And i could continue referencing sources.
Don’t you think thats shocking
Leaving aside it's nothing to do with vaccines, I'm not sure what point you think you're proving - hospitals had flagged up that they were receiving potentially illegal DNR notices, that the government and health bodies all said was contrary to the guidance issued. I'm not seeing any government plot in the evidence you have presented.
How people don’t know this rattles my brain….. And really just sums up the whole debacle for me.
They do not want to see or understand anything that discredits their position
while I am anti vaccine mandates I do not try to bolster my position with fake science and I will accept what those with expertise tell me. I know enough to sift out the nonsense
@monkeyboyjc:
Who for? https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths?areaType=overview&areaName=United%20Kingdom
The vaccinated. That's who for.
1) Sure, the anti-vaxxers are still dying in their droves. That's their stupid choice.
2) Unfortunately those with co-morbidities are dying still. There's nowt we can do about that.
3) Really unfortunately, the immuno suppressed are shit scared. Again, there's nowt we can do about that.
Covid is OVER. As over as it's ever going to be. Vaccination was the END-GAME.
Well, everyone who wants to be vaccinated has been, and been offered a booster. These people are protected as science can make them.
Aside from eradicating the virus - which we can't/won't do (pick one) - there is literally *nothing* else that can be done now.
So Covid is over. Time to crack on with life and stop talking about it.
The vaccinated. That’s who for.
Really unfortunately, the immuno suppressed are shit scared. Again, there’s nowt we can do about that.
Great - I'll shoot my wife now and be done with it then...?
Covid is OVER. As over as it’s ever going to be. Vaccination was the END-GAME
You know that it's a global pandemic? It's not just about UK vaccinations and we live in a global society?
The end game will more than likely take a few more years yet, even with high levels of vaccination and natural suppression / herd immunity.
Thing is we live in a society, that generally, cares about other people. If we all just say, f'it, Covids over - I'm covered! that 177k death rate will, even with vaccination, sky rocket.
Like the rest of your arguement
What rest of the argument?
As for reducing transmnission, that may be generally true for vaccines, but in the case of Covid it is not yet known either way (though we do know for sure that it does not stop it).
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-transmission-idUSKBN29N1UH
So your argument is the one that is pure pish my friend.
@monkeyboyjc:
Great – I’ll shoot my wife now and be done with it then…?
Sorry your wife is immunocompromised. I really am. I have friends in the same position.
You don't want to hear it - but this is the truth - covid the disease is going nowhere. Your wife's been dealt a shit hand. We're not going to eradicate covid. Vaccinated and whatever medical interventions the health service is bringing to to the party is the best that can be done now.
But covid HAS to be over. Because the vast majority of people cannot - will not - spend the rest of their lives living in fear of it.
And, regardless of whether you agree with these facts (for facts they are) - we're stopping wearing masks, schools are going back, people are going to sporting events, life is returning to normal. This is because - as far as Blighty is concerned - vaccines were the End Game.
I'm sorry for your continued fear. I genuinely am. But there's nothing anybody else can do now.
Edit:
You know that it’s a global pandemic? It’s not just about UK vaccinations and we live in a global society?
Yep. We should be giving our vaccines to other countries now.
Covid, in blighty, is over though. Life is returning to normal. As it should.
Really unfortunately, the immuno suppressed are shit scared. Again, there’s nowt we can do about that.
Actually there is . Get vaccinated, wear masks, observe distancing, ventilate indoor areas. simple measures that reduce transmission without causing any real detriment
Covid, in blighty, is over though. Life is returning to normal. As it should.
Only in england and only because Johnson is pandering to his hard right back benches. basic anti transmission measures offer significant protection to the vulnerable. Stop being such a selfish clown. Your freedom to not comply with simple measures does not outweigh the right of the vulnerable to not die
You are a selfish idiot
Stop doubling down on bullshine.
How many people do yo want to kill so you do not have to take basic simple measures to stop killing people. thats the reality. Blood on your hands.
Josh Rogan content. (sorry)
https://www.bitchute.com/video/RbEtHaVCeNYs/
this Dr Muler chap...
seems to be qualified but has repeatedly been attacked, appears to raise some good points.
what is his angle and why is he being silenced on MSM?
@jude
The headline's written as if it is against the reduced transmission theory, but the actual fact being checked is that it doesn't, that claim being made in a FB post that says as a result the vaccinated are effectively becoming silent spreaders.
You're right there's not conclusive evidence, but the article says
"Meanwhile, there is currently no conclusive evidence to claim the COVID-19 vaccine stops people spreading the virus that causes the disease – nor is there for the opposite. Early findings from Oxford/AstraZeneca revealed its vaccine could have some effect on transmitting the virus (here), while similar results have also been reported by Pfizer/BioNTech (here).
There's a difference between inconclusive (or even not proved) and disproved. You can't dismiss a theory based on early findings as "pure pish" - at least not yet.
I'll wait and see thanks - if in six months, or a year, deaths drop and hospital admissions recede to pre pandemic levels I'll happily agree. As it currently stands cases (in my area) and deaths nationally are still rising/continue.
Covid won't stop because it 'has too' because we all want to go back to 2019, it won't stop because the government has changed its measures - it'll stop when it does, gradually - society has, and will change with it.
I've also edited my previous response.
what is his angle and why is he being silenced on MSM?
He wrote a paper in the mid / late 90's on the use mRNA vaccines, which were just about being invented and talked about at the time. The paper has been misquoted by a couple antivax people in the us the videos of which subsequently went viral - the anti vaxers who quoted him first stated that they were also Dr's, but we're found to have bought their qualifications from one of those 'mail me a doctorate' university's in the US, one was a doctorate in homeopathy iirc, & the university went bust in the same month he bought his qualification 🤔
Anyway the mis- quote was basically that he would never in any circumstances, ever, have a human take an mRNA vaccine. He has subsequently stated he'd never said that and that it was a mis quote or out of context etc, he has also has personally had 2 doses of the Moderna vaccine so far.
The paper is now over 25yrs out of date but is still used in various antivax propaganda. We have 4? Nobel prize winners in the field and numerous papers which disagree.
I still can’t understand how folks don’t understand the benefits to society of vaccination. Debate the transmission risk all you want, but more unvaccinated means more people in hospital, equals more pressure on the nhs. This is an undisputed fact.
So if you don’t want to get vaccinated don’t, it’s your choice. But don’t come up with shite about how it only benefits the individual because unless you are pig shit thick you know that’s not true
@monkeyboyjc:
I’ll wait and see thanks – if in six months, or a year, deaths drop and hospital admissions recede to pre pandemic levels I’ll happily agree.
It's not going to drop to pre-pandemic levels. Covid's never going to stop. It's going to kill people forever. And every single person on the planet is going to get it. Likely repeatedly.
Beyond everybody getting vaccinated who will (and all the anti-vaxxers getting a level of immunity through infection (at a 30+ times higher death toll than the vaccinated) there's nothing else to be done.
@Tjagain:
Get vaccinated, wear masks, observe distancing, ventilate indoor areas. simple measures that reduce transmission without causing any real detriment
1) Vaccinated - pretty much everyone who's getting vaccinated has been vaccinated. TICK.
2) Masks? I think its a good idea if you're ill and decide not to stay at home. Works well in the east. It's a general "hygene" thing. so TICK for that - but do you expect everyone to wear masks forever?
3) Observe Distancing. What? For-ever? Nope. During the worst of the pandemic until we were vaccinated? Yep. (TICK) But now? Lol. Jump. We're getting back to what humans like to do - close physical contact. And that is correct - and the existence of the immunocompromised (who were immunocompromised before covid) won't be stopping that. It didn't before, so it won't now.
4) Ventilate indoor areas. Yep. But it's going to be pointless in crowded bars, for example. Unless you are suggesting that we can never again get to crowded bars? Which would suck.
so:
5) simple measures that reduce transmission. TICK. During the pandemic until we were vaccinated.
Now we've been vaccinated? Nope. Back to normal. Sorry. But not sorry. Not really. Vaccination was the end game. The world is now a covid world. You could insist on all the above measures and *everyone would still get it* - so all of your above measures are largely pointless.
I feel for those who've been dealt a shit hand. I've done my utmost for the last two years of my life to obey every single thing I can do. Fully compliant.
But I'm not compromising the rest of my life for other people. And the vast majority of humans won't want to either. And not only won't they want to - they're not going to.
That doesn't put "blood on our hands" . That's down to the existence of Covid. That we've done the best we can with. By getting vaccinated.
Get your sense of perspective back please you massive drama queen.
monkeyboyjc
Full Memberwhat is his angle and why is he being silenced on MSM?
He wrote a paper in the mid / late 90’s on the use mRNA vaccines..
He claims to have done more than that, a lot more. Being misquoted is not a reason for his views to be censored is it? He also claims to have been targeted to have his medical licence revoked under some rather odd circumstances.
Why is this guy getting singled out?
But I’m not compromising the rest of my life for other people.
And for all your bluster, there we have it. "I'm not wearing a bit of cloth on my face any more just because not doing so might kill someone I don't know. I feel for them, I really do, but ultimately, **** 'em, they should be used to being social pariahs by now. I'm going to the pub, hopefully a crowded one."
Get your sense of perspective back please you massive drama queen.
Well now. Irony?
why is he being silenced on MSM?
...
Why is this guy getting singled out?
I've no idea who this guy is and I don't really care to find out. But I'm curious as to how "being silenced in mainstream media" works. Like, is that not just "not getting airtime because it's not newsworthy"? By that logic, you're being silenced on MSM too.
Covid, in blighty, is over though. Life is returning to normal. As it should.
A million pupils out of school, lessons cancelled because there's no cover for missing staff. I know you really, really want your statement to be true, but it ain't.
@pondo - RETURNING to normal. Not "back to normal" - but on it's way there.
@Cougar - the aim was to stop the spread until the vaccines were here. Now the vaccines are here. - and covid is here *forever*
So tell me again. What does mask wearing achieve any more? Considering - masks or not - we're all going to get it multiple times?
Perspective.
Vaccines were the end game. The immunocompromised have been dealt a bad hand - but we can't "un-deal" that hand to them. We could all wear masks, all day, every day, everywhere - and they're still going to get covid.
So there's no moral argument for continued restrictions on the vast majority of the population like there was before - because once the vaccines were here, that was the best we could hope for.
We're vaccinated. That's it. I'm not saying you have to like it. But you DO have to lump it.
Cougar asked me to provide evidence on this subject, so i have.
And I appreciate that. I'll try and get time to have a look through it in the morning, though your sources (eg, the Daily Mail and Torygraph) don't immediately fill me with confidence.
He just chose to answer with a query rather than go look for himself.
We've been through this. It's not my job to back up or refute your claims. You can post shit all day long which may or may not be true, it's easy to post emotive one-liners that you might've heard once but I'm going to Chope it all until you start doing some fact-checking before you post. If and when I trust you as a source then I'll take you at your word, at this moment in time this has not happened.
So I’ve added the links for him to see.
Would've generated 80% less requirement for WOO HOO from you if you'd just done that in the first place.
Covid’s never going to stop.
I thought you were saying that it’s over? Or were you just hoping that we don’t have to think about it, or consider it, any more. An understandable desire. Telling people that what you hope for is just fact is an interesting way of trying to get your head in that space though.
Anecdotally I’m most usually happy to be wrong because there is an opportunity to learn.
Likewise. Which is just as well, because it happens a lot. (-:
@iffoverload:
If you're talking about Andrew Wakefield (?) he was a criminal t**t of the highest order who was struck off the medical register because he more than anyone created and stoked the anti-vaxxer movement by his debunked, scientifically disproven idiocy.
100% disproven. Not "controversial". Not "mixed results". Peer-reviewed bullcrap.
One of the few humans I would happily see dead, because idiots follow - and anti-vaxxers follow him in droves. And he's *killed* them and made all of this harder and longer than it needed to be for everyone.
So he went abroad. Continues to make loads of cash as far as I know.
@pondo – RETURNING to normal. Not “back to normal” – but on it’s way there.
Nope, worse than it's ever been and getting worse. Sorry - reality's a bastard, isn't it.
Hey @judetheobscure member since 5th Dec 2021, who has never once posted a topic or replied to a thread in the *actual* cycling forum. I'm still waiting for you to apologise.
Also, which do you prefer, SRAM or Shimano? Steel or ally, 650B or 26"?
@Kelvin:
I thought you were saying that it’s over? Or we’re just hoping that we don’t have to think about it, or consider it, any more.
Don't be disingenuous. You know exactly what I mean by "covid's over".
But to be explicit - "covid is over" means we've had our vaccinations, that's the best we can do. Now we have to go back to normal life and live with it.
For many of us vaccinated types that means we might get to our 80's and then covid is going to get us then - when we develop co-morbidities that make us much more vulnerable.
But until then - covid is OVER - we can - and should - crack on. Because there's nothing else meaningful we can do to combat it.
And meaningful is important. Yes, we can wear masks every day. Disposable gloves. Rub alcohol gels in our faces and test before we answer the door to the postie. But it won't stop each and every one of us catching it.
So we need to crack on. And the people who've been dealt a bad hand need to crack on too. And we will - in fact ARE doing.
I'm not sure what the world will look like with Covid. But I'll find out. And discuss it with my mates. In a crowded pub with a jam to get to the bar.
And maybe when I'm 80 I'll die of it. But I'm not going to live in fear of it until then.
@chevychase No I was asking about Dr Robert Muler
Cougar
Full Member
I’ve no idea who this guy is and I don’t really care to find out.
well he is one of the key people behind the development of the technology you are
promoting
.... would do my graduate work at san diego and i'd been accepted into a program at ucsan diego that had two of the top gene therapy specialists I really wanted to do gene therapywith retroviruses that was what I thought was going to bemy life and so we moved down to san diego and I started working in the laboratory of indoor verma which is in the molecular biology and virology labs at the salk institute and this is a placewhere graduate students normally aren't allowed to go it was there was seven nobel laureatesat the time plus Jonas a really intense competitive environment carved out a little niche that Iwas going to work on for my graduate work which was asking questions about how retrovirusRNA is packaged and from that I had to develop a series of technologies to manufacture RNAand structure it and eventually put it into cells and that through a cascade of events being at theright place the right time asking the right questions surrounded by geniuses led to the series of discoveries that now performs the basis of the RNA technology platform that gives rise to thesevaccines and 10 issued patents from they were all filed in ‘89. So, that's kind of my origin storythat it relates to this virus and vaccine and this but since then went on finished my md did twofellowships at uc davis top pathology for years set up a gene therapy lab had many other discoveries came out to the east coast created the technology platform that is now the basis of the company called inovio we actually originally founded inovio in the United States this is uhpulsed electrical fields they have one of the DNA vaccines for Covid then the planes hit thetowers the investors pulled back and I went to work for a company called dynport vaccinecompany that had the prime systems contract as government speak for all the biodefenseproducts for the department of defense for advanced development which is to say clinical trialsthrough licensure and that's my kind of transition from being an academic to focusing on actuallymaking things that work in people and the big epiphany there was that the world is full of theseacademic thought leaders that publish in big journals and stuff but that doesn't really lead toproducts and I really wanted to make productsthat would help people and so since then for the last I guess about 20 years I've been focusedon actually doing stuff regulatory affairs, clinical development, getting necessary training, etc.completed a fellowship at harvard university medical school in uh global as a global clinicalscholar to round out my cv and I've uh run you know over 100 clinical trials mostly in the vaccinespace but also in drug repurposing I've been involved in every major outbreak since aids this iskind of what I do um I've won literally billions of dollars in federal grants and contracts I'm oftenbrought in by nih to serve as a study section chair for awarding you know 80 to 120 million dollar contracts in vaccines and biodefense I've spent countless hours at the CDC at the AC ACIPmeetings um I have multiple friends at the CDC I work closely with defense threat reductionagency which is a and it's one of my favorite uh clients partners teaming partners and I workwith the chem biodefense group there's other branches um including the other this is not thebranch that funded the wuhan labs that's another branch of DTRA um I've got many friends inthe intelligence community so I'm I'm kind of a pretty deep insider in terms of the government Iknow Tony Fauci personally I've dealt with him my whole career and then and then we had thisparticular outbreak and um I was uh tip of the spear on bringing the ebola vaccine forward thatwe now call the merc ebola vaccine I'm the one that got Merk involved
also
But I’m curious as to how “being silenced in mainstream media” works. Like, is that not just “not getting airtime because it’s not newsworthy”? By that logic, you’re being silenced on MSM too.
No, it's not. Are you stupid or just on your 4th beer tonight? 🙂
@pondo:
Nope, worse than it’s ever been and getting worse. Sorry – reality’s a bastard, isn’t it.
Data isn't backing that up. Which is why we're removing the conditions. NHS is improving. Death rates are falling because the vaccine remains effective and omicron, despite being much more contagious, isn't killing as many people (whilst infecting many times more).
So no. Reality is looking up.
But even if you were competent at understanding facts, figures and graphs - and weren't just wrong all day - then reality still wouldn't be a bastard - because I'm vaccinated and the facts on the ground right now is that we're removing restrictions.
Tomorrow night I'm off for a pint or two with the o/h and then for either a pizza or a curry. Un-masked, with the rest of the majority-vaccinated blighty. What a bastard reality eh?
Aside from eradicating the virus – which we can’t/won’t do (pick one) – there is literally *nothing* else that can be done now.
Are you familiar with treatments? Have you tried to access one? It’s not over until the fat lady sings gets simple access to antivirals.
Seriously, we’re about a year behind the virus. Next winter will see rollout of omicron specific vaccines that with have much improved efficacy against symptoms. We will have rapid access to treatments. The winter after, we’ll be ahead of the game. And the winter after that, we’ll be endemic and “over”. There’ll still be people who won’t want the vaccine though 😟
The real test of over is how we deal with another variant. It’s been getting better, but we got lucky with omicron. When vaccine escape really happens, it’s over when we’re ready for it. And we will be.
And meaningful is important.
Indeed. Testing before visiting care homes, or your cancer clinic. That’ll carry on for a while I’m afraid. Wearing a mask while you’re in queue because you’ve got a bit of a cough, that one might be with us still next winter at least. All sorts of small adaptations that don’t remove meaning from life might be with us for a while. But not forever. As you keep saying, vaccines (and I’ll add treatments) are the end game, and they have much more to offer yet.
As for whatever you’ve been doing with gloves, gel and your postie… you can probably stop that now.
I’ll be choosing mask wearing in shops and public transport etc for a while yet. But you don’t have to. I don’t have to share your idea that the pandemic is over, but don’t confuse that for not wishing it was.
And as for the pub stuff, that feels like a rant from a year ago. Pub going has felt pretty normal for a lot of people for a while now.
chevychase - Free Member
So we need to crack on. And the people who’ve been dealt a bad hand need to crack on too.
That's just too, too charming not to quote. Next time I see a picture of doctors with faces rubbed raw by PPE, clinicians sleeping in scrubs on trolleys in hallways, relatives in tears graveside, I'll just remember to myself - in spite of the simple mitigations we can all take, those people just got dealt a bad hand. F*** em, crack on everybody.
The humanity's almost enough to make me weep.
eg, the Daily Mail and Torygraph) don’t immediately fill me with confidence.
Naw sorry, thats a trap. I included the DM because i wanted you to show issue with that source ,while the rest are from medical forums.
It’s not my job to back up or refute your claims.
No it is not, but you chose to query them none the less pushing the ball into my court. What were you expecting me to do when you posted the question ?.
Would’ve generated 80% less requirement for WOO HOO from you if you’d just done that in the first place.
Indeed, but you'd vanished and i thought your mum had called you in for tea, or to stop playing with your action men and come down to put your jammies on.
Data isn’t backing that up.
Isn't it?!? Well, holy shit I just got a revelation - my wife, our friends, all those teachers on social media, they're just wrong and everything's getting back to normal! She'll be so pleased that she doesn't have to worry about progress 8 for classes with 60% attendance where she also has to create online content that almost certainly won't get done, as well as writing cover for her colleagues who aren't there and/or cover teachers that don't arrive. That's a big tick for the children and she no longer has to worry about passing her performance management - woo hoo! 🙂
Those million kids out of school, the data doesn't back THAT up, right? 🙂
So tell me again. What does mask wearing achieve any more?
What harm does it do?
Considering – masks or not – we’re all going to get it multiple times?
Perhaps, but, it reduses risk. If you had a cold would you sneeze in someone's face because they're probably going to catch it anyway, or would you use a tissue? Christ, "coughs and sneezes spread diseases" was a slogan a hundred years ago, they'd probably have sold the soul of their firstborn for a box of FFP2 masks.
The immunocompromised have been dealt a bad hand – but we can’t “un-deal” that hand to them.
**** 'em them. Amirite?
No I was asking about Dr Robert Muler
Dr Robert Malone. Self proclaimed founder of MRNA vaccines, he wasn’t they’d be development long before he was on the scene, he was part of 100s of researchers who were part of what we got. He spat his dummy out over something and left his employer, I can’t recall what. Since then he’s been very bitter and claims to invented, spreads dangerous misinformation and had in injunction placed on him for repeatedly he was employed by a health care company he wasn’t part of. He’s the Farage of virology, sells any story to whoever will give him airtime and cash.
... but you’d vanished and i thought your mum had called you in for tea, or to stop playing with your action men and come down to put your jammies on.
I know you're ostensibly not anti-vax but that's anti-vac tactics to a tee when you run out of logic to argue with.
Perspective.
Vaccines were the end game. The immunocompromised have been dealt a bad hand – but we can’t “un-deal” that hand to them. We could all wear masks, all day, every day, everywhere – and they’re still going to get covid.
My wife is immunocompromised, my stepson is immunocompromised, one of my bestest mates ever is immunocompromised. You're saying that I should just shrug my shoulders and say "meh"?
Continues to make loads of cash as far as I know.
The worse bit is he’s now shagging Ella McPherson I believe, whereas if there was any justice in this world he’d have died of syphilis long ago..
There is no “I” in drug development. Anyone with a track record knows that. He may have played a small part, but you have operation warp speed to thank for mRNA from Moderna, and you have prevnar and enzalutamide to thank for Pfizer (they paid for their own trials). The technology had a ten year lead-in. A pneumococcal Vaccine and prostate cancer revenues got them over the line.
As far as masks go, we need to be more Japanese.
They *amazingly* think it's a little anti social to spread their germs if they are ill. Mad eh? Is Brits proudly stumble into work to spread our snot to as many colleagues as we can.
I'll say it again, if people can't be bothered to wear a mask during a pandemic I doubt they've ever bothered to wash their hands after having a dump either.
well he is one of the key people behind the development of the technology you are promoting
For at least the third time on this thread: I'm not promoting anything.
In any case, I refer your wall of text to the reply monkeyboyjc already gave you. [EDIT: and Drac]
No, it’s not. Are you stupid or just on your 4th beer tonight?
If that's the best response you've got then I think I'm done talking with you, smiley face or no.
I don't think Robert Muler claimed to simgle handedly develop anything in that interview, have you seen it? If you have not I guess asking for opinions on his views is pointless..
If that’s the best response you’ve got then I think I’m done talking with you, smiley face or no.
play stupid games... win stupid prizes 🙂
Are you familiar with treatments? Have you tried to access one? It’s not over until the fat lady sings gets simple access to antivirals.
Oh my word yes. Unless a Benjamin Button vaccine comes along my 92 year old mum is going to be at risk, boosted or not.
Being able to make a call, or go to a pharmacy the same day as a positive test to start her on a course of antivirals?... When I can do that for her I will feel, personally, I've finally come out of this bloody long, dark, tunnel.
I can see a very bright light now but I'm still not quiet there.
