How would those who support these extreme public health measures
A clean water act that protected citizens against cholera introduced in London in 1852 was considered radical at the time. Now it's taken as a matter of sensible public health policy (about which BTW, you have no individual say). Also as a matter of public health you've probably had some /all (depending on how old you are) of the following vaccines through out your early childhood for which your consent wasn't sought.
At eight weeks - Diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis , polio, Haemophilus influenzae type b and hepatitis B Meningococcal group B Rotavirus gastroenteritis.
At twelve weeks - Diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, polio, Hib and hepatitis B Rotavirus
At sixteen weeks - Diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, polio, MenB
At One year - Hib and MenC Pneumococcal booster MMR MenB.
This is the paradox at the heart of vaccines/public health. You should be able to have a say in what goes into your body vs. As an individual, you shouldn't be allowed to veto sensible public health policy. -i.e. no one is going to ask you how clean you'd like your water...You're being asked to take a vanishingly small risk for the greater public good.
aren’t antivaxxers just middle-aged edgelords?
The conspiracies don’t stop with the vaccine, they normally radiate outwards and diversify. So all of a sudden a middle-aged edge*lord could find themselves battling against communistic pedophile Jewlizard Muslamic Democrat Libtard black gay EUrabian Envirorofacists. Which is a little more than just fighting against Nazism vaccination mandates for healthcare workers.
*Synonyms available. Not necessarily ‘rim’.
Antivaxxers are now scapegoates for the ongoing restrictions which are no longer tenable
A) I don't think anyone really cares that much IRL but it's possible I'm protecting B) what ongoing restrictions?
Various users on here are keen to use the phrase ‘choices have consequence’ towards people who aren’t having this particular vaccine
Yep *waves*
You start going down the mandated vaccine route and where does that end? You lose control over your body to a dubious government with dubious advisors – its a recipe for disaster. 99% of people on here wouldn’t do anything malicious with that power, but there are people out there that would.
It's not mandated,you don't have to have it.
Oh they don’t understand. The staff at the sharp end, the people in which service this is directed at dont understand.
A claimed 80k in an organisation of 1.3 million, isn't it?
Any concerns they have must be ignored because in truth they’re not concerned about the government passing a law that forced medical practices on them,where unless they comply, they’ll lose their jobs. But are all conspiracy theorists.
To be fair, as there's no sound reason for anyone without underlying health issues NOT to have the jab, what other reason would they have for freely choosing to lose their jobs rather than have a harmless jab?
Remember, this was ‘3 weeks to flatten the curve’
Everyone with any sense knew this was complete nonsense at the time.
More than likely not.
Very few are NHS in fact it would seem. Sad little cameo from Danny Rampling in that thread.
Everyone with any sense knew this was complete nonsense at the time.
I distinctly remember having a conversation with about 4 mums outside my shop in the first couple days of lockdown 1 - them saying kids will go back to school after Easter hols / isn't this all jolly etc. All of them middle class and we'll educated.
There were many people that believed or wanted to believe the three weeks to flatten the curve propaganda at the time, the alternative was just too worrying for some people.
So lies propagated from a trusted isn’t acceptable . So what about the manipulation, the lies that and societal ‘nudges’ that have come from the government re covid. Do you think that is acceptable?
I’m sorry what does that even mean?
People have become addicted to Covid – so so sad.
Actually it's my day job. I just comment here.
As for mandated mass public health interventions, one presumes there is a strong correlation with opposition to water treatment, notably fluoridation, (or perhaps even disinfection?). This may be a shock, but agencies do act in the public interest on the basis of evidence.
The ULEZ charge is an economic push to change behaviours for public health. I can choose to drive in the city, but it will currently cost me to do so. Removal of gainful front-line NHS employment without vaccination is the same. I can choose to be vaccinated, or seek other employ. I suspect of the 80k who have not been vaccinated, the number who would rather change jobs is a small fraction of that number. So be it.
and societal ‘nudges’ that have come from the government re covid. Do you think that is acceptable?
This is the same unit that nudge you into thinking about not drinking too much, eating your 5 a day or think about quitting smoking, right?
What's the difference?
^^Blimey, he hasn't aged well has he?
For me, it would likewise be an interesting thought experiment to apply C-19 restrictions but in a different context.
We had massive restrictions in what we could do, to save lives and protect health services. These were eased after we started vaccinating people. The vaccine has removed most of the restrictions. Therefore if you want to not have restrictions you need the vaccine, maybe?
The thing is we all live in a society. That society needs rules so it can function. If you don't want to join in then fine, go and live in a hut on your own in the deep forest. If you do want to join in by traveling about, going to concerts i'r whatever, then you need to follow the rules no?
I can't help but think that this thread and the much wider debate in general would be better served if the following phrases were banned wholesale across the country:
- XXXXX people have died of/with Covid
- I had it and I recovered from it without issue
- Any references that include the words 'cold' and 'flu'
If we did this, we might have a more balanced and insightful debate. As it is, the only thing this thread/debate is really debating is your relative level of agreeableness/neuroticism.
"Forced" needs to be on that list
It’d be a lot easier if anti-vaxxers just turned around and said “sorry, I don’t quite follow the science, can you explain it a bit better to me”. It’s ok not to understand it, I don’t understand quantum mechanics but I’m not going to start saying that it’s made up lies from the government.
The bile they spout just tells us that they’re not as intelligent as they think they are.
“Forced” needs to be on that list
I asgree but we do need to keep the word 'coerced' and 'marginalised' in for fullness of debate. I agree that no one is being 'forced' but it's a subtle difference between force and coercion and that is a very important debate.
It’d be a lot easier if anti-vaxxers just turned around and said “sorry, I don’t quite follow the science,
Very (very) few people do though and I suspect that includes you (as it does me) unless you actually worked on the vaccine itself? This is where the problem lies; the ONLY successful mechanism for rolling out something that no one but those directly involved truly understands, is to make it voluntary. The moment you make it mandatory, either directly or indirectly, you kill confidence.
I've posted once on this thread using flu vaccines to illustrate that a there's a range of take up of vaccines which improve individual and public health, and it's not binary nutters vs sensibles.
I personally see no problem with requiring NHS staff who see patients to be covid vaccinated as long as services don't fall over. My experience is of senior folks who don't see many patients frankly jumping the queue to get vaccinated. But some commentators who I respect (Phil Whitaker, a GP who writes in the New Statesman) take a different view:
So I'll accept there's at least nuance. However, when I see stuff like:
I'd also read the true number of covid deaths
...this is so disingenuous. You "read" - where? But not saying where, as it would be apparent this was instantly debunked, must be deliberately repeating misinformation and deserves no sympathy at all.
the ONLY successful mechanism for rolling out something that no one but those directly involved truly understands, is to make it voluntary.
Hi, yeah - it, err, IS voluntary. But still there are angry and intimidating protests outside vaccination centres, schools and hospitals.
I’d also read that the true number of Covid deaths was just shy of 18k over 2 years
And I also read that the death rate is in fact much higher than reported based on number of deaths over 2 years over average. Especially so in less transparent countries.
The moment you make it mandatory, either directly or indirectly, you kill confidence.
It’s not mandatory.
It’s not mandatory.
I know. But thanks for reiterating the point.
There are place in the world where it is and i guess some people are worried that if it could happen there it could happen here. There is also the problem that whilst not mandatory, general sentiment (as expressed on this thread for example), is very disparraging to those who question the wisdom of the vaccine.
Honestly the level of hostility and rudeness (from both sides) displayed on this thread is the thing we should be most concerned about.
And I also read that the death rate is in fact much higher than reported based on number of deaths over 2 years over average. Especially so in less transparent countries.
The ONS figure for those with Covid as a cause on a death certificate is over 174,000 I think, so higher than the "within 28 days" total that we see on the news.
The 18,000 number has been soundly and competently called out by various people, with links on this and the other thread to it.
Ignorance is bliss eh?
They have concerns.
What concerns are they?
Why don't we address those concerns rather than going "oh, alright then" and cowtowing to them? This is how we got brexit.
the most vulnerable groups (such as my sister, parents) are thankfully now vaccinated against.
The most vulnerable groups cannot be vaccinated.
Are we learning yet?
Where I live, one cannot engage with significant parts of public life if one is not vaccinated, which I am not (I’m not antivaxx but am not convinced of the need to have one
You've just answered your own question there.
Why are you so convinced of your need not to have one?
I know. But thanks for reiterating the point.
There are place in the world where it is and i guess some people are worried that if it could happen there it could happen here.
You’re welcome we’ll stop when people stop claiming it is. Well yes there is but they’re you know a different country with a poor uptake. Telling people it’s mandatory when it’s not isn’t going to help.
Honestly the level of hostility and rudeness (from both sides) displayed on this thread is the thing we should be most concerned about.
Covid's been ongoing for almost two years now, the debate around vaccination for over twelve months, and you have my apology for my rudeness but I am sick to death of having to repeat the bleeding obvious over and again.
Honestly the level of hostility and rudeness (from both sides) displayed on this thread is the thing we should be most concerned about.
I totally agree, really, but you post this (below), knowing that a contributor to this thread has lost 2 members of his family to Covid. It's one of the most deliberately nasty comments I've seen posted on this thread or the other.
– My [insert family related noun here] died of Covid
but I am sick to death of having to repeat the bleeding obvious over and again.
So don't do it - just accept that some people don't agree with you and leave it at that. I think the problem becomes most vexxed when you adopt a position of having to convince someone you're right/they're wrong (this is something I've struggled with myself and have learnt to let go of the hard way!)
i guess some people are worried that if it could happen there it could happen here.
But it isn't. It just isn't. You might as well worry about a zombie apocalypse, it's simply whataboutery.
general sentiment (as expressed on this thread for example), is very disparraging to those who question the wisdom of the vaccine.
You haven't been paying attention.
No-one is being "disparraging to those who question the wisdom of the vaccine." Questioning is good. Questioning is how we learn things. More people should be questioning.
The thing with asking questions though is that you then have to be prepared to listen to answers. When ignorance turns into wilful ignorance, that's when they're gonna get disparaged.
So don’t do it – just accept that some people don’t agree with you and leave it at that.
If their decision only affected themselves, we would. But it doesn't.
I totally agree, really, but you post this (below), knowing that a contributor to this thread has lost 2 members of his family to Covid. It’s one of the most deliberately nasty comments I’ve seen posted on this thread or the other.
WHAT?
Are you serious? Everyone on this forum has lost someone to something! I was simply making the point that a) a death from Covid is like all other deaths - tragic and deeply sadenning for those who were close to the individual and b) that you lost someone to Covid does not make your view on Covid or the vaccine any more valid than anyone else's. If you're going to take exception to even highlighting that fact that's not something I'm going to reasonably be able to anticipate!
If their decision only affected themselves, we would. But it doesn’t.
No true but then their (the anti vaxxers) counter argument to that is equally as valid and based on the same premise; you cannot know for sure that the vaccine is harmelss just like you cannot know that the lock down didn't also result in significant deaths.
... though, y'know, at the risk of drawing parallels to brexit a second time,
The anti-vax brigade and their "I'm not anti-vax but..." apologists have already come to their conclusions. Nothing we can do or say will change that. (Will it?)
Fifteen pages in. Minds changed: zero.
WHAT?
Are you serious?
Incredible lack of empathy and focus.
I'm not talking about Covid, I'm talking about twisting a knife into someone.
It's horrible, unnecessary and seemingly deliberate.
b) that you lost someone to Covid does not make your view on Covid or the vaccine any more valid than anyone else’s.
If the counter-argument is "it's just like the flu" or "I had it and I was fine" or "the real death toll is 37" or the rest of the utter bollocks being trotted out then I rather think it does.
Thought I'd take us back to the op's questions.
are we seeing a sensible approach, or a lot of political and personal feelings getting in the way of the current situation?
Yes on both sides.
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> but with the lifting of restrictions and hospitalisation being down and manageable, is it really fair to punish personal choice in this manner?</span>
Yes and no in my view - if you work in the nhs (in any form), but don't trust the methods of NHS, then maybe work for someone or something that you do trust. Just my personal feelings 😄
It's almost like the anti-vaxxers want to make it mandatoy NOT to have a vaccine, with thier picketing and intimidation at schools and health centers.
What do they care if someone chooses to be vaccinated? It's no skin off thier nose?
Oh that's right, they can't cope with anyone dissagreeing with them, what was I thinking. 😉
WHAT?
Are you serious? Everyone on this forum has lost someone to something! I was simply making the point that a) a death from Covid is like all other deaths
I see that you misspelled “oh gosh, I’m sorry for your loss”.
Had you replied in such a manner, I might be more sympathetic to your viewpoint.
Unfortunately, you chose to come across as a boorish sociopath, so I ask that you avoid further forum interaction with me.
Very (very) few people do though and I suspect that includes you (as it does me) unless you actually worked on the vaccine itself?
I listen to the people who do know, though.
When Brian Cox comes on telly with facts about the universe, I don't shout at him going 'HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS? WHERE'S THE EVIDENCE? WHO MADE YOU THE BOSS?', I go 'wow that's interesting, he knows more about physics than me'. Because he does.
general sentiment (as expressed on this thread for example), is very disparraging to those who question the wisdom of the vaccine.
There is disparagement on here yes, but really, if you're going to cherry pick bits and pieces in an attempt to justify your sentimental position (which really fundamentally probably is that you don't like the idea of a jab) and one that may well harm a great many people, whilst ignoring all the large body of stuff that doesn't give you the answer that you want - you can expect a hard time.
Here are a few things to think about when you next have a bored moment.
What is humanity?
What does your life mean?
What do other people's lives mean to you?
What is society?
What should society be?
What is your place in society?
What is the place of scientists in society?
What should the role of government be in society?
So don’t do it – just accept that some people don’t agree with you and leave it at that. I think the problem becomes most vexxed when you adopt a position of having to convince someone you’re right/they’re wrong (this is something I’ve struggled with myself and have learnt to let go of the hard way!)
Irony is, of course, that you've chosen to join this debate. Just to echo the thoughts from earlier, if we were talking about, I dunno, the merits of 26" vs 29", or whether Sheeran's better than Ezra, or whether urban camo gear is the schiz, then year, only an idiot would get riled. What we've got here is a global healthcare issue, from my point of view a group of people are acting in a dangerous and selfish manner, we're having the same debate over and over and over again, and you're saying either be polite or ignore them.
Nah. 🙂
just accept that some people don’t agree with you and leave it at that
But in this case, there is a wrong answer, and people are actually suffering and even dying.
A quick Google finds this:
In summary:
Vaccination requirements for all health care students
(e.g.Nursing, Midwifery, Paramedics, ODP, Physiotherapy, Occupational Therapy & Social Work
Requirements Immunity status/immunisation details Action on commencement
Tuberculosis (TB) (1) Tuberculosis (TB) Documentary evidence of BCG vaccination
Measles and Rubella Documentary evidence of 2 doses of MMR (measles, mumps and rubella) triple vaccine or Measles IgG blood test Rubella Antibody blood test
If non-immune then 2 doses of MMR vaccine will be given
Hepatitis B (2) · Documentation of vaccination history including dates of vaccination Booster doses will be given if due.
Chickenpox (varicella zoster virus)
Positive history of disease in UK or in northern hemisphere VZV IgG blood test
Uncertain history or history of Chicken Pox in Southern Hemisphere then a blood test is required. If non-immune 2 doses of VZV vaccine will be given.
Hepatitis C Antibody blood test
Hepatitis B** surface Antigen blood test
If you know that you will have a positive result to the above tests and your course requires EPP’s you should discuss with occupational health (in confidence) prior to your final choice of
course/speciality.
Routine childhood
immunisations (UK schedule)
Diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus and polio, meningitis Check that childhood immunisations are up
to date
So there are already Mandatory vaccinations for frontline healthcare workers. All they have done is add another to the list.
Really, what is the problem?
