the vaccine spike proteins can alter their DNA and render them infertile.
Struggling to see a downside to that, tbh. Certainly a win for the rest of us.
I don't think it's fair to lump everyone at that demo under one category. Even within the Anti-Vaxers there are different groups.
As has been pointed out some just have a concern about the speed we've developed and distributed our response to Covid-19. You can say all the words you want about the amount of resource poured in and the robustness of the testing but you do need to see it from some folks point of view and their previous experiences. Many of this group are happy with other vaccines
Then there are those who don't accept the seriousness of the current virus and don't see the need for this response. A few carefully drawn graphs using questionable data and off you go.
Next those who think that there isn't a virus at all.
There are those who are against any vaccine, for a variety of reasons including "it's all poison", "it's unnatural" and "it's against gods will".
Then - approaching loonyville - the folk who think there is a virus but it's been created and distributed intentionally for some nefarious reason to do with the Illuminati, Bill Gates or some shadowy secret supra-national control council. Look for use of the word Plandemic.
Asking one person on here to justify their reasons isn't going to get you close to understanding all of the above and I can see why they might not respond for fear of being linked with the proper loonies.
Fwiw
https://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-anti-vax-conspiracy
But its on MSM (Tuesday 9pm Channel 4) so clearly won't cover the same ground as all the skilled investigative journalists on YouTube, Twitter etc
I wouldn’t wish other families to have to go through the Covid experience. It wasn’t very nice, and the fear of watching a loved one nearly die outweighs any trust-issues I have.
Well, regarding the blood clot issues with the AZ, one can understand some reluctance, rare though it is, but that barely seems to get a mention among the anti-vaxxers and other conspiracy nutters. In America, the right-wing aspect ties in very much with the Evangelical Dominionist mindset, where everything is God’s Will, and they’re working hard to establish conditions ready for His Return. Or so I understand.
And while watching someone nearly die is hard, it’s harder still watching them die, and the ongoing grief, knowing that, if the link between the vaccine and low platelet levels and other signifiers had become clearer earlier, then the jar of ashes I picked up earlier today would still be my lovely Joey.
I would not, under any circumstances, however, tell anyone not to have the vaccine, just to ask for advice before hand based on age and gender; Joey was 55, so right in the age-range for women who might be at risk, but there’s still a higher risk for women who are pregnant and those taking the pill.
I now want to find a nice ceramic container with a tight fitting lid so I can put her ashes next to the rose that bears her name.
Oh, and the Right Wing evangelical movement into government isn’t just in America, it’s happening in Australia, as well as other countries.
https://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/religious-fundamentalists-railroad-democracy,15138?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=IA_Feed
@CountZero sorry for your loss. That is truly dreadful. Is that confirmed to be directly as a result of the vaccine? However it happened, my condolences.
I guess if you live in a country that allows freedom of speech then you are sometimes going to hear viewpoints of people/groups that you don't agree with. Probably a better option than living in a country that doesn't allow this freedom...
Don’t care what your opinion is. There are plenty of people I’d have a pint with who I don’t agree with. But for gods sake everyone get vaccinated. Think you’re a nice person? Not entitled? Well if you choose not to get the CV-19 vaccine you’re a selfish entitled arse.
Edit to add:
If you think you value health and social care and you’re refusing the vaccine - you’re deeply confused. Get vaccinated.
Sparks nails it.
to live in society means social responsibility. you are not an individual at a species level, you only think you are.
I think people struggle with the concept that, from a demographic standpoint, they are irrelevant. get lots of morons together, all of a sudden you increase the relevance and start having an impact. like a connected hub of poeple who are not immunologists, but have a bad feeling about this, who start to mess with the broader control.
we're only one or two generations away from withered limbs.
If you think you value health and social care and you’re refusing the vaccine – you’re deeply confused. Get vaccinated.
Well put. Deeply confused is probably a better and more helpful way of describing many anti-vaxxers.
Asking one person on here to justify their reasons isn’t going to get you close to understanding all of the above and I can see why they might not respond for fear of being linked with the proper loonies.
It will allow us to understand what angle they are coming from. I won't be linking them with anything. I have doubts over any long term effects of any new vaccine as it is not possible to know if there are any and if something comes out in 2 years times it is a bit late when probably 90% of the UK have had the vaccine.
I have weighed that unknown risk against having a fully vaccinated population and have had the vaccine.
If people on this thread had a similar concern then I think that is fair enough but would still like to understand why they felt the need to go on a rally about their personal decision.
MIL is a life long leftie, supporter of the NHS, Lib Dem councillor and recent anti vaxxer (full blown Bill Gates microchip / David Ike ? Andrew Wakefield etc). She seems to be a victim of getting information from youtube / facebook and getting suckered into the most emotive content. Maybe Tired charts need more mood music / aliens / robots / laser beams or something?
Upon being told she won't be seeing her children and therefore grandchildren (who include some acutely covid vulernable people) until she gets her jab she said (quoting verbim)
"I'm not being selfish, I'm just looking out for myself".
I had to leave the room to laugh, then come back.
I have weighed that unknown risk against having a fully vaccinated population and have had the vaccine.
Similar, I took the vaccine primarily to protect others, not myself.
“I’m not being selfish, I’m just looking out for myself”.
I had to leave the room to laugh, then come back.
Christmas sorted though. A dictionary, and if you can stretch to it a bookmark and a smudge of highlighter ink.
To more serious matters
Asking one person on here to justify their reasons isn’t going to get you close to understanding all of the above and I can see why they might not respond for fear of being linked with the proper loonies.
On here at least, there's too many that have decided they are all loonies already. And while the evidence often points that way, or at least to the fact of being misled, misinformed or misunderstanding, we're too quick to light the pitchforks so reasoned debate never really starts or if it does is drowned out by the yelling.
I know the counter argument - that they don't listen either and that it's time wasted, we can get straight to building the gallows before we've wasted time on a trial but honestly, we should be better than that. If we can win the argument with one or two and change an opinion, is that not worth the effort of the lost time on the others?
There are many reasons folks may not want the vaccine, some rational, some plain ridiculous. But, as has been asked already....Why the need to go on an anti vaxx demo? No-one is making these people get a vaccine.
If CG is doing it to warn others or highlight the dangers of vaccination then you'd think she'd be more than happy to share her rational on here.
If she's doing it because she personally doesn't want the vaccine then that's her choice, but why bother going to protest given it would be far less hassle to just not turn up for her appointment?
Why the need to go on an anti vaxx demo? No-one is making these people get a vaccine.
No one was being conscripted to fight in Iraq. Do you think it was wrong for folk to demonstrate against the war? Depending on your reasons for being against this vaccine, taking to the streets to register a protest and try to get others to see the error of their ways is the very opposite of selfishness. Yes, it would be ideal if those same folk would debate it on here too but the response in the past few posts shows why that doesn't happen.
taking to the streets to register a protest and try to get others to see the error of their ways is the very opposite of selfishness.
Unless of course the pandemic is real. Then the mask-less mobbing of public space by individuals who are by their own admission ‘free’ from the civic duty of shielding both themselves and others becomes an act of (albeit unintentional/‘well intentioned’ if I’m being kind) aggression.
But how many are there because they are sticking it to the man, and how many genuinely believe the vaccine is harmful, or the virus is not, or whatever. As sillysilly said, I suspect a fair proportion of the former, but you're condemning all in the same breath, when the others if anything deserve patience and understanding.
Depending on your reasons for being against this vaccine, taking to the streets to register a protest and try to get others to see the error of their ways is the very opposite of selfishness. Yes, it would be ideal if those same folk would debate it on here too but the response in the past few posts shows why that doesn’t happen.
If I felt so strongly about something that I go and use my own time in a rally then I would 100% be up for a debate on here. If their thinking does not hold up to scrutiny they can maybe reconsider or just walk away, their choice. It is only a discussion on a bike forum.
Just seems a big weak to boast that you went on a rally but won't even attempt to back it up because people will give you a hard time.
won’t even attempt to back it up because people will give you a hard time.
Hard time is OK, but will they get a fair hearing? Or are minds already closed they they are just selfish idiots?
Or are minds already closed they they are just selfish idiots?
Pretty much.
Hard time is OK, but will they get a fair hearing? Or are minds already closed they they are just selfish idiots?
My mind isn't closed and I want to hear what they have to say. And if they don't like the responses/can't back up what they are saying to the more aggressive posters then again they can walk away.
Always remember, it is just an anonymous discussion on a bike forum.
If people did a little research they will find that it wasn't an Anti-Vax rally it was actually a "Freedom Rally"
There was hundreds of thousands of people there with no violence and the majority are normal folk trying to protect the Civil Liberties and Freedoms that are being taken away from us and our children from right under our noses.
Christmas sorted though. A dictionary, and if you can stretch to it a bookmark and a smudge of highlighter ink.
Genius!
40 posts on since CG admitted she was in London and nobody has stopped to consider WHY they were there. People have worked this up so much now they are assuming CG was the person with the tinfoil hat on!
Reasons they could have been there:
Anti anti vax protester, facing the other way.
Supporting a friend who was protesting.
Sightseeing and got caught up in it.
Holding placards for the protest.
It doesn't sound like many people really want to hear CG's opinion or beliefs on the subject now, they are just waiting for them to show up to tell them why they are wrong. It's turning in to a witch hunt, not..
Always remember, it is just an anonymous discussion on a bike forum
Fair play to CG for not coming back to this thread, it would be one sided carnage...
If people did a little research they will find that it wasn’t an Anti-Vax rally it was actually a “Freedom Rally”
There was hundreds of thousands of people there with no violence and the majority are normal folk trying to protect the Civil Liberties and Freedoms that are being taken away from us and our children from right under our noses.
Are you referring to Glasgow as per OP or London?
and nobody has stopped to consider WHY they were there.
Tbh I’m not sure why any of them thought it was necessary so if some could come up with an explanation that would be great. Not sure why not being prepared to a actually back up your beliefs garners fair play
Fair play to CG for not coming back to this thread, it would be one sided carnage…
Well that doesnt make for a strong or decisive argument now does it. You'll never convince anyone if you dont engage. Or are unwilling to listen to counter arguments, or are forced to prove your point.
... folk trying to protect the Civil Liberties and Freedoms that are being taken away from us and our children from right under our noses.
Hi.
Which freedoms and civil liberties in particular and to save posting too many questions, in your view, how does removal of qualified rights balance against an ongoing pandemic?
Which freedoms and civil liberties in particular and to save posting too many questions, in your view, how does removal of qualified rights balance against an ongoing pandemic?
Well, I guess the right to protest might be an example - the selective use of police powers. Another example might be the way govt has enacted laws without due debate. Covid is an excuse for both. Whether such things are justified or not depends on how you see the notion of "live free or die". And also we will see what happens post-Covid. Or will there never be a "post-Covid", and we're now stuck?
Or are unwilling to listen to counter arguments, or are forced to prove your point
Oh the ironing...
This is actual Darwinism in action, I have no issue with that.
By the way, I did a scientific study with a sample of just me. Last March, I got COVID and nearly died.
This January I got a vaccine and felt a bit ropey for 24hrs then carried on as normal. Same thing happened with second vaccine in Feb. I have therefore concluded that vaccine is better than COVID.
If I felt so strongly about something that I go and use my own time in a rally then I would 100% be up for a debate on here. If their thinking does not hold up to scrutiny they can maybe reconsider or just walk away, their choice. It is only a discussion on a bike forum.
You say that with such conviction!
Approximately 35-40% of voters are Tory supporters, how many are willing to have a discussion concerning their political views on here?
Pretty much none. I did see someone post a couple of months back on the Boris Johnson thread the comment "I like Boris", you can imagine the reaction, they didn't of course elaborate nor did they repeat their wildly controversial and outrageous comment.
It wasn't always the case though, before this place was politically cleansed to be the squeaky clean echo chamber it is today, by liberal-minded pompous guardian readers, it had lively and challenging debates which included contributions from Telegraph and Daily Mail readers.
It took a period of sustained intolerance and bullying to achieve this, and a bit of administrative help such as the banning of direct links to the Daily Mail.
The only person who seems to make political threads lively and unpredictable these days is binners with his colourful and unique rants, but he obviously gets an easy ride as he reads the Guardian.
I reckon CG has shown great wisdom by not responding to those who were itching to tear her apart, even though her views on the covid vaccines are almost certainly completely daft....imo of course.
As someone who spent 15 years in pharma manufacturing (injectable steriles) and involved in the launch of many new drugs i was suprised at the speed of development and production.
However i also understand you have to take some risks and risk acceptance is part of our lives (less so over the years)
I have had both AZ jabs and they may not be the answer to all our challenges, in fact i think looking at the data on variants we now have something closer to a Flu at best.
If individuals choose not to be vaccinated well it is their choice but the implications are not theirs alone. National/global disaster (War, Pandemic) will always remove civil liberties as the control methods are retained for further events.
If people want a fight then they should be fighting the commercialisation of our NHS data as this is likely to have a far greater impact on individuals rights to pensions, insurance, life cover etc and ultimately leave them vulnerable or paying huge premiums.
I would class myself as an individual who is more "militant" than most on civil liberties in part due to working in data protection but you have to pick your fights and anti vax is not one of them. Brexit alone has removed more rights than any legislation around covid yet few see that. I always find it odd that people dont see/confront the issues in plain sight.
As an ex pharma engineer i would like to hear CGs reasons, not to batter her down i am genuinely interested in them and their origins.
Or are minds already closed they they are just selfish idiots?
100%.
My ex is very much against vaccination and is busy frittering away my savings on supplements and alternative therapies when she could get modern medicine for free, but she has sound arguments and evidence for her approach, and ultimately that’s her choice and her right. I don’t agree with it and I don’t like it, but I have to accept it.
A handful of anti-vaxxers aren’t going to make a difference to this virus anyway. They don’t need to be cancelled, and nobody deserves to be vilified in the way they are.
Why is the self-righteous elite not angry instead with the larger unjabbed communities where the problems really lie?
Why is the self-righteous elite not angry instead with the larger unjabbed communities where the problems really lie?
I think (generalising wildly) that the larger unjabbed communities are often in parts of society with trust issues concerning how they are treated by the state (stop and search, Windrush etc), and don't have the faith in the inherent goodness of the establishment that we middle class IT managers(*) have.
(* other professions are available)
As someone who spent 15 years in pharma manufacturing (injectable steriles) and involved in the launch of many new drugs i was suprised at the speed of development and production.
In perspective. On development, how often is the planets scientific community working on one thing ?. Individual manufacturers probably work on different drugs etc, but in this case all were working towards the same goal, and money and staffing was no object.
Well, I guess the right to protest might be an example – the selective use of police powers. Another example might be the way govt has enacted laws without due debate. Covid is an excuse for both. Whether such things are justified or not depends on how you see the notion of “live free or die”. And also we will see what happens post-Covid. Or will there never be a “post-Covid”, and we’re now stuck?
A concern I share, but that's straying from the OPs post about antivax.
I disagree with her view, but I can understand why CG doesn't come back into the bear pit here to try and explain it. The fact that the language she'd be faced with would be consistently insulting being the main one.
Intimidation isn't debate, which is why we often see more of the former than the latter
I think (generalising wildly) that the larger unjabbed communities are often in parts of society with trust issues concerning how they are treated by the state (stop and search, Windrush etc), and don’t have the faith in the inherent goodness of the establishment that we middle class IT managers(*) have.
IIRC in the case of CG there are some very serious trust issues, justified or otherwise, concerning a past perceived lack of duty of care by the NHS. I don't recall the details other than she had to source her own treatment for a debilitating condition, she felt completely failed by the NHS.
My experiences of the NHS have almost always been totally exemplary, consequently my level of trust is extremely high.
Why is the self-righteous elite not angry instead with the larger unjabbed communities where the problems really lie?
Is that some sort of loaded code/question for ‘Are people who support SARS-CoV vaccinations angry at __________ (you’ll have to fill in the blank because I’m otherwise guessing)?’
I’m (Hobson’s choice fashion) pro-vaccine as a response to SARS-CoV. If that makes me ‘self-righteous’ or ‘the Elite’ then bring the evidence.
I read a lot of this ‘The Elite’ label of late. It seems to mean any number of things from ‘professional global vampire/paedo pizza rings’ to ‘The Jewish Oberlizards’, all the way down the tree to ‘someone who doesn’t like the very same BS spewed by tabloids and talk radio/grifters.
Are there other ‘elites’? Maybe GPs? Are they the ‘elite’? Teachers? ‘We don’t need no education’ etc? Or is it a catch-all term for people who disagree with those whom they refer to as ‘sheeple’? Or for those people who don’t use words such as ‘plandemic’ etc? Who are ‘the Elite’? (Do I capitalize it or not?)
My ex is very much against vaccination and is busy frittering away my savings on supplements and alternative therapies when she could get modern medicine for free, but she has sound arguments and evidence for her approach, and ultimately that’s her choice and her right. I don’t agree with it and I don’t like it, but I have to accept it.
But doesn’t moaning and disagreeing with her on here make you the very same ‘self-righteous elite’ that you are complaining about?
What if you didn’t agree and instead took to the streets and tried to encourage other people not to agree with it? What would that make you?
Well, I guess the right to protest might be an example – the selective use of police powers. Another example might be the way govt has enacted laws without due debate
The right to protest, are we talking the Police and Crime bill, not a Covid law and possibly drafting predates lockdown. The lack of due debate and use of SIs is concerning but as far as I know the actions have remained legal if not palatable. I’m not sure either of those link to anti vax or mask refusal though.
I understand having trust issues with 'big pharma'. Ben Goldacre's book is interesting reading.
But - and it's a big but (and I cannot lie) - that doesn't mean we should start filling the gaps with whatever horseshit comes to mind.
It it was a "Freedom" rally and not an anti-vac, anti-mask rally, which I was led to believe from OPs wording then that will be a whole other list of reasons as to why somebody would go.
Some of us are just genuinely interested in the reasons for anti-vax from someone who would actually discuss them but looks like that won't happen here through some fear of some overly vocal people on a bike forum.
Posting a comment along the lines of pro anti-vax is bound to get a reaction and then not following up after that is text book trolling isn't it?
p7eaven, could you READ any more into a single word?
Self-righteous elite: the ones who know best and feel in a position to ridicule those with other views.
How about a bit of tolerance?
How about a bit of tolerance?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6657116/ im ok with intolerance for anti vaxxers peronsally.
