plus-one
Free MemberAye ok then 🙄
@plus-one - So what're the harmful aspects of Pfizer and Moderna vaccines?
My figures suggest a fatality rate of 0.000012% based on over 100 million doses of delivered Pfizer vaccine.
Its not just to them – they are an increased vector for infection and also create reservoir of infection plus they will take up resources in healthcare in short supply.
You sure about that. And arent maybe a wee bitty mixed up as to the benefits of being vaccinated.
Being vaccinated means the vaccinated would show less severe symptoms as those who arent vaccinated, but it makes no difference to passing on the infection.
As has been previously shown, people who are vaccinated can still catch the virus and by that can also pass it on.
If they pass it to another vaccinated individual, then thats got a lesser chance of making that vaccinated individual severally unwell, and if they pass it to an unvaccinated individual then that person has an increased risk of becoming seriously unwell and perhaps even dying from the infection.
But being vaccinated doesn't stop you from catching or passing it.
Sorry, who in the uk is being forced to take the vaccine? Answer… no one
Right. But if they dont they will be sacked, but thats not forcing them eh.
Have you just woken up 😕
My figures suggest a fatality rate of 0.000012% based on over 100 million doses of delivered Pfizer vaccine.
I agree that it's a low fatality rate but I can't believe it's that low.
Where did you get that number from? Why only Pfizer?
You sure about that
yes. Its how it works. Unvaccinated are more likely to get it, likely to have higher viral load which makes them more infectious and thus to be a reservoir of infection, more likely to have severe illness and require longer and more intensive treatment
yes. Its how it works. Unvaccinated are more likely to get it
Thats not what im saying. Obviously unvaccinated can catch it, What im saying is either vaccinated or unvaccinated can pass it on.
My figures suggest a fatality rate of 0.000012% based on over 100 million doses of delivered Pfizer vaccine.
"Many people who catch covid might be completely unaware they even have it"
Remember those words. Direct from the government and medical society.
1645 dead. 1645 families distraught.
But hey, that okdoky, you can add that on their remembrance card they were only part of the 0.000012%
I'm sure that will be comforting to their families.
The vaccine that offers up to a massive 12 weeks of protection! 😀
Efficacy wanes but not at the rate you're suggesting - Pfizer, from 88% to 74%, AZ from 77% to 67%. So no, not "the vzccine that offers up to a massive 12 weeks protection".
I’m no anti vaxxer
Oh rilly? 🙂
Pfizer will be gradually releasing their raw data over 55 years
The document you linked to says they're start taking requests a full 52 years sooner than you claim, other manufacturers sooner than that.
I read this morning that Von der Leyen has stated that the EU are trialling a personal digital wallet based on the vaccine passport technology….for the first time ever, i’m glad we’re not in the EU!
Why? After all, you're no anti-vaxxer, right? 😉
I mean, look at Austria…. you can’t socialise in a bar for example if you aren’t ‘vaccinated’, but you can work in that same bar all day long serving customers, you can handle food, you can talk to customers, you can handle money, the only thing you can’t do is sit on the other side of the bar after your shift and have someone bring you a drink! You can’t tell me that’s about health?
Not being able to go into a bar without being vaccinated? Founds pretty health-related to me.
As for the NHS saga….12 months ago they were labelled as ‘heroes’, ‘going above and beyond’ (quite rightly to by the way) and people were in the streets clapping them….now if they’ve not had the ‘vaccine’ (that only offers a few weeks potential protection!) they are getting sacked and it seems YOU LOT are happy with that?! This is mind blowing!
As discussed, it's not "a few weeks' protection, and what percentage of NHS staff are at risk? I don't know if any of those are unable to have the vaccine for medical reasons, and I hope that there's leeway for them to be found positions where they are less at risk, because they have no choice - but those that prefer to get their medical advice from Right Said Fred rather than, I dunno, science, they still have a choice.
Covid has become a cult and a religion to many. It’s so sad to see.
Irony! 🙂
For me, the biggest problem is that it's much, much quicker and easier to throw nonsense like this about than it is to counter it. Meanwhile, the anti-vax ultras are comparing doctors and nurses saving lives every ****ing day to the medical experimenters of the Third Reich and threatening them with their own 21st Century Nuremburg Trials.
Right. But if they dont they will be sacked, but thats not forcing them eh.
Correct, they can easily and quickly avoid losing their job. They can even still bang on about their anti-vax nonsense, if they choose, and they'll also have the added prestige of being martyrs to their cause. Right Said Fred, Piers Corbyn and Denise Welch will love them.
Just as an aside - if you are not working in the health care sector in England, what are the current opportunities an unvaxxed person is missing out in the UK?
Are there any airlines either enacting or proposing not to carry you?
Are there any venues you either can't visit now or you there are proposals you can't in the future?
Are there any shops in the UK refusing to serve unvaxxed customers?
What I'm driving at....are you lot ranting at each other purely about a hypothetical conundrum in the uk?
I'm not convinced the life of the average non vaccinated in the UK has too many opportunities limited by their choice.
But being vaccinated doesn’t stop you from catching or passing it.
The word "stop" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. Its one of the most common anti-vax tropes and its fundamentally flawed as an argument.
Vaccinations don't prevent all infections of Covid but they do stop some. If you are vaccinated and do still catch it they reduce your viral load and therefore reduce the chances of you passing it on.
There isn't unfortunately much data on infection protection for Omicron, but for previous strains the vaccines were very effective at preventing infection as well as dramatically reducing severe cases.
At a society level, if you are trying to control a pandemic then anything that slows down the spread of the disease is worth doing. Some of the thing we had to do early in the pandemic to control the disease, like lockdown had huge consequences. Now we have vaccines that provide enough protection and slow down infection enough that we can largely open back up and heavy, universal restriction are no longer required.
But everyone has to play their part.
I dont think its purely about the anti vaxx mob Pondo. I certainly wouldnt think some 80,000+ NHS staff follow that doctrine
Its about the word Mandate
<span class="ILfuVd"><span class="hgKElc">transitive verb. 1 : <b>to administer or assign</b> (something, such as a territory) under a mandate. 2 : to officially require (something) : make (something) mandatory : order a law mandating recycling also : to direct or require (someone) to do something a commission mandated to investigate corruption.</span></span>
.
Ergo: Forced.
Everything carries a risk. If you are at risk from a vaccine, then you are probably high up there on the likelihood of severe illness from Covid.
1600 dead from vaccine reaction - just how many millions are dead from the virus ?
More risk crossing the street, and TBH, riding our bikes.
if you are unvaccinated now there’s a good chance you have already been saved illness or even death by somoene else’s selfless actions. Now do you feel like a dick?
The rules of being a dick tend to block access to (even so simple) a revelation. Especially where humility is key.
@Daffy I suggest your figures are fantasy at best. It’s all Nhs quoted figures that pop up you need to dig deeper !!
But hey, that okdoky, you can add that on their remembrance card they were only part of the 0.000012%
Of course it's not, but given the fatality rate in the UK even with high vaccination rates is around 1.0% (over the total length of the pandemic) that 1000 bereaved families would be over 1000000 families without vaccination. Also consider that in Peru/Mexico with a largely un vaccinated population, the fatality to case rate is ~7%.
If everyone shirked their responsibility and decided for their own reasons to NOT be vaccinated, there would be a LOT more families missing a loved one, we'd also be suffering FAR more restrictions to our daily lives, the cost of living would be astronomical and millions would be unemployed.
0.000012% might be a high price to pay, but EVERY other alternative is much, MUCH, MUCH! higher.
I dont think its purely about the anti vaxx mob Pondo. I certainly wouldnt think some 80,000+ NHS staff follow that doctrine
Its about the word Mandate
Nor would I but without further information, who knows.
Do you have the option of declining something that's been mandated? I think you do, don't you?
Thats not what im saying. Obviously unvaccinated can catch it, What im saying is either vaccinated or unvaccinated can pass it on.
Being unvaccinated means you re more likely to catch it, its more likely to be serious and because yo have a higher viral load you are more likely to pass it onto others
Unvaccinated folk create a greater risk to others. thats how it works
@plus-one - my figures didn't come from the NHS they came from FULL Fact and other organisations setup to fact check stupid claims by Anti-Vaxers and Alternate Truthers.
The NHS figures are actually slightly worse as we (the UK) used a lot of the AZ vaccine in the early stages which has a higher fatality rate. The UK number is 0.0000187% dose/fatality, but is declining daily as more doses are delivered and the vaccine types are more refined/targeted.
1645 dead. 1645 families distraught.
Died following the vaccine or from the vaccine?
Some people are arses.
This thinking applies to both sides of the vaccine "debate". The level of ignorance of the scientific fact on the anti-vax side is staggering (akin to Flat Earthers) but equally the intolerance of some on the other side is equally daft. Maybe, if everyone engaged and listened more openly and actually listened we'd hear what the other is saying.
Has to be said I am firmly in the pro side but we need to engage and understand or we we risk pushing people further into their rabbit hole.
Perhaps requiring vaccination proof before use of social media might solve the matter....😉🤠🎣
@Drac - Died from complications specifically related to having been injected with one of the vaccines.
1645 isn't quite my number but it's close enough.
Have the jab or not, but don’t come bloody moaning when you catch it and are ill, die or get long covid.
Well I don't entirely disagree.....but...as a climber who undertakes a really bloody selfish pursuit that can reasonably easily end up with me splattered on the rocks below, I'm bloody glad there are folk out there who are willing to come and airlift me out and hopefully put me back together again and this is without special insurances (pretty sure climbing would be uninsurable) to cover this human effort and expense. I suppose that many of us indulge in some activities that might be considered hugely selfish and irresponsible that can lead to other people being extremely inconvenienced, hurt or even psychologically damaged as a result of our "selfish" decisions.... Maybe not entirely the same as refusing to be vaccinated but still worth considering before we pass too much judgement on others.
Died from complications specifically related to having been injected with one of the vaccines.
Related to or caused by?
1645 isn’t quite my number but it’s close enough.
Where are these figures?
After receiving the first dose. The actual gov burb states 'possibly' .
the cost of living would be astronomical and millions would be unemployed.
The cost of living is astronomical, and millions are unemployed 😆
But if they dont they will be sacked, but thats not forcing them eh
No… forcing someone gives someone no choice
They have a choice, it’s not a choice they may like but it’s still very much a choice
Let's just get one thing straight here - I'm generally not FOR enforced vaccination (or anything else deemed to be of societal benefit), believing everyone should be able to have access to and read the FACTS about an issue and make an enlightened choice which balances their needs with the needs of everyone else.
The problem is that there is a significant minority of people have been shown to be incapable of acting on anything other than their own (often very provincial) best interests. Environmentalism, Education, Health and Social Care, Politics, etc - Many of these people need to be TOLD, SPECIFICALLY to DO or NOT do something before they will act in a way that doesn't just affect them.
The early phase of the pandemic showed this with people doing whatever they wanted unless laws/prohibitions were in place to prevent them and even then...
Similarly transport - We have a highway code that says that cyclists should be given as much room as another vehicle...That's now HAD to be SPECIFICALLY metricised to ENFORCE good social behavior.
Similarly Environmentalism - Homes MUST now have better EPC to be sold. Why wouldn't you want an efficient home, because it costs more or is inconvenient? Why wouldn't you want to pollute less with your car and so drive more efficiently, or drive a less polluting car - "because no one says I have to".
...but we ALL should do these things as it's to the betterment of ALL.
The cost of living is astronomical, and millions are unemployed 😆
You seem to be missing the point of comparison.
When we had no vaccination, no defence against Covid, everything had to be shutdown, GDP crashed, and only furlough prevented mass unemployment.
Do you think we can afford to go back to that? or would you willingly accept millions of deaths through no vaccination and no restrictions?
Those are the only alternatives...
I really don't understand why this is an issue.
20 years ago I worked in the waste industry. All front line staff had to have up to date tetanus and Hepatitis vaccinations. No jab, no job.
My cousin is a tour guide in Tunisia, her husband is a pilot. They need jabs for half a dozen things. No jabs, no job.
If you work where lead is processed you have to consent (by law - Control of lead at work regs) to regular blood tests. No syringe stuck in your arm every 6 months, no job.
People have a choice, those choices have consequences.
None of this is new.
They have a choice, it’s not a choice they may like but it’s still very much a choice
Oh for Gods sake 🙄
Talking of the flu jab, mentioned above. I got mine last year for the 'first time'. Why, the autumn before that I was hit twice by flu in October and December. Apart from feeling shoot for a few weeks, I missed a few days work, and worse, over 4 weeks on the bike.
So if a jab can result in me not missing time on the bike, and feeling shoot, I'll get it. Unfortunately, where I work (University) it's a guarantee you pick something up.
I don't disagree with donks, and I've some life long injuries from my love of cycling, but overall, it keeps me much fitter than not doing it.
For me, the risk of long covid was enough of an incentive to get jabbed. There are folk on here still suffering. It's life changing.
. So, freedom fighters of this thread, I really hope you are putting as much energy into fighting the Police Bill, the Immigration bill, and the boundary changes as you are into protesting that you can’t go to a nightclub.
A very valid point for those waving the freedom banner.
Tragically, someone on here lost his partner to vaccine complications (and I think the UK number of those is less than 20 fwiw).
He stills wants people to get jabbed and boosted though. Because he understands the concept of the greater good.
Personally I'm vaccinated, my wife has an autoimmune condition and is also vaccinated - she had complications with her initial Az vaccine that were preventable and political imo. She's had no problems with Phzier.
Im also pro NHS staff being vaccinated - my view is that if you work for the NHS, in any capacity you also need to buy into the medical science. However I'm anti companies removing sick pay from unvaccinated as I see it as a slippery slope towards removal of sick pay for.other aliments that could be considered self inflicted.
However I’m anti companies removing sick pay from unvaccinated as I see it as a slippery slope towards removal of sick pay for.other aliments that could be considered self inflicted.
It's for those that have to self-isolate, not the sick or those with ailments. Schools around here have been doing this for ages now... school staff refusing to be vaccinated, but testing positive, are sent home and put on statutory sick pay, rather than full pay. I can see more and more employers doing the same.
I can see more and more employers doing the same.
So can I, which is my issue - give it 10yrs and it could be ssp for lung cancer if you've ever smoked..... Profits before people. I've no issues with a government trying to do what is best for it's population, it's the corporate side I find more worrying.
However I’m anti companies removing sick pay from unvaccinated as I see it as a slippery slope towards removal of sick pay for.other aliments that could be considered self inflicted.
It’s for those isolating due to close contact with an positive case. If you’re vaccinated you can come to work, if you’re not you have to isolate for 10 days. They’re not sick so it’s nothing like someone with lung cancer.
As I said, it's about self isolation rules, not illness.
It’s for those that have to self-isolate, not the sick or those with ailments.
Can't see most small private firms....or some large firms paying sick pay to people vaxed or not in the near future. Pretty sure that allot of builders etc with lads off with a positive test are not paying them to sit at home for 5 or 10 days regardless of their vaccination status. It seems clear that the isolation requirement will be removed soon enough. All the firm's I've worked for in the past (private engineering) didn't provide sick pay and that's why everyone came to work full of cold and mild flu and said things like "don't get too close to me I'm wretched" which was a grim situation but generally well accepted in most companies.
For what it’s worth, I think anyone self isolating should be supported. Just trying to counter this “slippery slope” nonsense that not supporting the unvaccinated when they are self isolating could lead to changes to how ill people are treated by their employers (which is already very variable).
Oh for Gods sake 🙄
Great comeback…🤔😂
However I’m anti companies removing sick pay from unvaccinated
Not to mention it just encourages folks to ignore isolation rules and head into work
Not to mention it just encourages folks to ignore isolation rules and head into work
Possibly there would be those who break the legal obligation to isolate, not sure that would be a huge different to now.
Pretty sure that allot of builders etc with lads off with a positive test are not paying them to sit at home for 5 or 10 days regardless of their vaccination status.
Yup that’s true some employers have not paid wages for those isolating from day one. They’ve no obligation to, just like they don’t for any sickness.
Great comeback…🤔😂
I'm not playing with you anymore 😡
The juggernaut that’s coming (particularly in the US) is health insurance premium increases for people that are unvaccinated.
Also, Travel Insurance for Brits.
It’s for those isolating due to close contact with an positive case. If you’re vaccinated you can come to work, if you’re not you have to isolate for 10 days
Not apparently where my wife works...NHS profound and multiple learning difficulties unit...their HR policy apparently over rides the government recommendations and they are still having to isolate...for the full 10 days as well. There are a couple of members of staff who have had months off through the isolation requirements, lots of kids or big families etc being the reasons. They are on full pay however so not an issue financially to the staff member but costing the trust a fortune.
They are on full pay however so not an issue financially to the staff member but costing the trust a fortune.
Yeah NHS trusts are still getting staff to isolate if they live with an infected person but they’re paying both as it’s their policy.
Ours is you test day 6 and day 7 if they’re both negative you return to work and test daily.
