I listen to the people who do know, though.
Bingo.
Something I read a few weeks back, "if you find yourself arguing with a large body of experts in their chosen field, you're either an absolute genius, or an idiot."
The answer to "we don't know..." or "I don't understand..." is either find out and learn or, if it's beyond your abilities then listen to those who do.
Fifteen pages in. Minds changed: zero.
Could a different rhetorical style be better at helping inform people (readers and not just posters) as a step to giving them chance to change their minds?
I'm gonna postulate: no.
I’m gonna postulate
is that what no tan lines is doing?
Could a different rhetorical style be better at helping inform people (readers and not just posters) as a step to giving them chance to change their minds?
Pondo is correct. However, lets try.
Anyone who has posted here who is as yet unvaccinated: what would it take to change your minds?
Anyone who has posted here who is hesitant: what are your concerns and what would it take to reassure you?
Anyone who has posted here who is as yet unvaccinated: what would it take to change your minds?
I'm utterly pro vaccines and anything which encourages their uptake, but this kind of challenge makes me want to argue back. I'd suggest dialling down a notch or two and have a read of the New Statesman piece I linked. As I say, I don't agree with this line either but it offers a more productive take on the situation than "this is right, everything else is wrong". Actually may as well just quote:
Vaccine uptake among doctors is at least 90 per cent. Some of the unvaccinated may be exempt, but that still means as many as one in ten scientifically literate medics have not yet taken up immunisation. We don’t know the full reasons why Steve James doesn’t want to be vaccinated; but we can be sure that his reasons will feel entirely rational and compelling to him – and that will be true for every other vaccine-hesitant person. They won’t be explicable in terms of the scientific evidence as currently understood, but that isn’t the point. Humans often incorporate rationality into their decision-making but there are always other influences that, at certain times, create countervailing forces that weaken or even overturn rationality entirely.
So correct bollocks and untruth absolutely, but there's just no point winding folks up to try to make them agree with you.
Those who are pro-vaccination can be just as partial as James was with the scientific evidence. While immunisation does reduce the chance of healthcare workers transmitting Covid to patients, it is only a modest effect. Vaccination does not dispense with the need for the full range of infection-control measures.
Of course, patients should expect to have the risks of acquiring Covid in a healthcare facility minimised. Equally, though, the government is willing to make trade-offs here when it suits. In general practice we have experienced huge political pressure to increase face-to-face consultations, driving up Covid transmission between patients in our waiting rooms. And now self-isolation conditions are being pared back for staff with a proven infection, meaning some will inevitably bring Covid into work when they return.
In such equivocal circumstances, it generates huge ill-feeling when a government compels individuals to be jabbed against strongly held beliefs, or deprives them of their careers should they refuse.
That's probably enough. I've italicised what I think are a couple of key points [whoops - which is never going to work with quotes 🙂 ]. And now in an attempt to take my own advice I'm going to leave it...
Vaccine uptake among doctors is at least 90 per cent. Some of the unvaccinated may be exempt, but that still means as many as one in ten scientifically literate medics have not yet taken up immunisation.
“As many as one in ten”, should read “at most one in ten”, surely. And more likely “far fewer than one in ten”, as he has made it clear that it is fewer than 10% who haven’t been vaccinated even when you count those who couldn’t be, rather than have chosen not to be.
Anyone who has posted here who is as yet unvaccinated: what would it take to change your minds?
This lady's not for turning.
This lady’s not for turning.
Question not answered.
“As many as one in ten”, should read “at most one in ten”
Phrased like that because I think he's surprised that any of his colleagues are unvaccinated and musing on this, as in "blimey it's as many as that!" 5% would sound high to me.
As many as one in ten”, should read “at most one in ten”, surely. And more likely “far fewer than one in ten”,
Yeah that makes no sense but then again there is no retort Dr James’ claims of he doesn’t need one as he caught covid. The article covers some good points badly.
This lady’s not for turning.
Genuine question, why not? What kind of evidence would you like to see for you to think that the Covid vaccine was as important as say the Rubela jab, or TB? Or put another way, what's the difference between the two as far as you are concerned?
Message me if you don't want to run the risk of being shouted down on here, I'm interested to learn
Phrased like that because I think he’s surprised that any of his colleagues are unvaccinated and musing on this, as in “blimey it’s as many as that!” 5% would sound high to me.
5% unvaccinated doesn’t sound crazily high to me … but 5% choosing not to be vaccinated would. There are many reasons for exemptions, not least being involved in ongoing vaccination trials (which a lot of doctors have been from the beginning). His “up to one in ten haven’t taken up the vaccine” is loaded and not backed by evidence. So he’s losing my interest quite quickly.
This lady’s not for turning.
That language makes it look like you are proud of your position. But really, pride emotion and sentiment should not be part of it.
Depends on whether you consider it a decision… or a cause.
“Pride, emotion and sentiment” will be present in everyone’s experiences during this pandemic, and the decisions they have made, and the actions they have taken.
But it shouldn't be a personal thing. If you are personally invested in a particular position you're making it hard to change that position. So if new information appears we will find it hard to change our position.
If it turns out that we've all poisoned ourselves with the vaccine and made a terrible mistake, how will you lot all feel? I'm sure there'd be a lot of denial on display for as long as possible.
If the vaccines kill 170,000+ people in the UK in two years, there will be no room for denial.
Well worth watching.
I’m utterly pro vaccines and anything which encourages their uptake, but this kind of challenge makes me want to argue back.
It wasn't meant to be a 'challenge.' It was a genuine question. If you can re-word it I'm all ears.
What would it take to reconsider?
If the answer is "nothing" then rationality has left the building and we're wasting our time even trying.
If you are personally invested in a particular position you’re making it hard to change that position. So if new information appears we will find it hard to change our position.
Precisely. But we're all guilty of it. Fundamentally, people don't like to be wrong. (Again), look at brexit: how many people changed their minds between the referendum and us actually leaving? Some, sure, but not all that many.
Well worth watching.
Why?
Has there? Where?
Here's something about it.
https://eachother.org.uk/were-do-not-resuscitate-orders-illegally-placed-on-disabled-people/
https://www.openaccessgovernment.org/blanket-dnr/122280/
And i could continue referencing sources.
Don't you think thats shocking 😕
Don’t you think thats shocking
I think it's irrelevant to the topic under discussion, if that helps?
I think it’s irrelevant to the topic under discussion, if that helps?
This.
Don’t you think thats shocking
It’s terrible but nothing to with vaccine.
Why?
I only got so far as I’m making the tea. Basically it’s a video interview with a virologist discussing what they’re learnt and how they are adjusting to what they have learnt. The usual YouTube presenter trying to make it sound something it isn’t.
scientifically literate medics
I've suggested before that medically literate ≠ scientifically literate. Practising medics seldom make use of the scientific method.
Cougar asked me to provide evidence on this subject, so i have.
Whether you agree with what its to do with is irrelevant. The address it to cougar and for him to see that in the context of the original question, the answer is there WOO HOO Cougar. He just chose to answer with a query rather than go look for himself.
Clearly he hasn't got time to take off from constructing witty answers. So I've added the links for him to see.
But thanks to Drac, Pondo and monkeyboyjc for their input all the same.
Righto, you three can get back to whatever it was you were discussing. I'm sure your point there would have been valid, I mean it is your point of view, so it must be.
Im sure that there are many decisions that have been, medical, political, by other professional or public body's during the course of the last 2urs that are shocking, disturbing and should be investigated. I'm glad that the report has highlighted this issue and it should be investigated thoroughly. But I can't see a correlation between anything mentioned in the article with anything discussed in this thread?
There you go I, expanded my flippant ditto. Apologies.
Oh for gods sake, dont apologize 😆 What happens in the anti vaxx thread stays in the anti vaxx thread if you know what I mean. Nothing here should be taken that seriously where any of us go into huff mode. I've learned this lesson well from posting in STW.
Always good to have a shouty match where nothing really comes of it and its not like the pub where before you know it fists are flying. blow off some steam, what the absolute hell eh ?.
👍👍
I think we are all of the mind that this thread will continue going around in circles until we eventually rub a small hole into the internet and create a void that only an ebikes could escape from.
As some one said on the last page "XXpages in and not a single mind changed." 😄😄 But the fun is in the trying.
The video I posted highlights that if your main reason for a strong pro-vaccine argument is to protect those that cannot be vaccinated, that argument is negated by the fact that being vaccinated doesn’t prevent you from passing it on. There’s no moral high ground to having the vaccine, only personal protection.
I’ve suggested before that medically literate ≠ scientifically literate. Practising medics seldom make use of the scientific method.
The medical profession are trying hard to move to " evidence based practice" but an awful lot of " we do it this way because thats the way its always been done still exists" but a lot less than it used to be
On a general level evidence based practice is there but on an individual level understanding scientific method is often absent.
For a bunch of vaccinated, pro-vaccine people, there aren't half a load of tired old anti-vax tropes in circulation here. 🙂
The video I posted highlights that if your main reason for a strong pro-vaccine argument is to protect those that cannot be vaccinated, that argument is negated by the fact that being vaccinated doesn’t prevent you from passing it on.
Doesn't stop it - DOES cut the risk of transmission, with the added bonus of also making serious symptoms much less likely, therefore also freeing up hospital resource for the unvaccinated.
There’s no moral high ground to having the vaccine, only personal protection.
Well except that if you are vaccinated, you are less likely to get ill and need hospital treatment, therefore freeing up resources for others.
I'm vaccinated so your family can be treated for their health issues.
You're welcome!
vaccinated doesn’t prevent you from passing it on
No - but it reduces transmission. Well known and well proven so your argument is pure pish. Like the rest of your arguement based on a lack of understanding GIGO
( sorry - been at the vino)
Nothing here should be taken that seriously where any of us go into huff mode.
Well, there’s the thing, this touches lives in serious ways. Your choice of game is odd.
Fundamentally, people don’t like to be wrong
I wonder if this is true and to what degree? Anecdotally I’m most usually happy to be wrong because there is an opportunity to learn. Without being ‘wrong’ how can that opportunity ever arise? Maybe I’m broken, or maybe it isn’t so ‘fundamental’? For whatever reason I’ve a fair few friends who are engineers (and a fair few who are artists and/or teachers) and the pattern I’ve noticed is that the engineers tend to enjoy being wrong, while teachers not so much, and the artists kind of differ either way or else just waive away! Noticed I’m atypical in my family, they mostly despise being wrong. I think that I understand their reasoning ? ie (insecurity, fear of seeming ‘small’ or ‘less knowledgeable’, ego-bruised etc, but I don’t ‘get it’ as such motives seem so senseless and petty/actually ‘small’? People who are open to learning are much more attractive (as people) to me. So I don’t really understand what must be attractive to people who are closed to it?
Sorry for diversion, but this really smashes my brain, especially in these times of mass dis/misinformation/fake shite and partisan posturing. It’s all a bit too much like a Donald ‘doubledown’ Trump vibe for my liking 😬
No – but it reduces transmission. Well known and well proven so your argument is pure pish
Yup, I came out with that one too and was corrected. So (unlike cougar 😉 ) I went off to research that point and found i was mistaken.
So (unlike cougar 😉 ) I went off to research that point and found i was mistaken.
What do you think Cougar's mistaken about?
A lot of folk double down when proved to be in the wrong - a main component of road rage IMo. Call someone out for bad driving and they launch into attack mode because they know they are in the wrong
No – but it reduces transmission.
How people don't know this rattles my brain..... And really just sums up the whole debacle for me.
“Vaccines save lives, reduce severe cases but are less effective against contamination” Cyrrile Cohen, the guy from your vid. Not ineffective but less which is obviously more effective than not doing anything.
As explained above there’s a moral high ground from being vaccinated if you are able to.
You guys still talking about this?
Covid's over.
What do you think Cougar’s mistaken about?
I didn't say he was mistaken about anything :?. I made a quip about not looking for the easy to get research in the DNR story i posted earlier (on page 14)
I said I was mistaken about transmittab...transmitab...transmission rates.
You guys still talking about this?
Have you seen tonights TV 😯 there was a break from arguing yesterday when Boba Fett was on. But we're back to it now 😀
Covid’s over.
Who for? https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths?areaType=overview&areaName=United%20Kingdom
