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Other than the numbers involved and the direct method of removal of people, there is little difference between the two.
So you mean other than the actual details there's little to choose between them. Fair enough.
If the Israelis were the same as the Nazi-era Germans, they'd have taken ALL of Palestine, purged every single undesirable from the area and effectively enslaved the rest. The rhetoric on this issue is sky-high as it is, not sure exaggeration brings anything to the argument. I'm no supporter of Israel, far from it, but maybe a cut on hyperbole would help the argument a little or at least make it less polarised.
maybe a cut on hyperbole would help the argument a little or at least make it less polarised.
Maybe have a word with this charming character then:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effi_Eitam
Eitam has called Israeli Arabs a "cancer": "[T]he Israeli Arabs are in large measure the ticking bomb beneath the whole democratic Israeli order inside the [1967] Green Line. Even today, in the Galilee and the Negev, a de facto autonomy of theirs is being created, which could in practice turn Israel into the bubble of Metropolitan Tel Aviv .… Therefore, I say that the State of Israel today faces an existential threat that is characterized by being an elusive threat, and elusive threats by their nature resemble cancer. Cancer is a type of illness in which most of the people who die from it die because they were diagnosed too late. By the time you grasp the size of the threat, it is already too late to deal with it.".[11] Commenting on this, the veteran Israeli journalist, Akiva Eldar, wrote in Haaretz, "The fact that the Nazis were especially fond of this [cancer] metaphor is probably not lost on the general." [12] In 2004, Eitam called the Palestinians "dark forces" and said "We will have to kill them all" [13]
Eitam has used the concept of Lebensraum as the basis for his arguments that all Arabs and Palestinians should be persuaded or forced to leave Israel and the Palestinian Territories.[14]
^ Graham, Stephen (2004). Cities, War and Terrorism: Towards an Urban Geopolitics (Studies in Urban and Social Change). Wiley-Blackwell. pp. 204. ISBN 1405115750. "Eitam argues that, ultimately, Israel should strive to force or 'persuade' all Arabs and Palestinians to leave Israel and the occupied territories -- to be accommodated in Jordan and the Sinai (Egypt).....Eitam has even explicitly used the German concept of Lebensraum (living space) – a cornerstone of the Holocaust -- to underpin his arguments."
Oh come on. If all you did was post quotes from extremist nutters on both sides of the debate you'd be here for weeks posting nothing but bollocks. Plenty of Israelis and Palestinians (and their respective supporters) advocate the absolute destruction of the other in terms that invoke the holocaust. Doesn't mean you have to.
I can see why folk make comaprisons with the nazis but it is ott
It does seem like they [ humans in general seem guilty of this] have leanrt nothing from history and it is hard to argue that they are not persecuting the palestinians a sthey were for centuries - driven from their homes [1948] and banned etc.
Shameful for humanity whatever the religious view is
I shall leave you to the hyperbole
Mikeoconnor you need to raise your game. you find one quote from a has-been religeious extremist that was once in the knesset, and another from you're 'jewish friend' a that's how you make your case? Your bringing about as much to this debate as deadlydarcy. You both need to spend more time on your bike imho.
Junkyard. - you should at least keep up the pretense of being objective. can you really see why 'folk make the comparisons with nazis' or are you just being nice to mike? I had a little hope for you, but now am not so sure.
you don't need to say that israel has a right to exist to satisfy me. Any reasonable person would take that for granted. The point is that [b]Hamas [/b]need to think that. Because until they do, there is no one for Israel to talk to vis a viz gaza. Hamas refuse to talk to any representative of Israel, as they simply don't recognize them.
And its not that Palestine 'could attack' - they did attack. the fact is that they blew up an army Jeep on the israel side of the border, and then fired ~50 rockets into israel's south [b]before[/b] Jabri was targeted. Yes, maybe Israel could have ignored those 50 rockets... Well, they ignored the first 10, then the second 10 and so on. in fact, they've ignored thousands of them over the past 7 years.. and so? has it bought them closer to peace? - no. they need to talk. But they can't talk, because Hamas wont talk.
Your historical narrative is flawed, but nevertheless the jist of your argument seems to follow. something like: [i]'The Palestinians have been abused since 1948 by Israel, and therefore even though it may not be right, we should expect them to try to blow up Israeli civilians'[/i]
I mean correct me if i missed something in all your sarcastic waffle, but isn't that basically it?
sorry, that's a sh*t argument.
Here's mine:
Israel needs to stop building on disputed land. [b]Hamas need to recognize Israel[/b]. Fatah and Hamas need to agree on common objections. Israel has a right to try to stop the rockets fire from Gaza taking necessary precautions to protect civilians. Zero rocket fired should be rewarded by appropriate relaxation of security measures. Those are the preconditions for being able to start negotiations.
oh.. and Hamas need to admit that fajr5 is a stupid name for a rocket.
Incidentally, thanks for complementing my put down. i can assure u thats 100% original- post ride creativity i think.
samj - Member
But they can't talk, because Hamas wont talk.
Wasn't Ahmed al-Jabari one of Hamas' negotiators and isn't it alleged that he had truce papers (for discussion/negotiation?) in his possession at the time of the missile attack?
Genuine question - I don't know.
JY - I smiled and thought of you when I read this today:
I guess if you keep using sticks to poke at the Nile crocodile then the result will be inevitable ...
There you go poking at the crocodile ...[img] 
[/img]
teamhurtmore,
I think someone posted a link to an article on that above. Clearly no one knows for what he had in his possession. I'm sure that there are also argument that israel had been plotting this in retaliation for Gilat shalit abduction for a while.
The truth is, there have been a number of informal truces between Israel and Hamas which periodically stops the rocket fire (there was one after cast lead, there will surely be one after the current round) - these are generally done via an intermediary.
And while these provide temporary respite, they dont get to the heart of the matter. - which is that the only long term solution is for Hamas to acknowledge Israel's right to exist..
The following is a quote from Hamas charter for example. (my bold)
..the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. [b]For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion[/b]
ie its all or nothing.
Thats the problem. Its at the heart of what they stand for..
Israel needs to stop building on disputed land. Hamas need to recognize Israel. Fatah and Hamas need to agree on common objections. Israel has a right to try to stop the rockets fire from Gaza taking necessary precautions to protect civilians. Zero rocket fired should be rewarded by appropriate relaxation of security measures. Those are the preconditions for being able to start negotiations.
What tactics do you think Hamas/the Palestinians should use in order to stop their land/water supplies being further annexed - and how successful do you think they will be?
What tactics do you think Hamas/the Palestinians should use in order to stop their land/water supplies being further annexed - and how successful do you think they will be?
As i've said, and you've quoted. Hamas need to recognize Israel, Fatah and Hamas need to agree on common objectives.
This is a pre-requesite for any hope of peaceful success. I think they will be far more successful this way than by armed resistance which hasn't done them any favors till now and has led to unnecessary loss of civilian lives.
one more for JY et al:
Its on Cast lead, though not much has changed...
Your historical narrative is flawed, but nevertheless the jist of your argument seems to follow. something like: 'The Palestinians have been abused since 1948 by Israel, and therefore even though it may not be right, we should expect them to try to blow up Israeli civilians'I mean correct me if i missed something in all your sarcastic waffle, but isn't that basically it?
sorry, that's a sh*t argument.
You know you have missed something but if that is what you are going to do and just say bias at me I really dont see the point in debate - would you prefer i call you names and call your view waffle and shit?
Its an emotive issue but I have no desire to add to the collective hate here and start insulting one another so you can have your one sided insults - no doubt you think you are provoked and only being defensive and protecting yourself 😉
PS Is it your view that if a country was treated like this by another - lets use Spain and Portugal as I did earlier - they would not have armed resistance against said country? No resistance movement, no increase in extremism etc
Now that is a shit argument.
JY - I smiled and thought of you when I read this today:
I think it makes a fair point re bias tbh [ i missed the report which is most unlike me - sometimes i forget to switch the radio back on after i have switched it off for thought for the day.
We have to accept that Hamas is attacking Israel in reports - neither side is a pargon here. We also have to accept that Israel attacks are far more deadly than Hamas ones and it will always get more coverage because it is more deadly
I suppose i could have asked if Hamas had paused overnight as it may actually be technically true and then i could be the biased character neutral sanj suggests I am
Been trying to find a table I saw on twitter yesterday that showed major offensives against Gaza and how they coincided with the re-election of the government in Israel. Will try and find it today.
edit:
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Mikeoconnor you need to raise your game. you find one quote from a has-been religeious extremist that was once in the knesset, and another from you're 'jewish friend' a that's how you make your case? Your bringing about as much to this debate as deadlydarcy. You both need to spend more time on your bike imho.
so, because we say things you don't like, we shouldn't be part of the discussion then? Why? Do you not like your views being challenged? And why do you put 'Jewish friend' in quotes? What are you suggesting?
The sentiments regarding 'lebensraum' aren't exlusive to Effi Eitam. The term has been used by many commentators on the Palestinian situation, as well as other expansionist policies employed by other nations elsewhere. It's simply a word, and fits this situation extremely well. I could quite easily just speak of expansionism and it would seem less contentious, and perhaps i am being provocative by using such an expression, but the fundamental philosophy remains the same. Israel is invading it's neighbour and driving the inhabitants out. This is simply a fact.
Much is spoken of the angry and violent rhetoric used by Hamas; not enough is being said about the vitriol being spouted by certain figures in Israel.
Interior Minister Eli Yishai said Operation Pillar of Defense would continue and likely be expanded, a reference to the possibility that a ground offensive has already been given the go-ahead.
The war in Gaza “must be so painful and difficult that the terror groups will not think twice but a hundred times before they fire missiles against Israel again,” it was reported in The Israel National News.
“Destroy and damage infrastructure, public buildings and government buildings. We must make sure that Hamas will be spending many years rebuilding Gaza, and not attacking Israel,” he continued.
A few days ago he said, “The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages, only then will Israel be calm for the next 40 years.”
His words were relatively mild compared to some of the comments that have been coming out of Israel in recent days.
Journalist, Gilad Sharon, the son of former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, in an editorial in the Jerusalem Post on Sunday called for Gaza to be flattened like the US flattened the Japanese city of Hiroshima in 1945 with an atomic bomb.
“We need to flatten all of Gaza. The American’s didn’t stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough – so they hit Nagasaki too. There should be no electricity in Gaza, no gasoline or moving vehicles, nothing. Then they’d really call for a ceasefire,” ranted Sharon.
As the former Prime Minister’s son publicly urged the military to wipe Gaza off the map, a member of the Knesset and the National Unity Party, Michael Ben-Ari, called for Israeli soldiers to kill Gazans without thought or mercy.
“There are no innocents in Gaza, don’t let any diplomats who want to look good in the world endanger your lives – mow them down!” it was reported on the Hakol HaYehudi website.
He also told soldiers to ignore Goldstone; in reference to the UN commissioned Goldstone report on Israel’s 2008-2009 invasion of Gaza, which found evidence of war crimes and crimes against humanity.
Israel Katz, the country’s transport minister, has called “for Gaza to be bombed so hard the population has to flee into Egypt.” While Avi Dichter, the minster of home front defense, has urged the IDF to “reformat” Gaza – to wipe it clean with bombs.
so, it's not just 'has been religious extremeists' who are spouting such bile, but some very powerful and dangerous figures.
http://rt.com/news/israel-gaza-hamas-war-103/
But of course; it's Hamas who are the agressors, against a nation with massive military superiority and nuclear (as well as chemical and biological) weapons capability. Obviously.
The war in Gaza “must be so painful and difficult that the terror groups will not think twice but a hundred times before they fire missiles against Israel again,” it was reported in The Israel National News.
“Destroy and damage infrastructure, public buildings and government buildings. We must make sure that Hamas will be spending many years rebuilding Gaza, and not attacking Israel,” he continued.
A few days ago he said, “The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages, only then will Israel be calm for the next 40 years.”
It is terrible to see the most persecuted race in history [ well probably] get a state and then become the most persecuting state in recent history[ probably]
It says something trully terrible about the human condition and this saddens me.
To be fair samj, you read just like I'd expect a Zionist to read. You have a certain point of view based on your view that Israel is merely defending itself, and you appear to discount (just two examples) land grabbing and disproportionate "retaliation" (inverted commas there because let's face it, though of course you won't, a lot of Israel's actions aren't retaliative at all) as beside the point, like somehow they don't matter...and that Israel's right to exist must be paramount and recognised by whoever is under their jackboot.
No matter what point of view is put to you, you come back to the same set of Zionistic principles. So I dunno fella...what's the point in "debating" with you at all? You blindly support a nation which is in breach of god knows how many UN resolutions and acts as the neighbourhood bully by dint of its unstinting support by the US, who surprisingly don't appear to pay much attention to the UN either.
I am perfectly aware of the differences between "Jewishness", "Zionism" and "Israel", but how a country that is supposedly a haven from persecution, then persecutes those who it doesn't see as fitting in with its expansionist policies is beyond my understanding. The comparisons to Naziism and the Holocaust are of course hyperbolic - but that they're used at all should make Israelis and Zionists both wake up a bit.
Sorry if my thorough distaste for you and your type is "not bringing much to the debate", but there you go. Most of the world hates what Israel is doing. And for good reason. But of course, they're all naive and uninformed aren't they?
how a country that is supposedly a haven from persecution, then persecutes those who it doesn't see as fitting in with its expansionist policies is beyond my understanding.
The abused go on to become the abuser - sadly pretty common.
You blindly support a nation which is in breach of god knows how many UN resolutions and acts as the neighbourhood bully by dint of its unstinting support by the US, who surprisingly don't appear to pay much attention to the UN either.
Ah yes but the UN resolutions are all part of an anti-semitic conspiracy within the UN, apparently. Because as we know anyone who ever criticises anything to do with Israel is a rabid anti-semite.
The abused go on to become the abuser - sadly pretty common.
Aye, too true grummybear, but in this case, it really takes that statement to a new level.
Most of the world hates what Israel is doing. And for good reason. But of course, they're all naive and uninformed aren't they?
No, not uninformed. Misinformed, and Naive -Yes, because it's easy to feel good with yourselves about sympathizing with the palestinian's plight than to engage your mind and think beyond 'the nasty aggressive Israel and the poor helpless Palestinians'
Because as we know anyone who ever criticises anything to do with Israel is a rabid anti-semite
not necessarily. but do you seriously think this problem would get as much attention if Gaza was full of Sunni Arabs, and Israel full of Shias?
Do you even have an opinion on the situation in Syria? where are all the emotive forum arguments on that?! Daily summary executions, certain army attacks on civilians and a death toll of what? 15,000+ .. Arabs killing Arabs. very sad, but jews killing arabs.. an outrage! always a headline... its the 'persecuted doing the persecuting'...its 'nazism'! Yes all very proportional.
so, it's not just 'has been religious extremists' who are spouting such bile, but some very powerful and dangerous figures.
Yes, you are right. but they are still the minority. However hawkish some of those comments, the government was not elected on a platform to flatten Gaza, and the overwhelming majority of israelis dont want that. Hamas on the other hand has the destruction of Israel and the reclamation of all land from Jordan to the Mediterranean as its founding principle.
JY - fair play to your debating point above. you have your opinion, and it certainly seems to have more support than mine here at any rate! I agree that no side is a paragon, but i don't agree in your historical analysis, and i do think the vast majority of the blame for the current situation lies with the PA / Arab leagues mismanagement of the situation.
This guy sums it up quite well from my pov.
but of course, you all knew what 'my type' had to say about that already...
🙂
not necessarily. but do you seriously think this problem would get as much attention if Gaza was full of Sunni Arabs, and Israel full of Shias?
Do you even have an opinion on the situation in Syria? where are all the emotive forum arguments on that?! Daily summary executions, certain army attacks on civilians and a death toll of what? 15,000+ .. Arabs killing Arabs. very sad, but jews killing arabs.. an outrage! always a headline... its the 'persecuted doing the persecuting'...its 'nazism'! Yes all very proportional.
Yes I think what is happening in Syria is awful, but it had plenty of media attention in the early stages, sadly it seems the news organisations got bored. Anything seen as 'internal' or civil war seems to get less attention. There has been plenty of discussion of it on here btw.
The other main difference is that Syria isn't a close ally of the west that receives millions and millions of dollars in military aid (AFAIK?), and Syria isn't constantly and loudly claiming to be an enlightened, modern democratic state that values the principles of human rights.
Has Syria ever invaded and occupied foreign territory? Do they have a 'secret' nuclear bomb, while vociferously arguing against anyone else in the region being allowed them, while also going around murdering foreign scientists? Does Syria shamelessly invoke a past atrocity to justify their current illegal and immoral behaviour, and accuse anyone that criticises them of being racists? Does Syria have extremely powerful and well funded lobbyists exerting their influence on western governments?
You might find some of those are reasons why Israel gets more attention than Syria.
Thanks for your posts on this samj. Nice to read a different point of view rather than the usual attention seekers. Good work fella.
🙄
Misinformed, and Naive -Yes, because it's easy to feel good with yourselves about sympathizing with the palestinian's plight than to engage your mind and think beyond 'the nasty aggressive Israel and the poor helpless Palestinians'
Normally, I'd say this was staggering in its presumptuousness, but I'm not surprised at all.
And as for bloodynora's post, wot richc said.
Thank you bloodynora.
grum: exactly. Israel has a 'secret' nuclear bomb. On the other hand (the making of) Iran's bomb is not so secret as they have already publicly threatened several times to 'wipe israel of the face of the map' with it!
Are you surprised they argue vociferously against it? Is that your moral equality? The fact the equivalent of the entire jewish population of israel had been wiped out just 3 generations ago is, i think , a justified reason to be concerned, and not some 'shameless' excuse to act in a certain way.
and about those well funded lobbyists.. you think the 1.5 billion Arabs that are sitting on most of the world's oil supplies pushing the Arab league agenda don't have any power?
Or is it possible that some people in western administrations have come to similar conclusions without being bought out?
I would have expected nothing less (/ more) from you deadlydarcy 🙂
concerned
They have a fairly disproportionate way of showing their "concern".
samj--what of the israeli opposition to this thuggery ?
On the other hand (the making of) Iran's bomb is not so secret as they have already publicly threatened several times to 'wipe israel of the face of the map' with it!
Not that old chestnut. Quotes/sources please?
The fact the equivalent of the entire jewish population of israel had been wiped out just 3 generations ago is, i think , a justified reason to be concerned, and not some 'shameless' excuse to act in a certain way.
Past abuses, awful as they are, are no excuse for carrying out current and future ones. You really don't believe the holocaust is ever cynically utilised by hawkish Israeli politicians to bolster their position? You're very naive if so
And yes, people expect better behaviour from a supposedly democratic modern state with close ties to the west, that claims to value human rights, than they do from Iran or Syria. You should probably be glad of that.
Yes, well done Samj, its good to see another point of view than the usual suspects, please dont give up as I am enjoying your contribution to this thread.
Its amazing how many personal beliefs people will put aside to position themselves in one camp very opposed to a the majority of their own political leanings, really does bring out the complexity and entrenched opinions people have on this matter, its going to take a politician or leader of Ghandi proportions on either side to put an end to this madness.
I would have to agree with Samj.
Yeah me too ^^
Oh dear are we really reduced to using Pat Condell videos as evidence of anything?
I'd like to see some of you (apart from samj) actually discuss any of the points of this argument, rather than just linking to YouTube videos of ranty bigots slagging off Muslims, and saying 'yeah I agree'.
Oh dear are we really reduced to using Pat Condell videos as evidence of anything?
I actually thought it was put up as some kind of ironoclasmic thing. Tell me it was wasn't it?
British 'diplomacy' had a big hand in setting this up in 1948 did it not ??
Rudeboy yes British diplomacy and Jewish terrorism murdering soldiers and civilians with gay abandon.
And yes, people expect better behaviour from a supposedly democratic modern state with close ties to the west, that claims to value human rights, than they do from Iran or Syria. You should probably be glad of that.
Grum, have you thought that one through? you seem to imply that people would be more accepting of Israel's actions if it were less democratic and cared less for human rights. Is it more acceptable to you that the extremists to want to 'flatten gaza' because they are extremists. Come on..you can't have it both ways.
And this may come as a suprise, but no, i am not 'glad' of the [b]double standards[/b] you describe. That is one of the central points in this thread. Why is it that a daily bombing of civillian populations in Syria 'bores' the news agencies...that there are never any pictures of ambulances and injured children when a bomb goes off in a market stall in Iraq, or a high street in Afghanistan, but we are inundated with these images almost immediately & continuously from Gaza? Is it only because there is no foreign media allowed in Syria? That there are no people with smart phones standing relaying the pics to news agencies hungry to broadcast them? - And why do you think that is? - think about it.
Do you think there is no injustice in these places, no arguments over land or religeon in the Arab world? Do you have any knowledge of the scale of loss of life historically in land related disputes between Sunnis/ Shias, other Arab sects? Ask yourself why the only thing you have to say about the situation in Syria is that it's 'tragic' but you have SO much to say on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict
You cannot excuse these countries because they dont claim to care about human rights. On the contrary, that is precicely where you should be focusing your attention & energy if abuse of human rights is your concern.
samj - bang on the money!
Sorry, been lurking until the above. Samj; can you actually demonstrate/link us to any IDF action that is proportionate? I doubt it. By dint of the fact that your military action is pretty much "Extreme" why is anybody who thinks that is naive and misinformed? Israel has previous for destroying residential areas simply because they were not slums (Cast Lead),just as detailed in the posts above. Having first claimed that they had missiles launched from them..funny that their was no smartphone or media coverage of that,or any evidence...
- And why do you think that is? - think about it.
So again,explain to me why the extremists are not in the driving seat. At least Hamas are open about their objectives. Israel has EXACTLY the same plan for Palestine,and are going about it far more successfully than Hamas.
Link from Twitter, but spookily accurate
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Duckman, i posted this link above w.r.t cast lead. I think you might agree this guy is not your typical israeli extremist. he just happens to have spent more time studying the facts, and less time forming an opinion based on the bbc's coverage.
Here's an idea, cut all foreign aid to Israel, especially from the states. Force Israel back to the original 1947 partition lines, and by force i mean bulldoze all settlements and clear the land, make Israel pay to return it to a suitable state so that the former palestinian owners can rebuild on it and if they overstep the mark again, as they are likely to do by slowly creeping forward whilst mumbling about their past persecution (but we're not allowed to question the deaths are we?) then the UN can roll in with tanks and bulldozers and airstrikes against the Zionist state till they get the message.
Job done, everyones happy - thread closed.
Although it wouldn't work quite as easily as that, i realise that many palestinians have sold land to the Israelis and there is a great many sympathetic Israelis who want no part in what the Zionists do in the name of a Jewish state.
It'd be a start though and a level playing field, well it would be after the bulldozers have passed through.
The Telegraph Aug 21 2012
"President Ahmadinejad, despite recent comments that the
Zionist regime was a cancerous tumour which would soon be
"wiped out""
Do you think President Ahmadinejad has had such a pleasant summer that he's changed his mind on this?
Israel has long been concerned about Iran having Nuclear weapons.
Do Israel have them? Sure. But when have they threatened another country with wiping them out? Bear in mind Israel has had this since prob mid 60's and are there as a last resort bearing in mind the neighbours they've got.
When have Syria invaded another country? 1948 & 1973. Israel would have been invaded by them for a third time in 1967 had it not been for the pre-emptive strikes.
Agree with Samj here. It is tragic that there is Muslim killing Muslim in other parts of the world. However as soon as Israel gets involved it is at the forefront of media attention. More so, the media does not give a monkeys about my point near the start of this post that 700 rockets had been fired from Gaza against Israel in 2012 (prior to last week) and 2500 since 2009. When did that make News at Ten?
you give any monkey matches and he will learn to light them, the cynic in me wonders whose benefit are these 'conflicts'-- Arms industry- big big business- a third of the US economy is arms based-- sure they are happy to see their 'products' being used.I do not believe that these conflicts are solvable until there is regime change in most if not all the protagonists.
Is it only because there is no foreign media allowed in Syria?
Thankfully, they're allowed into Gaza, and still reporting despite Israel trying to blow the shit out of one of the media buildings.
And as for your last post samj, yep, it's a pisser that the media has got bored of Syria, but it doesn't make Israel's [b][i]disproportionate[/i][/b]* responses any more acceptable.
*Emphasis there for your benefit as you seem to conveniently continually ignore the disproportionality of the Zionist responses.