6 posts into the thread, you called everyone on here that agreed with the NHS’s position
Everyone Tom. in 6 posts ??? thats stretching the truth out the back door and along the road.
If something is forced it is not a choice. What you should be asking yourself Tom is -What is the effect of force choice on choice.
When it comes to the government. NOT the NHS, the NHS is following the government, not the other way around. Forced choice is not democratic.Slew it any way you want, agree disagree, that is your prerogative.
But feel free to read my latest section on democracy and freedom. I hope it isnt to extreme a concept for you to get your head around.
I dont want to tell you anything, and Ive no idea why you feel the need to force your opinion on myself and others in this thread.
My opinions are no more being forced upon you or, one might say, "mandatory" than anything else that you've asserted is. You're choosing to take part in this discussion, other threads are available.
These are my feelings and thoughts on this subject. Accept or deny
Pff. Think what you want, truth is that you neither want nor need my acceptance.
it makes little difference and your words are never going to change that from my perspective.
Then you're a fool and you're wasting everyone's time.
Personally I cant understand why you continually hound me to explain
You really think I'm "hounding" you? Sorry if that's the case. I thought we were having a debate.
when you know i wont accept your point of view. I may respect it and i do
Nah, you don't.
If something is forced it is not a choice.
If something is a choice, it is not forced.
I hope it isnt to extreme a concept for you to get your head around.
You know, I'm getting kinda tired now of this condescending bollocks from you. It's uncalled for and it does you no favours.
Not the NHS cougar, the government. the government makes the laws, not the nhs. The nhs will follow the rules and if the government says sack them, they will sack them. But the damage to the nhs will ber so great that im sure the government will back down.
As i said, accept my position or not, as i accept yours.
Bye now.
You said (a lot of stuff) but this stood out to me:
In contemporary democracies, individual freedoms have a special value and importance, and these individual freedoms cannot be subject to state or personal interventions.
So you say, but it (to me) reads (curiously similarly) as might a selective quote-mine from an Ataturk declaration on Republic of Turkey Ministry Of Culture and Tourism webpage:
In contemporary democracies, the individual freedoms have special value and importance. From now on, these individual freedoms may be subject neither to the state nor to personal intervention. However, such valuable individual freedom cannot be taken to be absolute in a civilized and democratic nation. What is meant by freedom is social and civilized human freedom. Therefore, while thinking of individual freedom, every individual’s and the entire nation’s common interests and the existence of the state must be taken into consideration. The rights and freedoms of others and the nation’s common interests limit individual freedom.
(My bold)
Is this now a discussion about Turkish governance?* Or a wider discussion about the different meanings of representative and direct democracies?
*A small quip. Of course I’m not really 100% suggesting that you quote-mined from the KTB, but if you do please have the original (?) quote then I’d be happy to read in full and maybe better understand where you’re coming from?
No I got it from an American democracy site.So its been partly quoted.
But the notion and concept of it must still stand. Democracy does stand for freedom. forced choice, or enforced choice cant be the same as unenforced choice. That i think would be an oxymoron.
In relation to this pandemic, the far reaches of it and the different points of view on offer to each argument cannot be compacted down to a single denial.
Democracy is democracy, and its concept runs back to ancient Athens. We in the modern west are a democratic system, which stems from those early origins, but that doesnt change the facts.
You really think I’m “hounding” you? Sorry if that’s the case. I thought we were having a debate.
Well if thats the case then sure. Its just , well lets just call them 'individuals' like tom and pjm that are clouding things.
So if this is a debate on freedom and democracy. why then do you think that the concept of force is democratic or free. One negates the other.
Democracy is democracy, and its concept runs back to ancient Athens.
Which part of this scenario do you believe is undemocratic?
You / we voted for our representatives. Our representatives are telling us what to do. Democracy in action.
If you don't like that, hey, we voted for them. Why do you hate democracy?
if this is a debate on freedom and democracy.
Is it? News to me.
why then do you think that the concept of force is democratic or free
Why do you think that's what I think?
19 pages and counting, is your browser set to write-only?
No I got it from an American democracy site.
Again, if you do please have a link to the wuote/page, I can get the full look on it 👍🏼
I’m getting kinda tired now of this condescending bollocks from you. It’s uncalled for and it does you no favours.
Really.You've been doing it from the start. You're answering questions with questions. Thus your idea you think superiour. The Socratic method.
Thats not how this works. I've asked the question, answer it. If you cant or wont, then this 'debate' you are calling it cannot continue.
Condescending, yeah well you are really versed in that aint you mate, and im certainly not the first to level that at you. But you've the audacity to accuse me of doing the same.
Naff off then.
Wait, I was forced to choose whether I wanted to keep my freedom to be an EU citizen or to give it up. I chose to keep it, but then they instead took my passport from me, ergo my freedom of movement, removed practical access to employment in the world’s largest trading bloc, removed my rights, etc, etc.
Forced freedom is rubbish, I agree. So where can I sign up for some more forced democracy instead? I really would like to not wear a seatbelt or observe speed limits, not least because in a democracy I surely reserve the right to be a nobber in any way I see fit, otherwise it’s not true democracy,right?
I (true story) moved to US to get moar freedumbs, to also to live, work and provide for self and wife - but the US stated that I may only apply for/be granted residency if had certain vaccinations. What kind of ‘democracy’ is THAT? Democracy is democracy, right?
/satire
Im reporting you -PJM1974 for abuse
Fair enough i have an argument or difference of option with cougar, but you've just sat on the sidelines throwing out insults at me. That i feel is you being abusive so i feel it only fair i report that as such.
You’re answering questions with questions.
Difference is, I'm answering them. You're ignoring them.
Condescending, yeah well you are really versed in that aint you mate, and im certainly not the first to level that at you. But you’ve the audacity to accuse me of doing the same.
Naff off then.
Have you noticed that you get more aggressive as the night wears on?
Anyway. I'm taking your advice and naffing off to bed. Perhaps it'd be a good idea for you to do likewise.
Nope. no more. im just being trolled. So i wont be answering any more questions.
I think you are wrong, and just being argumentative.
dyna-ti
Free Member
Im reporting you -PJM1974 for abuse
Where has he been abusive? I've looked at the last couple of pages but can't find anything remotely like that.
Genuine question by the way..
So if this is a debate on freedom and democracy. why then do you think that the concept of force is democratic or free. One negates the other.
It’s difficult to remove the inherent strawman from that question. It really does seem from the outside that you are confusing the word ‘freedom’ with the word ‘democracy’ , and you go on to then build an ‘if - then’ conditional.
But there are numerous ‘democracy’ nouns, and many more synonyms to each of those.
This is why I asked for the link to the quote that you used. So I might better understand the practical definition/function of ‘democracy’ from which you are working? Then I may better be able to answer your above question. Otherwise (with due respect) it reads so far as your inferring that ‘democracy’ is really just another word for ‘unfettered individual freedom’ and that anyone observing/stating otherwise is already on the slippery road to state ‘fascism’?
This thread is a tremendous success - I assume that the objective was to provide a containment unit for the fReEdOm campaigners, so the rest of the forum could continue in peace?
What I've learned from the last few pages is that:
Some people don't understand words (eg: freedom, choice, democracy).
Some people think the pandemic is "over", just because they want it to be.
The hilarious irony of people claiming that Ivermectin "works", but simultaneously claiming that there isn't enough evidence to support mask-wearing, or the long term risks of the vaccines etc.
And to think that I was worried that my posts (about whether the g'ment may have put pressure on the press not to report negative stories about the vaccines) sounded a bit too much like antivax/conspiracy nonsense
jude the obscure - how many deaths that you are personally responsible for are you happy with? - because your attitude and others with similar attitudes will lead to more deaths
I have never read such a lot of dangerous selfish twaddle. Unbelievable
Anyway. I’m taking your advice and naffing off to bed. Perhaps it’d be a good idea for you to do likewise.
I dont sleep well. Ive a form of leukemia of the blood leads to fatigue that makes me sleep for short periods of time at funny hours. Coupled with hyperactivity from autism.
It's killing me i know, but theres nothing i can do about it, both are with me till the bitter end.
So I only ever get 2 or 3 hours. Been like that for the last 4 or 5 years since diagnosis, though seem to get worse as time has went on. I slept from about 3pm to about 5 or 6pm, ill not feel the need to sleep till about 6 or 7 am this morning.
Have you noticed that you get more aggressive as the night wears on?
Well im just being trolled arent I. Doesnt matter to what my opinion is, im constantly being asked to explain how i feel about this , and that is being demeaned. So no matter what I say my opinion isnt accepted.,it just leads on to more and more questions. There im being accused of not answering questions, but its only me answering or attempting to. Nothing ive said is answered. Even at the end there P7 with those dumb stuff
" I was forced to choose whether I wanted to keep my freedom to be an EU citizen or to give it up etc etc etc
Thats nothing to do with democracy, nor to do with the mandates of the vaccine to the nhs, thats the result of a democratic vote. So its not a real point he's trying to make,hes just being demeaning. or seatbelts or whatever. again nothing to do with the vaccine or anything to do with the nhs. just because its in opposition to my feelings on personal freedom and in support of others.
The NHS workers are walking about with placards saying the same thing im saying, but its easier to get onto me about my support of them than to go harass them.
Whether you think or agree or disagre with the nhs staff point of view doeesnt mean you should abuse another member for supporting them .
" Genuine question by the way.."
Accepted
“Alexa, show shit comedy, yes?”
No I got it from an American democracy site.So its been partly quoted."
the quote itself isnt important to pjm, and he's not bothered to address it, and even though it is still valid, he chooses to try to take the proverbial
Posting silly gif things. again points more to pjm's need to be accepted as a funny guy,but always at the expense of others
He's trolling. Sitting there thinking up things he feels are funny and looking to get a laugh at someone else expense. Again nothing whatsoever to do with the thread or the questions at hand, all for his personal enjoyment and hoping to get a rise. Im more than sure he wouldnt talk to anyone like that down the pub, but hiding behind a keyboard he's an absolute wag
Did i spell wag correctly. Maybe im thinking of something else 😕
So thats my feelings. I cant supply the defence for the entire 80,000nhs staff at risk of losing their jobs, and i shouldnt be being asked to but its been constant harassment going on till whats that 3am ?. I feel the need to answer the accusation put to me, but whatever i say leads to further questions like im responsible for the entire anti vaxx movement and all the people involved.
Even the others on this thread who agree with the nhs staff standpoint are being abused by the same few members.
jude the obscure – how many deaths that you are personally responsible for are you happy with? – because your attitude and others with similar attitudes will lead to more deaths
I have never read such a lot of dangerous selfish twaddle. Unbelievable
You could have addressed him as simply Jude, but you elongated his username as an insult. Christ you're transparent. Its unlikely anyone would address you as TJagain, simply TJ, or P7eaven as anything other than P7.
Jude isnt responsible for any deaths, nor you or I or anyone here. Saying such is you again being abusing towards another member claiming facts that arent facts and are in fact lies. He isnt responsible. So stop claiming he is.
Besides, he isnt even here to defend himself. Probably tucked up in bed. What an opportune time for you to make those comments. Why would you do that, why pick a comment or point of view from several pages back. Youre spitting hatred at another member. How is he expected to defend himself and who elected you high commissionaire anyway, that he should even need to answer to you ?
Unbelievable- yes, you truly are.
I just typed his name out - putting the spaces in was just as a result of typing as I normally type. I am on a keyboard and type properly. It takes more thought to not put the spaces in
He has made it quite clear that the deaths of the vulnerable are acceptable to him so he can exercise his freedoms
I don't expect him to defend himself nor do I care. He is beneath contempt
Dyna-ti...... your posts are becoming more and more incoherent. I was going to respond to a previous one, but decided better of it.
The reason that people are arguing with/challenging you is much of what you are writing is just nonsense. things like this:
Thats nothing to do with democracy, nor to do with the mandates of the vaccine to the nhs, thats the result of a democratic vote.
Just ease off...... go to bed/read a book/watch the telly.
Why not include the entire quote and what it is in relation to.
”Wait, I was forced to choose whether I wanted to keep my freedom to be an EU citizen or to give it up. I chose to keep it, but then they instead took my passport from me, ergo my freedom of movement, removed practical access to employment in the world’s largest trading bloc, removed my rights, etc, etc."
What has the result of a referendum got to do with the question of mandated vaccines. Tell me please.
Now if we'd had a referendum about mandated vaccines, which we obviously havent, then it would have relevancy.
Oh nonsense,. Utter nonsense. He spells it Judetheobscure, and point of fact everyone calls him Jude. And all wager a bottle of irnbru if you really looked into it and in a thread were you were attacking his point of view you would call him Jude too.
He has made it quite clear that the deaths of the vulnerable are acceptable to him so he can exercise his freedoms
Really. I havent seen him say that and ive went back to page 13. or maybe its you 'reading between the lines' again with what fits your rhetoric.
I don’t expect him to defend himself nor do I care
Really. Here I'll remind you or maybe its a mistake that you included that question mark, and its only down to your proper typing style.
" how many deaths that you are personally responsible for are you happy with? "
Question denotes an answer. But if you dont care, then why make it a question.
Which is all youve done. You arent looking to talk about a subject, only to lay you're own feeling on the matter to people you disagree with and you arent even being civil about it.
If its that difficult for you, why even be on this type of thread in the first place eh ?. Well we all know the answer to that one. So you can spit on people.
Pure 100% unadulterated TROLL
dude, I'm not going to argue with you..... you just seem to be some drunk bloke outside the pub , shouting at pigeons and flailing your arms about trying to get somebody to fight you.
😆
The best form of defence is attack.
I draw the line at pigeons though. Budgies however...
Naw, I'll away and play a computer game now. Something with blood and axes.
Wow - do you guys not sleep?
Well im just being trolled arent I
No, you are just being pulled up for all the nonsense you are writing (which seems to be getting longer and longer and more ridiculous).
You seem to be very lost/obsessed in this one now and if I were you I would log out of STW and leave it for a week as it is just a bike forum after all.
Wow someone really stepped up to the plate to wind everyone up, reasonable effort at claiming victimhood but technically unconvincing. 6.7/10.
I think you are wrong, and just being argumentative.
Mods, could that be put up on the front page?
If ever there was a perfect motto for this forum, nailed it. 🤣
But even if that wasn’t the case as I see it, here’s the thing, the crux. None of you are ratifying my freedom of choice.
You’re shouting, and screaming and insulting and demeaning, but not, not accepting.
Freedom to do what? You knowingly post a point of view, other people oppose it, you wilfully engage in the debate. You have the freedom to be wrong, if that's what you mean, no-one denies you that.
This is reminiscent of De Buisseret's recent Twitter breakdown - starts off with "my position is solid and unassailable", 24 hours later it's "sToP PiCkInG oN mE". This is the hill you chose to die on, dude...
Wow – do you guys not sleep?
The bots never sleep.
Don't confuse the Australians with the bots... their accounts of the pandemic from down under have been the most interesting non-bike content on this forum for me in recent years. I don't tend to reply to them, but always find it interesting to read what they've said in the morning. The very definition of looking outside our bubble.
I woke at 3 am from a nightmare, looked on here, got annoyed and made a post
I love the idea that a groggy sleep deprived me at 3 am could work out that typing someones 3 word name on here with spaces is some form of deliberate attack
Its simply my tired brain typed the three words and I hit the space bar between each one because thats what you do when you type
Jesus Christ on a bicycle, this would not be a destination if I’d awoken as a result of a nightmare.
Yeah, but you would say that T J again.
it may have been a mistake 🙂
This is like one of those fights in the movies, the assailants slugging it out with fists, kicks, chairs, breaking bottles on each others' heads......and every time you think it's over they get up again and start all over.
Whereas a real fight is two punches that barely land, and then one person realises they're on a hiding to nothing and sensibly decides to run away
My dormant-forum-account-recently-reactivated-****er-o-meter is frankly going nuts.
Aye, getting those vibes
I can confirm that I’m a bot
I like the fight analogy.
Some interesting and valid arguments made about societal responsibility, but none that I personally agree with.
I can confirm that I’m a bot
Botfink?
His counterpoints are like a shield of steel
Obvious troll complains about being trolled and then throws in a new variant of the Edinburgh Defence for good measure?!
Well that got weird.
