… folk trying to protect the Civil Liberties and Freedoms that are being taken away from us and our children from right under our noses.
Hi.
Which freedoms and civil liberties in particular and to save posting too many questions, in your view, how does removal of qualified rights balance against an ongoing pandemic?
Posted 2 hours ago
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Couple links below for UK but plenty others...and worldwide some have been even worse.
Also with regards to ongoing Pandemic...the link below is pretty hash!
Australia link
Self-righteous elite: the ones who know best and feel in a position to ridicule those with other views.
So far I’ve kept my mouth entirely shut in the family and around friends who have a ‘different’ view. It’s not my place to shout people down just for having a different opinion. Disseminating different PUBLIC ‘facts’ under the guide of opinion is a different matter and I will exercise my privilege to debate and agree or disagree.
Back to family and friends However, for not toeing their line I/we’ve been called ‘sheeple’ (both directly and indirectly), also have received emails calling me ‘wilfully ****ing stupid’ and informed that they have ‘washed their hands of’ me for having had a vaccination. So that’s me off the xmas card list. Although I do still get copied in on his mass emails exhorting me to go to Parler and somewhere called magainfo, plus links to a bunch of youtube anti-‘Marxist’ conspiracy grifters
One also came barging into our home with no mask or notion of distancing (during a lockdown) while Mrs P has co-morbidity, pulmonary weakness and age all against her. I still kept my mouth shut because it was her family. Nearly broke my teeth gritting. Did let a Qanon joke slip, to be fair. That went down like I’d just murdered their firstborn so it was back to us being called ‘stupid scared sheep’ and keeping our mouths shut. Bloody liberals, I know. So weak. So self-righteous. So Elite.
How about a bit of tolerance?
Absolutely,
Our neighbours/friends as a family have also been roundly disowned by her immediate family. They (the antivaxxers) physically restrained one family member when she wanted to go for her jab. My neighbour is the most gentle and agreeable soul you could imagine. Her family have gone full Trumpist though, so now she’s ‘the elite’ or a ‘leftard’ or somesuch.
How about a bit of tolerance?
Absolutely.
Patience too. So, I’ll ask again, politely and patiently:
Chrispo:
Why is the self-righteous elite not angry instead with the larger unjabbed communities where the problems really lie?
Is that some sort of loaded code/question for ‘Are people who support SARS-CoV vaccinations angry at __________ (you’ll have to fill in the blank because I’m otherwise guessing)?’
Ask me the question and I’ll answer openly and respectfully.
Thanks CG. I share your concerns around wider freedoms, if not the Covid vaccine.
Thanks CG. I share your concerns around wider freedoms, if not the Covid vaccine.
+1. CG were you at the ‘kill the bill’ protests?
Ask me the question and I’ll answer openly and respectfully.
Not entirely sure what you’re getting at. But basically what I’m alluding to is, for example, how come people think it ok to have a pop at white people who choose not to vaccinate but not ethnic communities?
Surely we should treat all the groups who may be putting themselves and others at risk the same?
There seems to me to be some cowardice in the baying mob as they pick the easy target.
Thanks CG, a compelling and completely different insight than probably a lot of people were expecting.
FWIW I've had my first dose of the Pfizer vaccine, I didn't like having it but it wasn't just for me.
But basically what I’m alluding to is, for example, how come people think it ok to have a pop at white people who choose not to vaccinate but not ethnic communities?
Because I have little experience with POC communities and I'm white. I don't have a valid view as far as the target audience is concerned. I can lend my tacit support to those on that frontline but active support will tend to be counter-productive.
Surely we should treat all the groups who may be putting themselves and others at risk the same?
That would make sense if all groups had been treated the same all along, but that's not the case, so groups find themselves in different circumstances, and with different attitudes to the powers-that-be.
(some examples listed here: https://qz.com/africa/1058121/african-slaves-were-both-medical-guinea-pigs-and-scientists-on-caribbean-plantations/)
But basically what I’m alluding to is, for example, how come people think it ok to have a pop at white people who choose not to vaccinate but not ethnic communities?
Surely we should treat all the groups who may be putting themselves and others at risk the same?
I wasn’t aware that it was a ‘white people’ protest? But your assumption/accusations rest on a few, er, assumptions
One assumption here is that there is a ‘baying mob’ having a pop specifically at ‘white people’. Where do you get that idea?
I don’t care if the person on the podium or in my face is white, brown, green, purple or orange. If they are spreading patently false conspiracist bollocks and scaring people into not vaccinating or into not social-distancing, masking etc etc then they I feel perfectly justified in responding in kind.
For the record Mts P is terrified of vaccinating. I haven’t involved myself in her decision, even though she has comorbidities and pulmonary weakness that has nearly killed her a couple of times (pre-Covid) Age also not on her side.
But if she had taken to the streets, maskless, spreading ‘fake news’ and scaring people into not vaccinating then I’d feel perfectly justified in disagreeing. Same goes for SIL who also fits your ‘ethnic community’ demographic whatever that is.
A question. Do you see a mob online ‘shaming’ people to wear masks? Or do you see a mob in the street picking on people who wear masks?
Have a watch at 1 min 46 (turn the sound up) before tou answer that question?
PS I googled ‘anti-mask’ hashtag on twitter and the top result was a pillock named ‘Prateek’. Does he fail the Chrispo ‘white people’ theory? I still don’t get your ‘point’ tbh
This also shows up first page:
https://twitter.com/ShabanaMir1/status/1397711651181416451
That wasnt the group when i was there last Saturday, so must have been earlier.
The clown in the tammy that was shouting at whomever was wearing the mask, I recognize his voice though, he was at/driving it.
Complete plonker.
But basically what I’m alluding to is, for example, how come people think it ok to have a pop at white people who choose not to vaccinate but not ethnic communities?
I'm not sure anyone here has had a pop at just the white anti vax people? No one has mentioned colour or ethnicity, just people who vaccinate and people who don't.
My understanding from the main thread is that race wasn't a factor with the risk as much as being from a poorer demographic. There may be any number of reasons why poorer people and non-white people may not be engaging with the vaccination programme.
Interestingly, it’s been noticed that not all of them speak English and this has also been the case in other European countries. Do we have an EU police force?
No of course we don’t, more so as we’ve left the EU 🙂
Why would there be police imported for some relatively small demonstrations.
Could you cite some evidence of this
For those who don’t know this organisation was set up by a member of the Rockefeller family. Nuff said.
Sorry but I have no idea what you’re implying, could you actually explain this?
The expression on some of their faces was troubling, they didn’t look human and some acted like brutes. Interestingly, it’s been noticed that not all of them speak English and this has also been the case in other European countries.
Is this a claim that the police officers can’t speak English, or just that they were heard using other languages? And what is this conflation of “didn’t look human” and perhaps not being “English”?
Well, I guess the right to protest might be an example
Tricky one with a pandemic as the act of protesting endangers the lives of others (not just those protesting). No one has a right to spread disease and endanger others.
@chrispo please don’t get upset at the name-calling in this thread, people are living in fear due to the Government’s narrative. They need support and kindness.
When you start talking about the Rockefellers and dark mutterings about people talking funny and a 'Euro Police force' it's quite clear you've fallen into the trap of conspiracy theory thinking. IIRC you had/have some genuine medical issues that weren't taken seriously and that has led you down this rather sad rabbit hole.
Sorry but I have no idea what you’re implying, could you actually explain this?
I wouldn't like to put words in her mouth but this looks awfully like the anti-semitic conspiracy theory that rich jews are secretly and sinisterly controlling the world (which seems to be very popular at the mo).
@chrispo - there does need to be more vaccine take-up amongst Asian communities (why not just come out and say what you mean?), but I don't see thousands of Asian people out in the streets telling other people they're idiot sheeple for taking it. I think the relatively densely populated multi-generational households including older people with limited English skills/community engagement outside their ethnic 'bubble' etc is more of an issue, and they have more reason than most to mistrust the government/authority.
If you actually look up some of the so called conspiracy theories, most of them have come true !
If you actually look up some of the so called conspiracy theories, most of them have come true !
🤔
So the world is flat?
fettlin
Full Member
Thanks CG, a compelling and completely different insight than probably a lot of people were expecting.
It's not compelling, it's dodging the subject entirely. 😆
And the government isn't really spreading fear, it's piss poorly reacting to a pandemdic. If it was good at spreading fear, 127,781 people might have faired better.
So the deflection isn't compelling in the slightest either.
As always, it's a multi faceted debate and you have to try wade through the background noise.
Big Pharma=bad.. there is truth to that, just look at the prescription heroin problem in the USA.
UK government being a bunch of duplictous liars, I'd probably agree 100% if not 95% with that.
So it's no supprise the anti vax thing is a thing. I too was sceptical initially, but i've had my first shot, as I try to look beyond the authors narrative in 'opinion' articles and pick out the facts and citations, and if there are none, well then it's not a news article.
but she has sound arguments and evidence for her approach,
Crispo - unfortunatly no she does not in any way. there is no evidence and no sound argument for putting children at risk by not vaccinating them.
I don’t see thousands of Asian people out in the streets telling other people they’re idiot sheeple for taking it.
I imagine most of those protesting are not actually saying that. I also imagine that on a demo not everyone agrees with everything said by the people with loudspeakers and that people tend to get carried away and that some are just out to cause trouble anyway. I also imagine that there are channels within other communities through which misinformation is spread, maybe just not as visibly. I’d be very surprised if any of these demos convince anyone suddenly not to take the vaccine, whereas more personal, private interactions might.
I think the relatively densely populated multi-generational households including older people with limited English skills/community engagement outside their ethnic ‘bubble’ etc is more of an issue, and they have more reason than most to mistrust the government/authority.
That’s quite a big assumption. I imagine (again!) that many of those on the demos have similar issues. It is also perhaps a bit of a stretch to argue that old people with poor English will not have a grasp of the gravity of what is a global situation.
Why do people make excuses for ethnic minorities not taking the vaccine, but condemn others? There does seem to be some kind of racism in there. I think it would be better to have some understanding of all of these groups.
People can counter anti-vaxxers’ views without vilifying them. It’s much more adult and much more effective.
My decision to have the vaccine was swung partly by the arguments put forward by the kinder and more balanced members of this forum. Not the ones frothing at the mouth.
Crispo – unfortunatly no she does not in any way. there is no evidence and no sound argument for putting children at risk by not vaccinating them.
She does for herself. She has comorbidities which change the balance of risk. As may many of the protestors, which is why we shouldn’t be so ready to judge.
I just got back from walking the dog, I haven't walked at our local spot for ages because it is was too much of a hot spot during the lockdowns proper and I got in the habit of popping her in the car for 10 minutes so I could get to the army lands where we could walk for miles away from anyone. (Crikey we had some arguments on here about whether that was stay local or not!!)
The car park is trashed, there are 'White Rose' stickers all over the info boards and trees at the entrance proclaiming 'this sticker is removable, unlike mRNA vaccines' and the like. And spray and marker pen graffiti all over too, 'smash the government', 'Baaaa!' and the like.
What a ****ing disgrace. Whether you believe in the cause or not to desecrate a beauty spot in support is beyond me.
She does for herself. She has comorbidities which change the balance of risk. As may many of the protestors, which is why we shouldn’t be so ready to judge
I assume you're not willing to name the comorbidties ?
(there's not much that vaccines can cause that COVID can't also do - but worse). I'd suggest she ought to talk this over with a well-informed mainstream scientist/doctor
Oh dear sheeple
I’d suggest she ought to talk this over with a well-informed mainstream scientist/doctor
+1
because it is was too much of a hot spot during the lockdowns proper
There’s a whole book to be written from that one depressingly true sentence. Imagine how the anti-maskers and antivaxx protesters would have reacted had Johnson & Co done a responsible job and called an actual proper enforced lockdown early 2020
Oh dear sheeple
Persuasive.
@morecashthandash for the record I agreed with your post earlier but the rest of my post was deemed inflammatory and removed.
(there’s not much that vaccines can cause that COVID can’t also do – but worse). I’d suggest she ought to talk this over with a well-informed mainstream scientist/doctor
I agree
@theotherjonv This will do nothing to placate you but do understand why you feel angry at this stickering. To be blunt, this issue has been gnawing away at me since Saturday along with the litter along the route. It is vandalism, pure and simple. A single sticker I can ignore but when they are being plastered over anything and everything including red buses with hundreds, if not thousands, of the darn things it becomes an eyesore.
My intention is to contact the various organisors that were involved with the rally to make a complaint. If anyone else has noticed this in their local area, obviously including yourself here, then you need to make a complaint. Once I've established contact details I will be happy to pass this on to anyone, simply send a PM.
I’m not anti-vaxx, my kids have been vaxxed but I believe that each one should be considered on its merits. As an example, I’ve refused the flu vaxx and that is my personal choice and right to do so. I would say the vast majority of those refusing the Covid vaxx are similar to me and not at all “anti-vaxx”. Please realise there is a difference.
...
What the public aren’t realising is that our freedoms are being curtailed by bills being sneaked through. We must not lose the democratic right to peaceful protest, it is our human right. The Government are getting a very easy ride and our MPs are doing naff all to challenge them. There is no opposition
The problem here is that you've conflated two entirely separate concerns. Maybe the 'rally' has done so too, I don't know.
On the second, I couldn't agree more. The people in power are mostly useless self-serving shitbags, and the 'opposition' recognised a poisoned chalice when they first saw it five years ago and have been keeping their heads down ever since.
Legislation like the Investigatory Powers Bill troubles me greatly and coupled with the very obvious notion that no-one in the house has the faintest of scoobies about technology terrifies me. Are our liberties being eroded, without doubt, and I'd champion anyone who chose to campaign or protest that.
But.
No-one is forcing anyone to have vaccines. There are many who cannot have them, even. The suggestion that this is something which is even remotely likely to happen in the future belongs on a Farage poster, it is somewhere between a straw man and and outright lie.
Being told to temporarily take extra precautions during a global pandemic is not an assault on our freedoms. People have lost their livelihoods and that's devastating; people haven't been able to go to the pub and that's irritating; but the cold hard fact, the uncomfortable truth if you like, is those complaining aren't instead dead.
We have masks, we have hand sanitiser, we have soap, all in abundance now. And we should be bloody grateful for this because without it we would 100% still be in lockdown and likely planet-wide. Being asked to clean your hands and not sneeze on people is not a removal of our liberties, it is a minor inconvenience. Screaming "I can't breathe!" when asked to wear a mask is, with a very few rare exceptions, firmly into the Grow The **** Up bucket. We've all had over a year to work out how masks work, parents have potty-trained toddlers in less time. I wore masks loads wen I was a child, they were the faces of Spider-Man cut out of the back of cereal boxes and I neither panicked nor suffocated to death.
In lumping these 'issues' together your first argument badly undermined your argument against the second. And if you're standing in a packed crowd with a hundred anti-vaxxers and various conspiracy theory nutjobs none of whom are wearing masks in protest then you've ensured that absolutely no-one else is going to take that cause seriously at all no matter how noble your aims may be.
Being told to temporarily take extra precautions during a global pandemic is not an assault on our freedoms.
Highlight iof a well thought out and eloquent post.
If the real Cougar would come back to the forum, that would be great
You're all bastards and I hate you.
Also, the 15-minute edit window is monkey spunk. I despise making typos.
There is no opposition, well it’s hardly surprising as the leader of the Labour Party is a member of the Trilateral Commission. For those who don’t know this organisation was set up by a member of the Rockefeller family. Nuff said.
Not enough said. Are you into New World Order stuff as well?
The really dangerous conspiracy theorists are the ones than can mix up reasonable points and concerns with stuff like that.
I think the relatively densely populated multi-generational households including older people with limited English skills/community engagement outside their ethnic ‘bubble’ etc is more of an issue, and they have more reason than most to mistrust the government/authority.
That’s quite a big assumption.
But it's a pretty fair analysis, these communities are not complaining loudly about the restrictions, they are largely ignoring them or are ignorant of the rules. The result is directly impacting the wider communities they live amongst and to be honest its more than a little annoying knowing your borough is top of the infection league tables when the local analysis shows the cases are very tightly geographically constrained.
chrispo
Free MemberCrispo – unfortunatly no she does not in any way. there is no evidence and no sound argument for putting children at risk by not vaccinating them.
She does for herself. She has comorbidities which change the balance of risk. As may many of the protestors, which is why we shouldn’t be so ready to judge.
(there’s not much that vaccines can cause that COVID can’t also do – but worse). I’d suggest she ought to talk this over with a well-informed mainstream scientist/doctor
I agree
You can't have it all ways - either she has sound scientific reasons not to vaccinate, as you stated (can you name one or two general ones, just for fun ?) or you agree that these aren't good reasons and she needs to become better informed
100% agree with that post cougar
Cougar
Full MemberAlso, the 15-minute edit window is monkey spunk. I despise making typos.
mod mods!
You’re all bastards and I hate you.
🤣🤣
Excellent post there Cougar. Heartily agree.
Oh,
it’s been noticed that not all of them speak English and this has also been the case in other European countries.
It's been the case in non-English countries that people don't speak English? Like, people in France are worryingly speaking French?
Have I misread / misunderstood this? Surely I have.
It’s nonsensical babble, of course you’ve misunderstood it.
Everyone speaks English. Some people simply don't hear you the first time. Or more annoyingly pretend not to understand.
