Any interest for a Forum only Membership?

Must be pretty demoralising for them I imagine. 😐

Thread started on a Friday night as well 🙃 Would be properly crap to finally finish your weeks work and then read this thread.

Very little empathy and quite a lot of entitlement on show but hey, that’s the internet. Am sure everyone would be lovely in the pub.

We are working on the forum! But there was an awful lot on the website (websites, as it was) that needed doing first. If we hadn’t done that, we probably wouldn’t be here. Coin/like/token/appreciation button is now in place - something that’s become something of a meme in here over the years as you’ve waited for it. Another bug squish is coming next week to fix a few more bits. As I said in a newsletter before Christmas, it’s been a lot to get things to a level of stability where we’re squashing bugs instead of completely taking the site down when we try and launch things.

(I am on holiday, btw, so anyone who does email me this week with mag suggestions and feedback is going to get my out of office. But I am interested in knowing what you want to read - otherwise it’s like blogging into a black hole, with no feedback to learn from).

Edit/p.s: feedback isn’t demoralising for me, unless it’s of the variety of ‘I don’t read the magazine because it never covers x, y and z’, when x y and z ARE actually in the last issue, and the one before that, but because you don’t read the magazine, you don’t actually know it’s there! Complaining that you don’t like/want/read the mag without explaining why is just frustrating - I can’t learn from that. And, of course, I might just disagree with your view - I know I’ll never please everyone!

I’m not expert but I think the magazine and forum or more tightly linked than one might think. The forum clearly directs traffic from goggle searches, so more people know about the magazine.

Presumably the digital subs provides cash income but it must also boost advertising income in the magazine.

I’m really old fashioned and really like the paper magazine turning up.

I really must have a think about what else I’d like to see in the magazine

The mag is great. It oozes quality compared to the other MTB comics and is just more grown up and better written. I really enjoyed the story of Chipps' move to France in the latest one. In a wet, dreary British winter, dipping in and out of the mag lying by my bed keeps me enthused and looking forward to great riding days ahead. Keep up the good work 👍

Those of you that don’t read the mag/flick through and aren’t drawn in: what do you want to see?

Tbh I don't. I don't read or so articles and I'm not sure there's anything you can do about it.

Wjilst I love riding and love spending time with bikes, I don't much go in for reading about them.

If I were pushed for something, something like a Rob Warner Peru or G5 adventure, maybe something like Kilian Brons new video.

But probably the most interesting would be tech stuff. How to rebuild a shock/fork, build a wheel from scratch. But you're then battling YouTube.

Fwiw, when I've read Singletrack mag, it's been a good read. No argument from me that you're doing a great job. But it's just not often me.

Now. Last weeks updates broke some things. Those bugs have been pretty much squashed and a bug fixing update is due on Monday.

looking forward to Monday!I'm

On the back of this thread though, I'm going to go full mag subscription on payday. Full paper thing.

Let's give them a chance to inspire.

Things that need fixing:

1. Long wait time after pressing 'submit'

2. Broken quote function

3. Adverts covering the text box, so you can't see what you're writing

4. The spammy mess that gets spewed all over your  post when you try to copy and paste

Personally I'm not interesting in the magazine at all.  However STW is NOT a democracy - its a private playground we are invited to enter and I do pay after Marks plea at the beginning of covid.  If it were up to me it would be different but its not up to me.  Its up to Mark

Some folk need to remember that

I used to pay for the UK Climbing forum because it was a joy to use, it's a internationally recognised & regarded resource from a small enthusiastic UK based team of outdoor loving people. I hardly ever use the site any more as I climb far less than I used to so let my payment lapse.

I still pay for Pinkbike membership as their classifieds is second to none despite the theory here that it's full of "swap for my Xbox" comments.

Wjilst I love riding and love spending time with bikes, I don’t much go in for reading about them.

Yup same for me. The other problem is that the more I read about cycling the more I want to buy stuff which I definitely need but hadn't realised I needed.

I find that blissful ignorance saves a lot of money whilst I remain perfectly happy.

I'm no expert in how forums work in the background but I was a member of a car forum a number of years ago. It wasn't too dissimilar to Singletrack as it is now. The owner of the forum decided it needed updating as it was outdated and doing little upgrades here and there wasn't worth the effort Vs a big upgrade to a new platform. Anyway, once the forum was upgraded to a new and improved version everybody stopped visiting as they didn't like change, the forum died almost instantly even though it was "better".

I would compare this to the classified section, I think it's an improvement but I see many people saying it's awful and they won't even use it now and it should go back to the old way. I know most people don't like change but at least give things a chance.

And with the slow posting issue, I've found that if you click submit you can then follow another link whilst it's loading and it will still have posted your response. It seems like the issue isn't that the forum is slow to post a reply, its just slow in letting you know that it's worked.

Point missed.

Yes I see that now. However that was a pretty unhelpful response.

I pay for emtbforums. A forum that actually works! quotes, images, links. You wouldn't believe it.

Also they only talk emtb, not road or gravel and politics are banned, so unlikely to suit the majority of stw users.

Being an old timer I see the forum as nothing more than an advert for the magazine, expecially as it is so heavily plastered with other ads. I feel that purely by posting here I am supporting the magazine.

I pay nothing and wouldn't as I feel that I am making my contribution, espcially as I am not keen , but tolerate, some of the nasty politics posted.

Maybe I am missing the OPs point but do I not have a forum only membership already then as I gave up on the mag years ago, never click an advert and completely hate anything where people talk to me as I can read?

@ampthill has come the closest to summarising the reality of what Singletrack currently is.

Those of you that don’t read the mag/flick through and aren’t drawn in: what do you want to see?

Basically I am not interested in a MTB magazine.  No matter the content I wouldn't read it.

Can’t see what’s wrong with just taking out a digital sub. If you go much cheaper the cost of managing it outweighs the income.

only tweak I’d like to see is that sidebar removed >>>

It takes up a chunk of space on a iPad and is plugging articles from the home page and those same articles get dropped in as forum posts too.

From Mark’s post, I guess the assumption is that they would lose mag/digi subscribers if there was a forum only option. Folk would rather pay for that than a mag they don’t read.

I like the mag, I don't always get a chance to read the physical one so I cancelled then changed to a digital sub at the last call to arms. My boys like looking through the old mags im reminded to recycle. They're also used as pads to support paper to draw on by the boys.

I enjoy the articles but now dip in and out of it as I wish.

The forum has its issues but I more of a consumer than commenter.

I see no ads but the quote function with all the codey bits is a pain in the hoop to read.

But I am interested in knowing what you want to read – otherwise it’s like blogging into a black hole, with no feedback to learn from).

Yep. i totally agree that STW puts a huge amount of effort into writing a huge variety of articles about loads of different aspects. Really good compared to other mags. BUT the thing is that it is impossible for a small group of people to be able to cover all the bits that all the people want all of the time.  Your destination articles for example cover a huge range from aspiration right down to some fairly dull looking local rides in people's back yards.  The chances of the local rides being of interest to everyone are very slim. But that is inevitable given the format.

The forum however covers pretty much everything, which is the huge value of STW. When I Google stuff on mtb these days I don't write " mtb old man of Conniston " I write "site:singletrackworld.com old man of Conniston " because it is far and away the best site on the Internet for mtb.

Anywhere in the UK I want to ride, and loads of foreign places too, the info is here.

And it's exactly the same for bike tweaking. You get clear focussed advice on the issue you have at the time.

The fact is that it's impossible  for a magazine to provide that in depth info across such a broad amount of topics. That isn't a reflection on the writers, it's just an inevitable fact that they cannot hope to compete with the accumulated knowledge of x thousand subscribers.

It's that knowledge that I value, and was proposing a method of paying to access.

But I am interested in knowing what you want to read

I think I waffled above, so I'll try again. The answer is:

Wherever I'm off to next weekend, whatever is broken on my bike  or whatever I am about to buy for my bike.

The issue Isn't that StW Mag does this badly. It's just impossible for any mag to do this. But a forum can, amazingly well.

I've only got a subscription because I've been a forum member on and off since around 2004 and want to continue to hang out on here without adverts.

I could get the cheaper digital subscription but I much prefer hard copy magazine.

If there was a forum only sub option, I'd have that instead.

The mag is great. It oozes quality compared to the other MTB comics and is just more grown up and better written.

For me, I am happy to pay for the digital sub as I don't really have time or space for printed media any longer, yet do occasionally read the articles online.

I too get frustrated by how the STW forum appears to run, it does have too many quirks and 'problems' that to the average 'non-interweb back office' pleb such as I can't understand why they are not sorted - but by and large it is a great place.

One answer, as mentioned loads, is for STW to use a proprietary forum platform, like Emtb etc - but I fear it will come at the expense of losing the family feel that we have now. To me, this forum feels like the warm chair by the fire on a cold winters day, and it would be sad to see it morph into a generic 3 piece suite, even if said suite was more comfy.

Maybe a question of 'What do you want to change on the forum' could be asked. I believe there will be 4 or 5 things that come out overwhelmingly on the top. If those could be addressed, maybe even by using some of the collective member skills (giving back etc), then 95% of us would be happy I'm sure.

If the changes where possible but with a cost outside of the STW budget, I would like to think there are a few us of here that could/would chip in as a one off payment to help. Clearly a lot more thought needs to be behind such things, but not all of us are asking for a 'cheaper' option, instead simply wanting something that works better.

One answer, as mentioned loads, is for STW to use a proprietary forum platform,

As Mark has repeatedly explained this will not work with the integration with the magazine and the different levels of access that is then required and also with integration into the history of the forum

I pay mainly for the forum and the articles plus digital sub are a nice bonus. These threads irk me a bit as I’m a damn sight poorer than a lot that post on here but happy to pay a couple of quid per month for something I get so much out of. There aren’t many places like this, at least not that I’m aware of. It’s worth paying to keep it.

Well  so far the answers seem to suggest to the contrary. There appears to be a fair few who are just subscribing for the forum. But the irritating thing is that we’re being ignored.

I dunno. My take is that although I'm not massively inspired by the magazine content and some of the endless long-form digital articles, I'm happy enough to pay for a digital sub to help support the forum and the stuff I do want to read. If the cost of a digital sub were prohibitive, I might think differently, but right now, it seems like a small price to pay.

Maybe a halfway house would be a forum donation button so you can choose to make contribution specifically to support the forum side of things, though I think you'd have to accept that there's probably no way of ensuring that it goes only towards forum upkeep.

Everyone likes different aspects of the site, you can choose to make a relatively small payment and pick and choose which bits you like. I don't really have a problem with that and I don't want some bloated, over-complicated gimmicky forum software coming between me and content.

How much would you pay for a forum-only subscription is the question I guess. And how much would that have to be to offset potential ad revenue income for the site if it turned out to be as popular as you think? And then of course the potential loss of digital subscriptions to forum-only ones.

Thats pretty much how I see it.  I value this place and don't want it to go bust hence paying for a subscription. I've no interesting in the magazine at all

its not run how I would run it but that is beside the point.  Its run how Mark and Hannah run it.  their priorities are different to mine

its not run how I would run it

Forum needs a ‘sigh of relief’ button 😀

Oh, fwiw, I don't have huge issues with the actual forum functionality here,  but for the last week or so, the main site articles won't display images if I'm using Safari. I e-mailed tech about it and didn't even get a reply. The Sun and Pedalon are the other two sites that do the same, no idea why, but I can always use Chrome and see the pretty pictures.

I suppose I could throw a whole 'I give you money, fix it!' strop over it, but it's probably some niche coding thing designed to punish those of us who don't upgrade our compute every six months 🙂

I pay to support the mag because I've been in print journalism and design since the mid 70s.

I'll be sad to see it go. And at some point it will.

I've just had to close our three local newspapers due to the massive increase in print and production costs and a fixed/declining readership. I've worked on them for 12 years and it is heartbreaking.

EDIT and though I don't post on much other than the guitar threads this is the only none news or guitar forum I use. TDPRI TGP and The Fretboard get a lot of stuff from me but when I need bike advice its here I come, and i've not been let down yet.

No, I have no interest in a forum only membership.

Why is it these topics always descend into an argument between various folk who simply don't take time to actually read the OP?

Nobody is criticising the magazine or its content.

Nobody is proposing dropping the mag or running the place solely as a forum. I believe the OP was intended as a means to funnel more money into the forum in addition to the magazine. Clearly people aren't happy and as you have said on numerous occasions short of everyone being subscribers you need happy punters to keep the place alive.

Stop with the "freeloader" bollocks. It's been pointed out time and time again that the free members subsidise the place via ad revenue and that subscribers don't even come close to paying the bills. If you want to kill this place then biting the hand that feeds is a good way to go about it.

Spot on squirrelking.

I like the (physical) mag, and that is essentially what I pay for.

I spend way more time on the forum, but see it as part and parcel of my subscription.

As a full member, I have virtually no issues or problems with Ads or functionality of the forum, so maybe I've missed what people are complaining about. Occasionally it's a little buggy, but works well for me 99% of the time.

As others have said, what would those just wanting a forum expect to pay given the digital sub is just 50p per week?

Oh, and I think the classifieds is also fine, I have built my last 5 bikes in the last 3 years pretty much from stuff people have been getting rid of on here ... and I find it much better than Pinkbike classifieds.

In terms of suggested improvements:

- 'Sold' classifieds adds should be hidden/be deleted after a short period of time (it's a bit of a drag scrolling through pages of Sold ads and 'featured ads' before you get to the new standard ads)

- easier posting of images (ie straight from your phone) to forum posts ... not sure why this can happen with Classifieds, but not the forum?

- I wonder whether some of the better forum topics can be more creatively used to inspire features/mag articles? It's happened a bit, eg the Giant warranty saga resulted in a feature and a podcast, but things like TJs summer tour would, I think, have made for a great mag/online feature. Or, the journey of Weeksy and his lad in going Enduro/DH racing? More of this would, perhaps, create a stronger link between the mag/website and the forum?

- and picking up some of Weeksy's comments, there's a lot of 'how to' knowledge on the forum, how about using the wealth of knowledge on here to provide some online 'repair/fettling' guides/notes etc?

It's ironic that many of those in favour of subsiding the magazine are unable to read and understand the OP.

I don't want to quote everything that @thegeneralist wrote above, but it does encapsulate my thoughts.

The whole concept of a magazine feels completely outdated when I can find many relevant product reviews online, I can get all sorts of up-to-date technical advice, route suggestions, condition reports, fitness tips etc when I want them, not take pot-luck to see what's published in a magazine and whether or not it's relevant to me.

Take my money, fix the forum.

Take my money, fix the forum.

Pleeeeeeeease fix the login issues. Still having to double log in every time I visit. Totally agree with concept of forum only. The STW hive mind is a special thing that no amount of freelance commsissioned travelogue articles in a glossy mag can beat. Sorry ed team, it's just the way it is. The forum started at the right time, right place and it drives the interest in the site.

I treat the digital only subscription as a forum subscription, and apart from the time taken to post and the silliness of the quotes function the forum works well enough for me. I'm happy, happy enough that I donated on top of my annual membership when \Mark appealed at the start of the cost of living crisis.

As for the mag, I just don't ride mountain bikes much anymore, mainly ride on road. I think the mag in itself is pretty well written and has high production values, trouble is I'm not a hardcore rider planning multi day trips in foreign climes. I ride locally and trail build. I'd like to see a lot more content aimed at the average rider that's not so aspirational and maybe more insight into everyday riding, go out with some real riders to see what there local loop is actually like (I hear there's some good local trails behind the Nationwide in Swindon). Also be nice to see some stuff on how trails are built, how the contractors do it, get the Forestry Commissions take on biking, hell come and spend some quality time with the active local trail builders, the Gisburn group has been going for 15 years and Singletraction longer than that, I don't think many riders have any idea how much work and thought goes into building sustainable trails.

Maybe an article or two on how people often start to migrate to road as they get older, seems to be a common theme on here.

Apologies if all that is in the current mag, haven't really been interested for quite a while which is why I ditched the paper mag, I am never likely to end up bike packing in the Alps

"Thats pretty much how I see it. I value this place and don’t want it to go bust hence paying for a subscription. I’ve no interesting in the magazine at all"

I agree with TJ shocker.  I view my digital subscription as supporting the forum indirectly as if the magazine went bust the forum would as well.  £25 a year is worth it for a place as useful and entertaining as the forum.

A pity it is so hard to post pics here compared to any other forum but that's just old ground I guess.

Take my money, fix the forum

How much software dev can you buy with £40 or whatever your subscription is?

I also think that a pay to use forum would die on it's arse with too few users. What makes STW so unique is the large diverse range of posters, of only a small number of which would probably pay for a members only forum. You need lots of free users to provide content for the smaller number of paying users.

On the topic of images, the reason you can't upload your images to the forum is not a technical one. It could be done easily. The issue for us that we'd be hosting your images on our server and that isn't without risk. I have legal concerns in the undoubtedly fringe cases where we are found to be hosting copyright material. Other platforms can kind of skirt around that by claiming they are NOT publishers but just platforms. We, most certainly ARE a publisher - so that makes me nervous. In the classifieds we sort of cover ourselves (Maybe) by insisting you tick a box asserting that you have all the rights needed to publish images. Not much a problem there when the vast majority of images are the ones taken by the person posting the ad. On the forum I'm not so sure it wouldn't lead to some issues we'd need to deal with. So it's less that we can't do it and more that I don't want the agro. Maybe I'm worrying over nothing though so I'm not ruling that out.

I would happily pay on top of my subscription for photo hosting. But I understand the copyright thing would certainly keep me up at night. I do also read some of the reviews and some of the articles in the mag.

FWIW.

I've subscribed for years.

Digital only because I really can't be arsed with the magazine. Don't know why because I used to read it cover-cover. I do occasionally read the web review-type articles (those on the right-hand side -> ).

Happy to pay to keep the forum and the family going.

In terms of magazines, the only ones I read now are WSC (When Saturday Comes) and Private Eye. I get the CyclingUK mag too - and do read their tech articles. Dan Joyce is a legend, and I miss Chris Juden.

WSC is a weird one because I don't watch football and my interest disappears above the 4th tier (Scottish League 2 for example) - but they do some superb articles on the ethics and finance of the game, and there's a light touch of humour too.

They realise how pointless the activity is.

I’ll try and explain again why I don’t think forum only  membership works . Although I accept that I could be wrong because I’m a teacher whose never run a business

let’s imagine the you can buy a forum only membership or a digital subscriber membership

Which would you charge more for?

Well I’m guessing the marginal cost of a adding a forum only membership is more than assuming a digital subscriber

That’s because both memberships cost in terms of less web adverts. But the digital subscriber increases magazine advertising revenue the forum only subscriber doesn’t

So a forum only membership costs more

Now I realise there’s another argument where you say forum only membership shouldn’t be expected to prop up the magazine. Well the team seem fairly determined to keep their jobs and run things with a team. It’s their business  I support them