I included the DM because i wanted you to show issue with that source ,while the rest are from medical forums.
Such as the Telegraph?
you chose to query them none the less pushing the ball into my court.
Sure. Because I didn't know either way and couldn't be arsed to try and reverse engineer / mindread what you might have been referring to. Probably a trivial google but so is fact-checking every single other spurious argument on the Internet and life's too short.
What were you expecting me to do when you posted the question ?.
What I was hoping you'd do is exactly what you did. What I was expecting, well, eh.
you’d vanished
Shocking I know, but I occasionally have other things to do.
My dormant-forum-account-recently-reactivated-****er-o-meter is frankly going nuts.
Honestly, there's a lot of it going about at the moment.
@kelvin @cougar - the mask wearing when you're ill thing - on this very page in my response to TJ I said I think it's a good idea. Not just for covid - but also general hygine - and I actually thought that before covid. (Hospitals? No brainer!)
Remember when people used to laugh at tge Japanese for wearing masks? Well they had SARS. And it's to our disgrace that our governments didn't learn from THEIR experience.
We're not far apart in our views. We'd act conscientiously. But unworriedly.
@kelvin - pubs have been normal in england I guess, but not in Wales. And I welcome that return to normality.
For the vast majority of us - we can and should stop worrying about it.
Honestly, there’s a lot of it going about at the moment.
Aye, I haven't seen sealioning on this scale since I went to Colchester Zoo in 1981.
For the uninitiated:
For the vast majority of us – we can and should stop worrying about it.
For ourselves, yeah? But you know that societal behaviour is not just about what's good for you.
I know you’re ostensibly not anti-vax but that’s anti-vac tactics to a tee when you run out of logic to argue with.
Ooo, Ostensibly not anti vax. Well that settles it. Despite having all the jabs and happy for anything else, and saying people should take the vaccine as it considerably lessens the chances of developing serious complications, im apparently telling whoppers and in reality, as you see it i add, am really an anti vaxxer in disguise.
That must be a first in the history of the anti vaxx movement. To be pro vaxx, to happily accept all the jabs, to say to others to get the jabs and at the same time be anti vaxx.
Incredible deduction. You should write a book.
Oh no wait, the Brothers Grimm have already done the big book of fairytales.
COVID-19: Antisemitism 'on the rise' as anti-vaxxers blamed for helping to fuel hatred
Honestly, I am ing tired of this sort of shit. It's almost as though someone's stirred up a whole *tsnest.
I guess asking for opinions on his views is pointless..
I’m familiar with his views. And his views on ivermectin bear no relation to the principles of Clinical Pharmacology I practice daily. I’m also familiar with the history of mRNA. The review below is worth a read. Because that is the technology that has delivered the vaccines. It is long established and it’s time has come. Sadly it hasn’t worked out in oncology (yet).
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41578-021-00358-0
Declaimer: I used to work with one of the authors (Tal Zaks, ex Modena CMO), but I don’t work on mRNA.
We’re not far apart in our views. We’d act conscientiously. But unworriedly.
At that level, sure.
I'm not worried, for myself at any rate. I'm double-jabbed and boosted as is my immediate family (both of them). I'm washing my hands, I carry a little bottle of hand sanitiser even though contact-transmission is largely negligible, I wear an FFP2 mask when outside unless I'm eating or drinking. Tending towards zero worries here, for the price of "minor inconvenience."
Ooo, Ostensibly not anti vax. Well that settles it. Despite having all the jabs and happy for anything else, and saying people should take the vaccine as it considerably lessens the chances of developing serious complications, im apparently telling whoppers and in reality, as you see it i add, am really an anti vaxxer in disguise.
Dyna-ti -
- is pro-vax, double-vaccinated and boosted
- vigorously and repeatedly presses anti-vax arguments
What do you think I should think?
That they are bored and playing games.
Ooo, Ostensibly not anti vax. Well that settles it. Despite having all the jabs and happy for anything else, and saying people should take the vaccine as it considerably lessens the chances of developing serious complications, im apparently telling whoppers and in reality, as you see it i add, am really an anti vaxxer in disguise.
You never answered my question before (I don't think, there's been a lot of bollocks been thrown around). Do you think that you shouting at anyone that will listen, that "forcing" (your, incorrect, word) people to get vaccinated is a trait of fascism, bathes the vaccine in a positive or negative light?
If you were unsure about something, would someone you know linking it to fascism encourage you to get it?
Or do you not really give a ****, and this is all just a bit of sport to you?
Repeatedly presses anti-vax arguments
Freedom of choice is an anti vaxx argument ?. So you believe freedom is anti vaxx. Thats the only one I've postulated throughout this entire thread.
So maybe you could agree that freedom is more important that even this pandemic, that has thus far killed 0.22% of the population.
But no.
I think you're worse than the anti vaxx brigade, you are them in reverse, and shut your ears to anything that differs from your own views on this matter.
You never answered my question before
Sorry Tom, what was your question. I've probably over looked it or saw it as a statement. Please repeat.
And incidentally im not shouting, and if i was that claim would be leveled against everyone else here.
people to get vaccinated is a trait of fascism
WOW Tom, I think you have picked up the wrong end of the stick, .
All I have said, is people should have the freedom to choose to have the vaccine or not. Which is what 80,000 NHS staff are going on about. The nurses union is saying the same thing. Many or the people int he street are saying the same thing. NO Mandate. Freedom to choose we have, but the proposal is freedom to chose, and if you dont chose to have it there will be a penalty to pay, which in the case of the NHS staff is the loss of their job. Or in employment the loss of sick pay should you become infected. There are more reason to people not wishing to be vaccinated than not just for the hell of it.
That must be a first in the history of the anti vaxx movement. To be pro vaxx, to happily accept all the jabs, to say to others to get the jabs and at the same time be anti vaxx.
(To avoid any misunderstanding: this reply is not directed at you in this instance, "you" here is a generalisation referring to "one / them / someone," it's simply easier to type).
As soon as you feel the need to justify your argument before you've even started making it, you're generally on shaky ground and know it. It's the "I'm not racist but..." gambit.
"I'm not racist but..." [says something racist] "... and one of my friends is black!"
"I've had my vaccinations but..." [trots out the usual widely-debunked tropes]
"I'm new here but..." [totally isn't a returning banned]
"I voted Remain but..." [hi, I'm dazh] 😁
"No offence but..." [says something offensive]
"I'm not being funny but..." [wants to call you a prick and get away with it]
&c, &c.
If your intentions are honourable then you shouldn't need to feel compelled to bookend it. (And yes, I know that's almost what I just did.)
*coughs*
Always check the posting history.
Freedom of choice is an anti vaxx argument
No. Your dogged and persistent assertion that we don't have freedom of choice when we clearly do is an anti-vax argument. As is all the "what next?" slippery slope fallacies being thrown about by all and sundry.
Really? You stopped reading after 6 words?
Do you think that you shouting at anyone that will listen, that “forcing” (your, incorrect, word) people to get vaccinated is a trait of fascism, bathes the vaccine in a positive or negative light?
If you were unsure about something, would someone you know linking it to fascism encourage you to get it?
Or do you not really give a ****, and this is all just a bit of sport to you?
edit, going further, if an antivaxxer supports your view (that it's a fascist plot) is it therefore an antivax view, regardless of if you've succumbed to it had the vaccine?
Freedom of choice is an anti vaxx argument
Freedom to infect is a pro ***t choice.
I don’t think Robert Muler claimed to simgle handedly develop anything in that interview,
Malone. Maybe not in that interview but he has many other times.
thanks for the link, mostly way outside my field of understanding but the bits that meant something to me were helpful, it certainly is a very interesting and versatile technology that will be a game changer for many. The safety concerns of it's use are acknowleged there but very breifly.
re the ivermectin and the principals of Clinical Pharmacology, again I am not really qualified to comment but there does seem to be evidence it was useful in India when distributed.
As per a report published in The Indian Express on May 12, 2021, the Uttar Pradesh government itself had conceded that the large-scale therapeutic use of Ivermectin helped to maintain a low Covid-19 positivity rate and a low fatality rate as compared to the other Indian States. Following the development of the first Covid-19 cluster in Agra, the State Health Department introduced Ivermectin and Doxycycline in August 2020 for both prophylaxis and treatment of the Wuhan Coronavirus.
While speaking to The Indian Express, State Surveillance Officer Vikasendu Agrawal had said, “Uttar Pradesh was the first state in the country to introduce large-scale prophylactic and therapeutic use of Ivermectin. In May-June 2020, a team at Agra, led by Dr Anshul Pareek, administered Ivermectin to all RRT team members in the district on an experimental basis. It was observed that none of them developed Covid-19 despite being in daily contact with patients who had tested positive for the virus.”
Get your sense of perspective back please you massive drama queen.
Can I re-quote that back to you on your anti ebike posts?
@ iffoverload
I'd tend to think this analysis is more credible.
You’re siting more and more rubbish from terrible sources. It’s not helping anyone take you seriously.
PJM1974
Free MemberFreedom to infect is a pro ***t choice.
Thing is that vaccination reduces transmition (probably,but varients..?) and encourages social activity.
So the "Freedom" of the vaxport green pass scheme could be considered as giving people a false sense of security and actually encouraging and sanctioning transmission.
My dormant-forum-account-recently-reactivated-****er-o-meter is frankly going nuts.
Perhaps you're sitting too close to it.
The problem with ivermectin and also hydroxychloroquine and other old drugs, is that they work in the lab. So they MUST work in patients? Sadly the doses needed to work are toxic. It’s not that they won’t stop the virus, it’s just you’ll be poisoned taking them at levels that do. We call that a “therapeutic index” ivermectin doesn’t have one. A dose 30x higher might be interesting. There have been cases of ivermectin poisoning in the US.
Pfizer’s paxlovid is the first real antiviral tablet of note with a proper therapeutic index. It’s efficacy would not have been missed in a small trial like the many many trials run for ivermectin.
And yes, the history of mRNA is fascinating. That some are sensitive to the peg coating was already known before trials began.
Freedom of choice is an anti vaxx argument ?. So you believe freedom is anti vaxx. Thats the only one I’ve postulated throughout this entire thread.
We've been here before, mate - you HAVE freedom of choice.
Yes pongo I know that.
We have freedom of choice. We can either do what we are told, or face consequences.
But even if that wasn't the case as I see it, here's the thing, the crux. None of you are ratifying my freedom of choice.
You're shouting, and screaming and insulting and demeaning, but not, not accepting.
@ poopscoop
yeah would have to agree, the takeaway for me on that is the bottom line
" Scientists have said that more study is necessary. "
and
"that there is no peer-reviewed randomized control study that shows that ivermectin is the reason why cases are going down"
this is not proof that it did not have a possibly beneficial effect, might be good reasons why further study is not being done though... IDK.
Also very interesting was the "garbage data" angle, given the way people like to chuck around numbers here it is concerning that this "data" which is subject to multiple variables is taken as some form of conclusive proof of anything rather than a rough indicator, testing levels 0 = cases 0 and it is not really in doubt that every case is not reported for a variety of reasons. IMO the numbers are mostly misleading.
edit @TiRed oh they have done trials, makes sense and thanks.
So the “Freedom” of the vaxport green pass scheme could be considered as giving people a false sense of security and actually encouraging and sanctioning transmission.
F*** me.
The mental gymnastics that have been wrangled here deserve some sort of award, here! it is!
Thats the only one I’ve postulated throughout this entire thread.
No you’ve also argued that mandating vaccines for healthcare staff is in some way akin to Nazi Germany/The Holocaust/Fascism. That isn’t some generic ‘arguing for freedom’ (whatever that means), it’s a specific argument.
A specific (if specious) argument that happens also to be part of the general COVID-19 antivaxx conspiracist canon.
Jerusalem: Protesters against COVID-19 measures who liken themselves to Jews under Nazi persecution are stoking global anti-Semitism, the Israeli government said in a report marking International Holocaust Remembrance Day.
Such Holocaust tropes have become "widespread" and, along with violent demonstrations linked to Israel's May war in Gaza, were main factors behind physical or online attacks on Jews in Europe and North America last year, said the 152-page report by the Diaspora Affairs Ministry.Several US and British politicians have in recent months apologised after suggesting vaccine or lockdown policies recalled Hitler's regime.
Some demonstrators against pandemic curbs have worn yellow stars like those the Nazis forced on European Jews.
Such displays showed factual knowledge of the genocide was eroding, the report said, adding that some COVID-19 agitators have been "consuming and disseminating anti-Semitic conspiracy theories that Jews are responsible for the crisis and are using it for oppression, global domination, economic gain, etc".
Expanding on the findings, Diaspora Affairs Minister Nachman Shai said Holocaust distortion or trivialisation is itself anti-Semitic and can sometimes lead to actual endangerment of Jews.
PJM1974
Free MemberF*** me.
er, appreciate the offer but will respectfully decline as you have declined to respond sensibly to a logical argument or what you consider "mental gymnastics"* lol
* Is that because you find it such an effort to think?
er, appreciate the offer but will respectfully decline as you have declined to respond sensibly to a logical argument or what you consider “mental gymnastics”* lol
* Is that because you find it such an effort to think?
Which Viz comic strip did you land from, Mr Logic?
So the “Freedom” of the vaxport green pass scheme could be considered as giving people a false sense of security and actually encouraging and sanctioning transmission.
Lets pick this apart.
"A vax passport scheme might encourage transmission"
"Promoting condom usage might encourage people to have sex"
F***Sake P7. Bringing the holocaust into this ?. thats your doing. not mine.No doubt you'd happily add that to your rebuttals, now you've happily included it.
There have been fascist governments throughout the world and across time. Not all of them engaged in genocide. Nazi Germany is the most modern example that most wall be able to identify. I could have used the Roman empire or Sparta as reference to this, but Germany under the nazi regime I felt was more understandable a concept.
.
And when freedom is removed from democracy, what then do you call it ?. Certainly not democracy.
This is not a rhetorical question(not that that will deter you lol.)
What does that even mean
Well.... Every person has the right and freedom of thought, belief, possessing a political opinion, the choice to fulfill or not to fulfill the requirements of his chosen religion. Nobody can dominate other opinions and consciences
In contemporary democracies, individual freedoms have a special value and importance, and these individual freedoms cannot be subject to state or personal interventions.
So yes I have been referring to freedom continually.
You are perfectly entitled to your opinion on the matter. I for one have never challenged that. That would impede on your freedom of choice.
You,and others on this thread have done nothing but.
But even if that wasn’t the case as I see it, here’s the thing, the crux. None of you are ratifying my freedom of choice.
You’re shouting, and screaming and insulting and demeaning, but not, not accepting.
What do you want freedom of choice on that you believe you do not already have? What ratification or acceptance do you seek?
Because, sincerely, I don't get it. I'm at a loss as to what you want any more beyond someone patting you on the head and telling you that you've been right all along. You're redefining words to fit your narrative and screaming about things that don't exist just in case they ever do which they won't.
Seriously. What do you want? What do you want us to say that we haven't said a hundred times over? Do you just want to be wrong and still win?
^Have fun going through the posting history, forumites.
Seriously. What do you want? What do you want us to say that we haven’t said a hundred times over? Do you just want to be wrong and still win?
Yes, I think that's the objective.
I dont want to tell you anything, and Ive no idea why you feel the need to force your opinion on myself and others in this thread.
These are my feelings and thoughts on this subject. Accept or deny, it makes little difference and your words are never going to change that from my perspective.
Personally I cant understand why you continually hound me to explain when you know i wont accept your point of view. I may respect it and i do, but it differs from mine and if you cant get this into your head, there's nothing further to be said.
WOW Tom, I think you have picked up the wrong end of the stick, .
6 posts into the thread, you called everyone on here that agreed with the NHS's position, that its staff must be vaccinated, fascists. Or that fascism was alive and well on STW.
You were then proud of yourself quoting, who you thought was Hitler, a made up by antovaxxers quote about the controlling of populations. You said it was the first thing you googled that fitted your view.
Your using of words like forced and mandated makes it appear that people should resist a bad thing. It's emotive language like this that hits home with people, true or not (not, in your case), that may give additional concern to someone who might go either way on getting it or not. If you think they should get it, as you have, don't say shit like the above that might discourage that.
F***Sake P7. Bringing the holocaust into this ?. thats your doing. not mine.No doubt you’d happily add that to your rebuttals, now you’ve happily included it.
There have been fascist governments throughout the world and across time. Not all of them engaged in genocide
Really? This is how this has played out so far:
You: "Employers requiring that employees are inoculated against virulent diseases that might cause harm to both themselves and those in their care, that's just fascism!"
P7: "You know what the fascists did, right?"
You: "Oh, yeah, well, I didn't mean those fascists, I meant the cuddly ones. What's wrong with you, sicko?!"
Live by the sword, dude.
*popcorn*
