Mandating vaccines as a condition of working in healthcare has a number of undesirable secondary effects the most serious
1) it alters the whole legal basis for consent as its a fundamental principle that it is done without coercion. Bolam is the legal case to look up that defines this
2) 70 000 staff will be lost from the front line. this will nearly double the vacancies in NHS england. Care home are already mandated and it has led to a large increase in vacancies as people have left. There is no doubt this will have a significant effect on staff in some areas. we are now less than two weeks from the dealine
All of the royal colleges are against it, many employers, all the unions
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/23/unvaccinated-nhs-staff-in-england-urged-to-have-covid-jab-before-deadline
And away we go.
If 80,000 nhs workers dont want the vaccine they should be sacked,
Point of note here, that 80,000 unvaccinated refers to the HNS as a whole. The ones being made to have the jab as part of their job are frontline staff, so that figure is grossly exaggerated.
Don't worry Drac - one post on this. I know its contentious and has resulted in threads being closed
So 80,000 health workers in England alone are unvaccinated. The very same workers who are up close and personal with people suffering/dying with all manner of ailments/diseases.
The fact they refuse the vaccine speaks volumes !!
A better analogy with your wallet might be, put your card behind the bar or you can’t open a tab.
Which, of course, is totally comparable to the rise of the Third Reich.
Neat analogy, except now one’s ‘card’ is only valid if it’s forcibly branded/tattooed into your actual flesh. Now who did stuff like that? Etc…
Source: The Devil’s council of advocates.
Speaks volumes of what?
But as earlier mentioned, these are not all frontline workers so no they are not all in contact with sick people.
Yes fair enough Cougar. Well put. But the basic of basics of premise here is freedom of choice is it not.
Some are saying the freedom of choice in mtbing is you might get hurt(Admittedly you then can need to involve others, possibly putting them at some sort of risk)
So while freedom of choice is accepting to exist in going off cycling or having a drink, risking getting plastered and falling on your head, those same voices are advocating the not wishing to be vaccinated is not a freedom of choice. Clearly it is.
for the record I am pro vaccine. Couldn't wait till i got mine and no complaints as to which.
But freedom to choose is as important a subject as issues can get, and even though it might cause others problems, it must still be strictly adhered to. Wars were fought over these freedoms, and i dont think we should just cast them aside.
70 000 staff will be lost from the front line
a) As above, I believe this to be way out (a quick google would suggest closer to about 20-25k)
b) You're assuming that the bulk of those refusing will continue to do so
c) What use will they be if rather than at being work in a high-risk environment without the required PPE (because let's not forget, antivaxers love to crow about how vaccines don't stop you from catching the virus) when they're dead, or when they're in ICU tying up even more NHS resources?
And away we go.
Drac, is there anything here that hasn't been discussed, and answered, many times over in the main thread? Certainly most of what I've typed here I've already typed once.
Neat analogy, except now one’s ‘card’ is only valid if it’s forcibly branded/tattooed into your actual flesh.
Alright.
To drink in my pub, you have you have to have a customer ID barcode tattooed on your wrist. No tattoo, no drinks, other pubs are available, ****ity-bye.
Choice, see?
Now who did stuff like that? Etc…
Book of Revelations, I think.
(And yes, it's a bloody silly analogy, but you started it 😁)
Drac, is there anything here that hasn’t been discussed, and answered, many times over in the main thread? Certainly most of what I’ve typed here I’ve already typed once.
It’s rapidly heading that way.
The figure for unvaccinated staff is around 80k or so but it’s not clear how many exempt, how many aren’t frontline. All were seeing is dramatics like one a friend shared from GBNews. Nurse who has worked in the NHS for 48 years faces being sacked for refusing the vaccine. Yeah as 66/67 year old won’t retire on full pension.
The ones being made to have the jab as part of their job are frontline staff
Minor point of order if I may?
It's not just 'front line' staff in the sense of doctors, nurses etc. I work in NHS IT, looking after general hardware, networks etc for GP practices, and 'vaccination as a condition of deployment' is likely to affect my role* and my team in the not too distant future. The definition we've been advised is that "anyone carrying out work on any premises inspected and regulated by the CQC" could be expected to be vaccinated (or medically exempt) to be allowed on site, so that includes me and our engineer team, including contractors that we take on.
(* I'm vaccinated so it's not an issue for me.)
To
drinkwork in my pub, you have tohave a customer ID barcode tattooed on your wristhave pig DNA injected into the fleshy part of your ear. Nogammon in lobehamoglobin, no job, scarce other pub jobs are available, ****ity-bye.
The definition we’ve been advised is that “anyone carrying out work on any premises inspected and regulated by the CQC” could be expected to be vaccinated
Most odd as my wife works in admin and they’ve been told they don’t need to, neither do our admin, stores, control, HQ staff or anyone else without face to face contact.
Does the individual have face-to- face contact with patients or service users in their role?
This includes entering areas which are utilised for the provision of a CQC-regulated activity which may result in incidental face to face contact with patients or service users
That might be why in your case.
So while freedom of choice is accepting to exist in going off cycling or having a drink
What about doing both of those things? I want to go to the pub and drop eight pints of Stella, then drive home. Do I have freedom of choice here? WHY ARE YOU PUNISHING ME?!
For what it's worth, I think sacking is an extreme measure if there are other options such as relocation. I don't doubt that the NHS is crying out for non-frontline staff elsewhere.
Ultimately though, does the NHS's "do no harm" / duty of care not extend to its own staff? As the ant-vaxers love to tell us, being vaccinated doesn't stop you from spreading it. Imagine the headlines if high-risk (unvaccinated) frontline staff working in high-risk (a bloody hospital full of sick people) areas started dropping like flies. Questions will surely be asked, "well, why were they allowed to be there in the first place?"
Most odd as my wife works in admin and they’ve been told they don’t need to, neither do our admin, stores, control, HQ staff or anyone else without face to face contact.
Fair enough - perhaps the guidance is different between trusts/organisations. I only know what we've been told within our CCG, and how it impacts our team.
At the other end of NHS craziness my brother in law is a cardiac anaesthetist and 2 of his colleagues have been refusing vaccination all along, with the result that they cannot do their jobs. They have been sat at home getting full pay for nearly 2 years, all the whole compromising the care of critical cardiac patients for the sake of their illogical ideological stance.
So,
How do you all feel that once you scan your pass to get into the pub / restaurant / stadium, into the safe zone that... Most of the people in the kitchen / behind the scenes are unlikely to have taken it. Many have zero fear of losing their job. Likely the same applies to contract cleaners, caterers and delivery people at your hospital.
Where is your evidence that most staff in pubs and restaurants are not vaccinated? That sounds like a made-up stat.
How do you all feel that once you scan your pass to get into the pub / restaurant / stadium, into the safe zone that… Most of the people in the kitchen / behind the scenes are unlikely to have taken it.
You mean that thing you don’t need to do? Yeah I’m fine with not needing to do it but fortunately I have a pass so don’t need a test.
Minor point of order if I may?
Thank you for the info. I was struggling to find accurate definitions.
To work in my pub, you have you have pig DNA injected into your person. No hamoglobin, no job, few other pub jobs are available
Then I'd try to find out all I could about whether scary-sounding words were actually harmful and then analyse that risk against having to retrain as a plumber.
They have been sat at home getting full pay for nearly 2 years
For refusing the vaccine? Has the vaccine been out for that long?
To work in my pub, you have you have pig DNA injected into your person. No hamoglobin, no job, few other pub jobs are available
We can save your life and give you a normal life by giving pig’s heart valves or you can take the chance and live a debilitating life.
You do in many EU countries outside of the UK.
Note, that in most EU countries you only need this to enter as a customer, not to work behind the scenes.
So not the UK.
Cool! Thanks for playing.
The post#:batshit ratio on this thread is fantastically high! Some of this stuff is amazing - I think we hit Godwin halfway down the first page, and comparisons with the Holocaust soon after.
I will just say that I think linking vaccine status to sick-pay is a terrible idea - it will inevitably result in people coming to work when they are sick, instead of being at home and self isolating. I think somebody gave a good example of this somewhere in the mess of nonsense being posted above.
The juggernaut that's coming (particularly in the US) is health insurance premium increases for people that are unvaccinated. ICU is expensive - particularly over there.... that money has got to come from somewhere. "discrimination" based on vaccine status is here to stay - the only people I have any sympathy for are those who are medically unable to have it.
I'd just sat down for tea and biscuits and thought I'd throw in my comment for entertainment. I've now finished both so will promptly leave back to my stance on most things as lonely centrist 🙂
Any ancillary threads always end up at the same arguments discussed on the main thread ad infinitum imo.
That sounds like a made-up stat.
Hey. This thread is surviving on made up stats. Leave them alone.
Of the 80,000 unvaccinated nhs workers, the unproven number being banded about a mere 25,000 might be frontline staff, the rest clearly dont do an important job, so we can sling them onto the unemployment line and the nhs will function as normal.
Drac, is there anything here that hasn’t been discussed, and answered, many times over in the main thread? Certainly most of what I’ve typed here I’ve already typed once.
Righto. No more What gloves, what shocks, what winter woollies for you. You've said your piece on multiple threads concerning those subjects so we dont need to revisit them eh ? 😕
Or it is the argument winner. Not going the way you want, too many in disagreement so lets just close the thread and bury out combined heads in the big bucket of sand.
The post#:batshit ratio on this thread is fantastically high! Some of this stuff is amazing – I think we hit Godwin halfway down the first page, and comparisons with the Holocaust soon after.
I forgot to leave the light on again? 😳
*clik*
satire is dead old chap...... some people are actually making the same argument as you were satirizing
satire is dead old chap
Preach. And for so long now that however it may smell funny, it’s not actually funny. 😢
By the name of Our Lady Cassidy Boon
By the light of a ‘literally hovering’ moon
By the twittering sounds of Shatner’s Bassoon,
I declare that
#satireisdead
Fully vaxxxed (3x) did you see what i did there..
Anyway i am not here to advise on peoples life choices nor am i here to take on the implications of those choices.
Worked example - next time i need a hospital bed because some **** has run me over and you the "unvaxed" are sat in it due to Covid - get the **** out and change the sheets before you you irresponsible ****.
next time i need a hospital bed because some * has
run me overbeen run over and you the “cyclist” are sat in it due to cycling in traffic – get the * out and change the sheets before you you irresponsible ****.
stfy
/satire
the unproven number being banded about a mere 25,000 might be frontline staff, the rest clearly dont do an important job
They do a less at-risk job. You'd suspend a builder who wouldn't wear a hard-hat, an accountant generally not so much.
No more What gloves, what shocks, what winter woollies for you.
Hot topics often generate multiple concurrent threads. There are several reasons why duplicate threads get closed.
lets just close the thread and bury out combined heads in the big bucket of sand.
lets just close the thread and discuss it on the one where we've already been discussing it for months.
Actually, I think I'd agree with that. Clearly this is an emotive subject for many, and as said its going around and around. Nobody is really going to change anyone's mind on this, so maybe you're right and we should just forget the whole thing.
.
I'll accept that i'm right and you're wrong, and you can accept that you're right and i'm wrong and we can all agree that we disagree.
maybe you’re right and we should just forget the whole thing.
That's not what I said.
Are you OK? You're not usually this random.
I'm fine, thanks for asking.
But don't worry, I'll be back on some other thread shouting the odds.
oh, we don't live in a free society.
if you actively choose not to get vaccinated, you don't have to. its as simple as that. you may have limited choices because of this choice, but you should be aware of this.
you don't get to huff viral particles over other people, because they choose not to let you do it.
I don't see what the problem is.
I’ll accept that i’m right and you’re wrong, and you can accept that you’re right and i’m wrong and we can all agree that we disagree.
You seem to be VERY out numbered on this though which should be telling you something.
So many terrible analogies on this thread.
I like a moral dilemma but in this instance I really don't care enough about the plight of vaccine refusers to bother reasoning it through. Windsor Davies rather neatly summed up my view: oh dear, how sad, never mind.
You seem to be VERY out numbered on this though which should be telling you something.
Sorry, but how so ?
My point is freedom of choice. Or are you saying you don't believe in such a notion.
.
I see anti vaccination protest consisting of tens of thousands of people. I read about 80,000 unvaccinated nhs staff, of varying positions, from porters and support staff through to consultants.
I have stated im pro vaccine, but my point before and of now is freedom of choice.
There are many countries and regimes around the world where there is no freedom of choice. Are you saying you would prefer to side with them.
Do you even have a view of your own, or for that matter any convictions that clash with those of others ?.
Or are you the type that bows and scrapes, Yes Sir, No Sir, Three bags full Sir. I'll just go with the masses thanks, just tell me what to believe and I'll sign up a ready and willing participant.
Is this your position Kerley ?.
Can I just point out that there is in effect a vaccine passport in existence in Scotland. AS Sturgeon pointed out its England that is the outlier
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58422607
are you the type that bows and scrapes, Yes Sir, No Sir, Three bags full Sir. I’ll just go with the masses thanks, just tell me what to believe and I’ll sign up a ready and willing participant.
Im a professor of medical Biotechnology. I like science, thanks.
