Good for you. That will be handy, a bit like a medical engineer ?.
Though i was addressing Kerley
So whats your standpoint on freedom of choice ?. Are you for ?,against? a bit on the fence. Medical qualifications aside.
Which is what this thread is about. Not whether the vaccine is good or bad or dangerous or rushed through or a hundred other reasons, both real or imaginary.
Do you think people should be forced to take the vaccine and be penalized in some manner should they refuse ?.
Sorry whoever mentioned timing earlier was correct. Ever since vaccines have been available, specialist cardiac anaesthetists have only been able to work if they are vaccinated. So probably about a year I guess.
My point is freedom of choice.
You have that. Just like I have the freedom to not take my driving test.
As a result of those choices, there are things those choices effects. For the unvaccinated, it’s the ability to socialise wherever they like, for me, I can’t drive a car on the highway, arguably limiting my freedom. There are some jobs I cannot apply for because I don’t have a drivers licence, and going a long distance is a pain in the arse/more expensive, but there we are.
I really don’t care enough about the plight of vaccine refusers to bother reasoning it through..Windsor Davies rather neatly summed up my view: oh dear, how sad, never mind.
“The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible reductions. In this way, the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed. -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf”
😉
satire is dead old chap
Less satire, more of a wind up. Still keeps 'em off the streets...
So whats your standpoint on freedom of choice
You can choose not to get vaccinated, but that choice has consequences for others that you must accept and modify your behaviour.
...Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf...
"First they came for the antivaxxers* and I did not speak out because I figured they'd brought it on themselves." Spin, Singletrackworld
*Except they haven't come for the antivaxxers, people aren't being arrested for not getting it.
What's happening here is in no way analogous to Nazi Germany.
Calling troll Tom. Oh big blooming yawn. Non existent point. Freedoms of choice is non existent. Holy Crow, thats a good one.
I'm returning quote with quote. So tell me, which has more relevance in freedom of choice. Windsor Davis, or Adolf Hitler ?.
We can use Hitler and Fascism in this you know. Or any quote we choose.
people aren’t being arrested for not getting it.
What’s happening here is in no way analogous to Nazi Germany.
Certainly less with Windsor Davis, thats for sure.
But no of course not. No arrests , no standard issue kicking in the door.
But penalties none the less. Or don't you think there are any penalties, nobody seems to want to answer that in a definitive manner.
I will just say that I think linking vaccine status to sick-pay is a terrible idea – it will inevitably result in people coming to work when they are sick, instead of being at home and self isolating.
From what I’ve seen its not if you’re sick with covid. Its if you’re isolating due to close contact, you’re not sick.
Can I just point out that there is in effect a vaccine passport in existence in Scotland.
Yeah there was/is in England but just like Scotland you didn’t need to be vaccinated.
Are you saying that no individuals action/inaction should carry a penalty (imagined or otherwise) from society, cuz fascism?
Would certainly take a lot of weight off the prison service.
Edit: forget it. Can’t get quote to work!
I think its possibly both Drac. Omicron has been shown to be less symptomatic that Delta or the original strain, so people feeling slightly off key might go in.
The driving license analogy is pretty good and you keep ignoring it.
Ignoring it ?. I hadn't realized it was an actual question directed at me alone and expecting of an answer.
Reductio ad adsurdum.
From what I’ve seen its not if you’re sick with covid. Its if you’re isolating due to close contact, you’re not sick.
This.
The front line techs at my work have no incentive to be careful or get the vaccine. If they have to isolate they get full pay and nothing on their absence record. It’s amazing how many people were off during the summer and then again around Christmas time. And some people have had multiple weeks off. Either they are lying or have so little regard about Covid that I really don’t want them working for us or being near me at all.
Unfortunately it’s also heavily unionised so if they try to change the sick pay rules I can imagine a huge furore. But it has to change for people to change their behaviour.
I think its possibly both Drac. Omicron has been shown to be less symptomatic that Delta or the original strain, so people feeling slightly off key might go in
Yes they might but that’s vaccinated or not.
Not sure if this is correct or not but I thought that the Vax was only effective for a limited time?? Therefore people will need the boosters once or twice a year to stay protected???
Anyway I had my booster just before Christmas and was talking with quite a few people about this and it seems that many if not most who were double vaxed are not intending to have a booster? And I thought I read that authorities are not planning to keep the booster program going for much longer? So In a while all double jabbed people will be outside the given lifespan of the protection.
But penalties none the less. Or don’t you think there are any penalties, nobody seems to want to answer that in a definitive manner.
You've not read anything that's been written here have you?
We've all said there are consequences/penalties. We just think that they are proportionate and balanced. You appear not to.
All of our "freedoms" have limits. Ever since King John started cancelling chunks of the Magna Carta right after he signed it. Get over it.
we still live in a free society where telling someone else what they can and can’t do with their body is a moral travesty that should be resisted at all costs.
We already tell people this. You can't be naked in public...It's your body, but others have to suffer the consequences of what you choose to do with it. As such, certain things are limited by laws and rules for the protection of society. A vaccine, demonstrated to be harmless to all and to the benefit of most is no more a burden than having to wear clothes when in public.
So In a while all double jabbed people will be outside the given lifespan of the protection.
Yeah but tbh it’ll probably end up as a yearly flu/cov combo jab later on,covids unlikely to just suddenly disappear like a bad movie plot.
As has already been said, you have freedom of choice.
This isn't the same as 'I can do whatever I want'.
Once you understand that idea, we'll have a chance.
We just think that they are proportionate and balanced. You appear not to.
For starters I like your use of the royal 'we'
But yes i have read everything and i disagree, because the basics stand. Do this or be penalized.
Personal choice isnt a factor as you see it and for whatever reason those who dont want to be vaccinated must be forced to
So why arent you dragging them out their homes by the hair and forcefully sticking a needle in their arm. Its about the only thing that 'you' haven't suggested.
Very very simple. I believe in freedom of choice and you clearly dont.
Thats fine. and because i believe in freedom of choice you are perfectly allowed in my mind to hold such an opinion, even if i disagree with it. But again you feel you should brow beat me into submission because i disagree with your standpoint.
“The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible reductions. In this way, the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed. -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf”
Not in Mein Kampf, not Hitler. Which just goes to show what utter claptrap you guys are being sucked into.
Yeah but tbh it’ll probably end up as a yearly flu/cov combo jab later on,covids unlikely to just suddenly disappear like a bad movie plot.
But this was my point though....that from my own conversations with quite a few people from all sorts of backgrounds it appeared that many were not planning on getting the booster..and anyway I thought the flu jab was only really offered to over 50,s. People weren't (to my knowledge) penalised for not getting a flu jab....were they??
from my own conversations with quite a few people from all sorts of backgrounds it appeared that many were not planning on getting the booste
Pretty much everyone I know who has been vaccinated had their booster.
anyway I thought the flu jab was only really offered to over 50,s
No, it’s open to many. Including school children.
Anyway this thread is getting too close to the other and the OP strangely hasn’t replied since posting.
Very very simple. I believe in freedom of choice and you clearly dont.
Do you think there'll be a number of times that you can be reminded that we have freedom of choice where it'll actually ****ing sink in?
Anyway I had my booster just before Christmas and was talking with quite a few people about this and it seems that many if not most who were double vaxed are not intending to have a booster?
The people you were talking to are clearly statistical outliers.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274
Go to any area of the UK you choose and look at the percentage double vaxxed and the percentage boosted. Yes, the boosted number is smaller than the double vaxxed number but it is very clear that the boosted number is the vast majority of the double vaxxed number. When you take away the the fact that the vaccine has been rolled down into children but they are still months away from the booster being possible (therefore not being able to appear on the boosted list and generating a gap between the two numbers) it really is a staggeringly good conversion rate from double to boosted.
So why arent you dragging them out their homes by the hair and forcefully sticking a needle in their arm. Its about the only thing that ‘you’ haven’t suggested.
That's quite a leap you've made in your head there. You might want to get it looked at.
Very very simple. I believe in freedom of choice and you clearly dont.
You don’t understand how freedom of choice works as part of wider society. Despite many peoples best efforts here
A vaccine, demonstrated to be harmless to all
Aye ok then 🙄
Mass vaccination as a plank of any public health policy is clearly a “public good” and yet at the same time relies on individuals agreeing to a medical procedure to which they ought to have a right of refusal.
that’s the contradiction at the heart of all these arguments.
For me, there is no individual without society.
Not in Mein Kampf, not Hitler. Which just goes to show what utter claptrap you guys are being sucked into.
You guys ?? which guys do you refer ?
Actually i was looking for a fascism quote and googled that, thats the first one that came up and appeared to fit.
thanks for pointing it out, i'd have missed it otherwise.
But im sure there's something else that fits just as well in the argument of freedom of choice as opposed people being forced to comply with something they profoundly disagree with.
Do you think there’ll be a number of times that you can be reminded that we have freedom of choice where it’ll actually **** sink in?
CHRIST IN A HANDCART. HOW ARE YOU SO UTTERLY DEVOID OF LOGIC. UNREAL.
So again.
This isnt about being made to wear a seatbelt. or having a car license. This is about being forced to take a drug that has been shown to have an adverse effect on some of the people taking it, without any inkling of whether they will be fine or not.
There have(According to UK gov figure) - 1645 directly attributed to having the covid vaccine.
Because of that, and yes im in agreement that number is very small compared to the number who didnt develop fatal symptoms, SOME PEOPLE ARE SCARED TO TAKE THE RISK.
Your standpoint is that we have freedom of choice, but those people should be made to take it. and if they dont they shall be financially penalized, but retain freedom of choice.
I believe in freedom of choice but that appears to be at odds with your understanding of what freedom of choice actually means.
But im sure there’s something else that fits just as well in the argument of freedom of choice as opposed people being forced to comply with something they profoundly disagree with.
Which, as has been stated numerous times before, they are not.
Besides, we still live in a free society
People keep coming out with this cold war slogan as an excuse to do whatever they want, but they really don't understand what it means.
All countries have restrictions on what you can and can't do. They are called laws. Sure, you might not like some of them, but tough. You are protected by them as well as limited. I am not allowed to drive down the motorway at 150mph, however much I'd like to, because it's a risk to others. This means that if I am driving around at the speed limit some other time I am hopefully protected against being hit by someone else doing 150mph.
Most people are perfectly happy with this concept. Vaccination is no different. You take the vaccine to help protect everyone. In fact, if you are unvaccinated now there's a good chance you have already been saved illness or even death by somoene else's selfless actions. Now do you feel like a dick?
people being forced to comply with something they profoundly disagree with.
Not sure how 'profound' the anti-vax stance can actually be tbh.
Personally, as a fully vaccinated person (and therefore protected against covid as I can possibly be) I'd like all those who think forcing and coercing people to get vaccines is an acceptable action to get in the sea and drown.
Voluntarily, of course, I won't coerce you, but please do.
Like brexiteers and racism, the desire to kick poor deluded anti-vaxxers (even though you, like me, are as safe as can be post-vaccination) goes hand in hand with being a facist little a-hole in lots of areas of your life.
So the best solution, completely voluntarily of course - I wouldn't dream of coercing you - would be if you all walked, en masse, off the end of a pier.
🙂
It can be "profound" without being sensible
Most of this stuff is about balance - the cost / benefit ratio ( cost not just financial) and risk / reward. For example like all vaccines it has side effects. However like all vaccines it saves lives.
its about where you personally draw the line. I am quite content to have restrictions on unvaccinated and public spaces and private events. Choose not to have a vaccine and you choose not to be able to go to nightclubs and football matches. seems proportionate and reasonable to me
i am much more troubled about making it a condition of employment on both a pragmatic and moral level. Others have a different view
To think this on either side is a simple black / white question is daft. Its nuanced and multifactorial and it depends on how you personally view the different factors involved and the weight you apply to them
So now C-19 is endemic and is likely to be part of the group of annual winter respiratory virus that kill a few thousand most years, are we going to treat it differently?
Should we be testing when we get a cold in case it's C-19?
Are you going to get regular boosters?
What if you have to pay for them? Didn't Superdrug start selling the flu jab a few years ago?
All genuine questions, I am interested in opinions on what we do in the medium to long term?
Just to add to my post above: don't get me wrong - I'd love to kick anti-vaxxers. I hate stupid, deluded and poorly-educated people as much as the next man.
But then I remember that we're all stupid and deluded in some ways, that I'm as safe as can be because I've had the vaccine - so the risk is actually to *them* - and that actually kicking these people makes me a little hitler, using a form of violence (for plunging someone into jobless poverty because you don't like their decision is indeed an act of violence - and a cowardly one because they can't punch you back) because you don't like someone else's decision about what they want to allow into their own body.
Even though you're as safe as can be...
This is a troll right?
Personal freedom versus rules is not exactly a heavy mental lift.
I’d like all those who think forcing and coercing people to get vaccines is an acceptable action to get in the sea and drown.
I don't really care, we are at the stage where enough people have done the right thing that the stubborn minority matter less and less. So don't get vaxxed, that's your choice just STFU about it and accept the consequences.
I find it interesting that many of the people claiming that putting some conditions on what un- vaxxed people can do is fascist are apparently absolutely fine with actual fascism. So, freedom fighters of this thread, I really hope you are putting as much energy into fighting the Police Bill, the Immigration bill, and the boundary changes as you are into protesting that you can't go to a nightclub.
I hate stupid, deluded and poorly-educated people as much as the next man.
Bit harsh that mind.
Your standpoint is that we have freedom of choice, but those people should be made to take it. and if they dont they shall be financially penalized, but retain freedom of choice.
Well ok, clearly we haven't reached comprehension point just yet. Let's try again - no-one is being made to take it.
so the risk is actually to *them*
Its not just to them - they are an increased vector for infection and also create reservoir of infection plus they will take up resources in healthcare in short supply. Unvaccinated people create risk for all which is why restrictions on them are proportionate
The real debate is how far should those restrictions go and what can be done to mitigate the secondary effects of those restrictions
But im sure there’s something else that fits just as well in the argument of freedom of choice as opposed people being forced to comply with something they profoundly disagree with.
I'm sure there is another quote. Isn't the point that you shouldn't just buy the first thing that turns up on a Google search though?
I don't agree with mandated vaccines. I do subscribe to the view that there are consequences for actions and inactions. There is choice. There is freedom.
I would like to know why people "profoundly disagree" with vaccination, I suspect it's just their opinion, to which they are entitled, and they have done their own research (first hit on google that matches my thought) etc etc. I have heard some doozies; microchips, New World Order, mind control, movement tracking, the great reset, untested vaccines, messes with DNA, 100,000s dying from vaccine but not being reported, big tech/big government/big pharma and now erosion of freedom and the rise of the Fourth Reich... Always getting a little less fanciful, always getting a little more believable, where more and more seemingly normal people get sucked in.
All opinions, but very harmful, especially to the vulnerable and desperate.
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” - Harlan Ellison.
You can’t tell me that’s about health?
What is it about?
Have the jab or not, but don't come bloody moaning when you catch it and are ill, die or get long covid.
I know two mates who nearly died, one caught it before the vaccine, the other 'couldn't be bothered as he was young and fit' - caught it and ended up in ICU, off work for months and still get's out of breath. My other mate is still on oxygen therapy after 16 months and it's ruined his life.
Working front line, you are more likely to catch it. I got the jabs, not for me, but for others - reduced the risk for vulnerable family members. One might as well be in prison, locked down in a Nursing Home for the last two years.
This is about being forced to take a drug that has been shown to have an adverse effect on some of the people taking it,
Sorry, who in the uk is being forced to take the vaccine? Answer… no one
