither are you.
[url= https://israel.indymedia.org/mod/comments/display/5431/index.php ]Israel is not without it's share of fanatics:[/url]
[b]"Zionist Rabbi Calls For Extermination Of Palestinian Males
A Jewish rabbi living in the West Bank has called on the Israeli government to use their troops to kill all Palestinian males more than 13 years old in a bid to end Palestinian presence on this earth.
Extremist rabbi Yousef Falay, who dwells at the Yitzhar settlement on illegally seized Palestinian land in the northern part of the West Bank, wrote an article in a Zionist magazine under the title "Ways of War", in which he called for the killing of all Palestinian males refusing to flee their country, describing his idea as the practical way to ensure the non-existence of the Palestinian race.
"We have to make sure that no Palestinian individual remains under our occupation. If they (Palestinians) escape then it is good; but if anyone of them remains, then he should be exterminated", the fanatic rabbi added in his article."[/b]
I'm afraid that I can't accept your views on this, as they seem to be contrary with what most of the rest of the World thinks. Your attempts to justify the genocidal actions of your government are, in my opinion, pathetic. and, you've conveniently omitted to mention your nation's disgraceful track record in terms of breaches of Human Rights, the Geneva Convention, and the repeated calls by the global community to cease the wanton slaughter of innocent people.
Wharg said
"I can't help thinking that the Palestinians would have had their state a long time ago if they had only chosen peaceful protest as a means of acheiving their legitimate aims. "
Yes there fault nothing to do with your countries (oops sorry the legitimate soverign state you choose to settle erm I mean live in ) action there just there fault.
[i]I can't help thinking that the Palestinians would have had their state a long time ago if they had only chosen peaceful protest as a means of acheiving their legitimate aims.[/i]
Of all your crock of self-justifying shit, this is probably the biggest turd. The Palestinians have been under attack from Day Zero, and no amount of concession and restraint on their part has led to anything, whether it be Camp David, Olso, or the recent ceasefire. All agreements have been cynically violated by an Israeli side with the sure knowledge that its abuses of power would be underwritten by a US administration bought and paid for by the Jewish/Fundy lobby.
My message to you, as an Israeli, is simply this: **** off. Come back when your fellow voters have earned the right to join the international community.
What I cant understand is the Israeli tactics didnt this sort of thing fail spectaculary in Lebanon a few years back when the Israeli army got its @rse kicked by Hezbollah.
Surely Ulster has shown that the only way to end a terrorist threat is to sit down and talk. For all that we threw at the IRA we never came close to wiping them out.
DrJ, please, let's not descend into abuse. This has been a relatively civil discussion so far.
I can understand people's anger over this, as I'm pretty wound up by it. And it's pretty infuriating to read stuff like Whargrider's post, when more innocent people are being killed by the Israeli military.
But Whargrider is entitled to their opinion, as we all are. Granted, there's bugger all we can do, sitting behind our keyboards, but if we at least listen to each others views, and try to understand this mess better, then at least we might be able to get on a little bit better. Accept that we all have differing opinions.
After all, it is meant to be a bike forum, and a place for friendly chat and stuff. Anger and hatred aren't going to
serve any of us.
And I know that many Israeli people do not share Whargrider's views, and are opposed to their goevernment's actions.
Agreed, RudeBoy, and apologies to you for that, but I think it has to be understood that actions have consequences, and that Israelis in general cannot expect that the man on the Clapham omnibus is going to forget everything and extend the hand of friendship while their elected government is pursuing a vile policy of slaughter of innocent people.
[i]Surely Ulster has shown that the only way to end a terrorist threat is to sit down and talk. For all that we threw at the IRA we never came close to wiping them out.[/i]
Abser****inlootely. If there was an economy in Gaza that was not destroyed by Israel, a young guy looking to feed his family could go out and work in a shop, or an olive oil factory, or pursue his career as a graphic designer, or go to university. Now all he can do is go work for Hamas, whether he wants to or not. The Israelis, in a spectacular show of brutalilty and stupidity have ensured that Hamas is the only game in town. If I were paranoid I'd suspect it was deliberately done, just to get the excuse to fulfill their real goal of driving the Palestinians into the sea.
Tankslappper,
Regarding accusations of a disproportionate response. It is a clear fact and understatement that the Palestinians are suffering a great deal more than we are. However, if the aim is to stop the ability of the Hamas and its allies to attack, this cannot be acheived by attacking them a little bit, as this guarantees failure, it involves killing enough of their fighters to force them into submission. There have been minor incursions into Gaza resulting in no useful outcome and several soldiers coming back in body bags. Negotiation has been tried, largely through Egyptian mediation and failed. I don't know if the present action will work but the time for tolerance has passed. Hamas cannot demand normal relations as well as the right to launch rockets.
It is very true that the outcome of this fighting is unclear. Will it have the effect of stopping the Hamas attacks? I hope so. Unfortunately the only guaranteed outcome is that the people who die will be dead, those suffering will continue to suffer, and the levels of hatred will have been stoked. What do you suggest we do, allow the rockets to continue? The intent of Hamas seems to be to turn themselves and their population into Shahidin (Martyrs) for some insane religious/political end, instead of building a situation where they can live and work in peace. What I am trying to say is that they too have responsibility for this situation.
I have a baby girl and a three year-old son, I cannot watch Palestinian children being killed and maimed due to the actions of my government without asking myself if the lives of my children are worth more than theirs. The answer is surely not, but on this occasion I cannot see how the situation could be avoided. A woman at work lost her nephew a while back to a Hamas rocket when he drove to a meeting in Sderot for work. I live just out of range of the rockets, people I work with live in range, and are sleeping in shelters, the children in my village are at home because their school is in range. No government on earth would allow this to happen to their population, we don't have the luxury of being "popular", when under attack before without any large scale response were we popular? I don't think so.
Britain has also faced attack by Islamic fanatics of a similar mind-set on the London Transport system, after turning a blind eye to the activities of exhiled fundamentalists resident in Britain for over a decade. Such atrocities are a logical conclusion of their preached philosophy. Britain has also invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. Britain and France drew-up the borders of the Middle East at the end of WW1. Britain sanctioned the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine in the 1917 Balfour Declaration, and governed as a colonial power until the going got rough. Britain has no right to claim the moral high ground. Some British people may be disgusted by the actions of their goverment and military, but the terrorist intent on killing them will not ask about their sentiments. I also hold British citizenship, and therefore am doubly deserving of self-righteous condemnation in the minds of those who fail to make the distinction between someones nationality and some sort of moral culpability for a situation out of their control.
[i]I have a baby girl and a three year-old son, I cannot watch Palestinian children being killed and maimed due to the actions of my government without asking myself if the lives of my children are worth more than theirs. The answer is surely not, but on this occasion I cannot see how the situation could be avoided[/i]
Please, I'm going to puke. You can make a start on avoiding killing children by simply not dropping bombs on schools. Simple enough, I would have thought.
What do you suggest we do, allow the rockets to continue?
I suggest you get out of the occupied territories.
I suggest that you stop taking land from the Palestinians.
I suggest that you stop destroying the livelihoods of Palestinians.
I suggest that you go back to your homeland.
See, Whargrider, I could take you more seriously, if you actually bothered to consider why the Palestinians are so enraged against Israel. Do you seriously think they would attack Israel, a much more powerful military force, for no good reason? That is what you must ask of your society.
As for the rocket attacks, whilst not wishing to justify the actions of murderers, have you considered the informaiton that ernie lynch included in his post earlier, about the dropping of cluster anti-personel bombs in the West Bank? Have you any idea what devastation these devices cause? And have you no idea of the use of chemical and biological weapons, by your country's military?
[url= http://www.antiwar.com/orig/brooks.php?articleid=2957 ]Use of nerve gas by Israel[/url]
You have to accept the fact, that your nation is seen as an evil agressor, by most of the World's people. And with good reason. Israel has refused to sign up to any International agreements regarding the disclosure of weapons of mass destruction, something which even Iraq did. And there is proof of the use of weapons, as banned under the Geneva Convention, by Israel, in Lebanon and Palestine.
Your nation has forfeited the right to expect sympathy. If you want to know why, then look at the facts, and stop burying your head in the sand.
I can't help thinking that the Palestinians would have had their state a long time ago if they had only chosen peaceful protest as a means of acheiving their legitimate aims.
Yep, without a doubt. Not blowing people up worked better for the IRA than blowing them up. In fact if it wasn't for the IRA there'd have been a united independent Ireland in the 50s. You could blame the Germans I suppose...
Ernie Lynch,
"I suggest you get out of the occupied territories."
I personally am not in them but agree thet my government should absolutely get out instead of bowing to the extremist settlers. Did we not already pull out of Gaza?
"Stop taking land from Palestinians," I agree absolutely.
"Stop destroying the livelihoods of Palestinians," an obvious pre-requisite for peace.
"Suggest that you go back to your homeland," it is your prerogative to suggest. I will come back to visit my family sometimes.
The state of Gaza is a direct result of decades of foolish Israeli governments' policy, indeed we reep what we sow. At some point though you have to put this aside. We pulled out of Gaza, and still we get attacked by potentially lethal rockets on a regular basis.
What would your suggested reaction be if you were similarly attacked, to sit by and let it happen?
[i]What would your suggested reaction be if you were similarly attacked, to sit by and let it happen?[/i]
If the Palestinians had a proper life with a future to build for - not a hole in the ground where an Israeli bomb dropped on their house, or a bullet in their head where a settler wanted their olive groves - then Hamas would not get volunteers to stick leaflets in letterboxes, let alone get themselves killed by shooting a pop-gun at the [s]US[/s] Israeli army.
You made this choice - maybe stupidly, maybe cynically - yours is the responsibility for the consequences.
Did we not already pull out of Gaza?
Ah, I see that you didn't read the article by Seumas Milne which I posted earlier.
Let me repeat :
[b]"But that is to turn reality on its head. Like the West Bank, the Gaza Strip has been - and continues to be - illegally occupied by Israel since 1967. Despite the withdrawal of troops and settlements three years ago, Israel maintains complete control of the territory by sea, air and land. And since Hamas won the Palestinian elections in 2006, Israel has punished its 1.5 million people with an inhuman blockade of essential supplies, backed by the US and the European Union."[/b]
