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Amongst all the critics, the one thing I don't hear so much of is what would you do if you were in Israel's shoes being fired at by Hamas who make no bones about their charter which is Israel's destruction.
Israel has made peace with former enemies - Egypt & Jordan and although these are in reality a cold peace, especially the former, it shows Israel has in the past at least shown the capacity to make concessions and strike a peace deal. However that requires a willing partner and Hamas can not to date be descirbed as that.
And yes, people expect better behaviour from a supposedly democratic modern state with close ties to the west, that claims to value human rights, than they do from Iran or Syria. You should probably be glad of that.
Grum, have you thought that one through? you seem to imply that people would be more accepting of Israel's actions if it were less democratic and cared less for human rights. Is it more acceptable to you that the extremists to want to 'flatten gaza' because they are extremists. Come on..you can't have it both ways.
He implies no such think and it takes a gymnastic level of mental distortions to suggest he does. He suggest that we expect despots/dictators and the undemocratic to be poorer about human rights than we expect democracies to be. FFS you cannot actually disagree with that statement- do western democracies respect human rights better than Iraq Syria.China etc. Its not implying that at all.
I thought you were arguing well if somewhat entrenched but that is tragic and desperate - you cannot actually think that is what he meant as you are clearly not stupid.
Thanks for a rant on other countries and NO mention of Israel on a thread about Israel.
On the other hand (the making of) Iran's bomb is not so secret as they have already publicly threatened several times to 'wipe israel of the face of the map' with it!Not that old chestnut. Quotes/sources please?
I notice you didn't answer this bit.
Also, it's not double standards to expect better from a country that is democratic, a close ally of the west, and constantly and loudly shouts about their commitment to human rights than you would from a totalitarian dictator. That would be pretty obvious if you weren't constantly looking to play the anti semitism card. It's Israel that can't have it both ways - wanting to be seen as a modern, enlightened, democratic nation, while acting as a rogue state.
All the 'whataboutery' in the world doesn't make what Israel is doing right. And yes, Hamas are probably good at media management - still doesn't make what Israel is doing right.
Amongst all the critics, the one thing I don't hear so much of is what would you do if you were in Israel's shoes being fired at by Hamas who make no bones about their charter which is Israel's destruction.Israel has made peace with former enemies - Egypt & Jordan and although these are in reality a cold peace, especially the former, it shows Israel has in the past at least shown the capacity to make concessions and strike a peace deal. However that requires a willing partner and Hamas can not to date be described as that.
Dismantle all the illegal settlements and give the Palestinians back their land? Stop treating them as second class citizens, destroying their homes, taking their water, ruining their livelihoods? That would be a start.
Agreed, the settlements need to cease. Israel vaccated Gaza in 2005 but hasn't had the desired effect.
Let the Palestinians see that they have something to gain from peace.
Perhaps even help them with economic aid to rebuild their state and try and build peace
A hearts and minds operation is the only way to secure peace for the long run and whatever you think of the current actions they wont win hearts and minds but will turn hearts and minds to hatred , extremism and opposition.
Perhaps offer all the land back if they recognise israel and her right to exist - do you think israel would actually do this
Let all the people return as per the resolution from 1948 and lots lots more
it will be a difficult road that will have huge risks. i doubt a Ghandi on either side would get any /much political support as both sides are so deeply entrenched in their positions
it will not be easy but to keep repeating the current events - attacking every time they have an election - any comment on that sanj?- is unlikely to lead to a lasting peace - any comment on that sanj ?
Again i dont support the bombings by Palestinians but any country treated like that will have "armed resistance" and extremism- if spain did this to portugal for example we would get violence from the Portugeses
Some serious bargaining where by israel gets the peace it wants but gives back the lands it has taken.
I doubt it will happen unless the western democracies and the US in particular decree it and the Arab allies decree it on the palestinians.
I shant hold my breath
never before has a middle of the road pot smoking comedy actor been more poignant..
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Yunki- that right, but how to change the system is the biggie !
The system is basically only good for a small minority, and that at the expense of every other poor sod,the limited resources and quite possibly the rest of the creatures that inhabit this place
Well skipped sanj....Why is it you have such good sources of information, but anybody who disagrees with the Israeli action on this thread is misled by the BBC news? Not full of yourself are you?
Again; what in Israel's actions in any conflict suggests that the Extremists are not in control?
And all for Lebenstraum...oh the ironing!
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He implies no such thing and it takes a gymnastic level of mental distortions to suggest he does
Actually all it takes just a little bit of mental application, which it seems is too much to ask from most of the people here.
How about this one.. this might be a bit harder, but try a little bit this time:
Strictly in resonse to DD's proportionality argument, by analogy - Imagine that someone is swinging an axe at your head repeatedly. He missed the first time. would you try to talk him out of it, or shoot him with your gun? Do we need to add in the point that he has sworn to continue swinging until he actually hits you to affect your response? Now, repeat the experiment 1000 times. are the results proportional? what if you put the axe swinger amongst a group of people -how would that affect the proportionality?
And what have we been debating? Not one of you has put a serious suggestion on the table for 'how do we talk the axe swinger out of it' ? - you are obsessed with complaining that the axe swinger doesnt have a gun.. or arguing how unfair it is that other person has the gun, or that the US gave it to them. Or, JY, that its natural that the axe swinger would do that.
A higher death rate on both sides - that is your proportionality. That is far more appealing to your sense of justice than asking difficult questions.. the Palestinains deserve there revenge given all there suffering - right Junkyard?. If you want a real reason to 'despair of the human condition' you have only to read your own posts, and that of the majority of others.
The real reason why Syria is off the news agenda is that a level playing field just doesnt do it for the lazy minded. never mind that the mutual massacre there is off the scale in terms of numbers - there is nothing for you to get angry about there easily.
The Israel/Palestinan conflict is far more appealing to you.. Theres a 'bad guy', and a 'good guy', and it's easier for you all to gasp and say 'wow look how unjust that is' so you can think you are doing your bit fo the good of humanity without having to challenge your own thinking (/prejudices) in any way.
I've been trying to keep an open mind while reading this thread..
I don't know a great deal about the situation, and certainly don't hold a strong opinion on it.. I'm always sceptical of the easy/popular viewpoint, so it interested me to hear samj's arguments..
all that I can conclude from this thread, particularly that last post, is that samj is a bit of a psychopath
thanks yunki. maybe you should stick to posting pretty pictures.
aye.. you're probably right, perhaps I'm not seeing the bigger picture here.. 🙄
Sorry, but your analogy over-simplifies the situation. I'm fairly sure you realise that already though.
As an analogy I think it's fairly spot on actually
[quote=somafunk]but we're not allowed to question the deaths are we?
You're not suggesting somehow that the holocaust was some sort of zionist confidence trick are you?
And what have we been debating? Not one of you has put a serious suggestion on the table for 'how do we talk the axe swinger out of it' ?
Give the Palestinians back their land, stop killing them, building illegal settlements and treating them as second class citizens - already suggested that. Seems unlikely though doesn't it.
Your tenuous analogy works the other way round just as well/badly by the way.
And again, whether it not Israel gets a disproportionate amount of criticism doesn't make what they are doing right. And constantly crying anti-semitist conspiracy only helps further racism by conflating Israeli abuses with Judaism. You still haven't provided the quotes where Iran has repeatedly said they want a nuke to wipe Israel off the map btw.
samj,
That analogy might work.
If in your given situation, the "axe swinger" is a four year old boy.
And the axe you talk about is a plastic toy one.
But he's swinging it in anger 'cos you've already shot his older sister and younger cousin for living in the same house.
And you shoot him anyway.
And you shoot him anyway.
and every other kid in the playground just to be sure.. and their families..
Actually all it takes just a little bit of mental application, which it seems is too much to ask from most of the people here.How about this one.. this might be a bit harder, but try a little bit this time:
There is only so much patronising/ad hominems i can take, its getting a bit childish 🙄
Strictly in resonse to DD's proportionality argument, by analogy - Imagine that someone is swinging an axe at your head repeatedly. He missed the first time. would you try to talk him out of it, or shoot him with your gun? Do we need to add in the point that he has sworn to continue swinging until he actually hits you to affect your response? Now, repeat the experiment 1000 times. are the results proportional? what if you put the axe swinger amongst a group of people -how would that affect the proportionality?
Imagine you are in their house when they are swinging the axe at you?
does your example still work?
And what have we been debating? Not one of you has put a serious suggestion on the table for 'how do we talk the axe swinger out of it' ? - you are obsessed with complaining that the axe swinger doesnt have a gun.. or arguing how unfair it is that other person has the gun, or that the US gave it to them. Or, JY, that its natural that the axe swinger would do that.
I cant speak for the others but i was rather hoping you would explain why this would not actually happen - i keep asking you as i am the hopeful type
the Palestinains deserve there revenge given all there suffering - right Junkyard?.
straw man argument - poor. I say it inevitable i dont defend it,condone it or suggest they can do whatever the hell they like to the axe swinger as that will be fair unlike some.
If you want a real reason to 'despair of the human condition' you have only to read your own posts, and that of the majority of others.
I think , like Israel, you may just be winning hearts and minds with this approach. have you considered more reasoning and less of this bile?
The Israel/Palestinan conflict is far more appealing to you.. Theres a 'bad guy', and a 'good guy', and it's easier for you all to gasp and say 'wow look how unjust that is' so you can think you are doing your bit fo the good of humanity without having to challenge your own thinking (/prejudices) in any way.
You are not very good at understanding people arguments are you ?
There are no good guys and bad guys in this only bad guys and suffering. the issue is how to get a solution again , for I remain optimistic you will answer rather than insult or misrepresent my view, could you explain to me how Israels current behaviour leads to peace and does not inevitably lead to conflict [ which is bad whoever perpetrates it]. You can uses axes iin your example as you seem to have a few left to grind
Grum - I don't think Samj mentioned anti-semitism?
As for the quote, per my post above:
The Telegraph Aug 21 2012
"President Ahmadinejad, despite recent comments that the
Zionist regime was a cancerous tumour which would soon be
"wiped out""
Imagine you are in their house when they are swinging the axe at you?
does your example still work?
Doffs cap to J-Y.
And to loum.
Imagine you are in their house when they are swinging the axe at you?
does your example still work?
Yes. though strictly (and this is not an analogy) they are now operating from amongst the houses built by Israelis in Gaza who were withdrawn from them in 2005 in order to try to advance the peace process.
the issue is how to get a solution again , for I remain optimistic you will answer
Quite right. I have already offered you a answer in point form quite some way above. And nim has given you an example of where historically peace was actually achieved in this context, which you discarded outright without so much as even trying to address...
You have offered nothing, other than the 'inevitablility of it all'
I suggest you scroll up re-read and try again.
You have offered nothing, other than the 'inevitablility of it all'
Well done you misrepresented my view once more.
I suggest you scroll up re-read and try again.
Oh and some patronising.
Really why can you not just discuss without this ?
Its a fail at the answering the question though you claimed you have
you are TJ and I claim my £5
Ps the question was actually
could you explain to me how Israels current behaviour leads to peace and does not inevitably lead to conflict [ which is bad whoever perpetrates it].
but i shall refrain from insults.
Grum - I don't think Samj mentioned anti-semitism?
As for the quote, per my post above:
The Telegraph Aug 21 2012
"President Ahmadinejad, despite recent comments that the
Zionist regime was a cancerous tumour which would soon be
"wiped out""
He hasn't specifically but he's alluding to some kind of unfair treatment of Israel with nefarious motivations, and it's an argument often trotted out by Israeli spokesmen.
Calling for the destruction of the Zionist regime is hardly the same as calling for genocide of all Israelis is it, there's a crucial difference. And Ahmedinajad has specifically said that's not what he meant.
you are TJ and I claim my £5
Guffaw that is simply priceless 😆
I'm not sure who is TJ, but perhaps you can use your fiver to get him to explain to you that peace involves the actions of two parties, not one.
In the mean time, keep giving each other 'Doff Caps' and enjoy agreeing with one another in your 'debate' 😀
Could you explain to me how Israels current actions are going to lead to peace rather than inevitably lead to this?get him to explain to you that peace involves the actions of two parties, not one.
You cannot because anyone can see it wont lead to peace even you.
You would need to answer this for it to be a debate rather than just you doing petty insults.
PSA moral maze Radio 4 on this very issue- morals and ethics on this conflict
Could you explain to me how Israels current actions are going to lead to peace rather than inevitably lead to this?
Well, their [u]current[/u] actions seem to involve a ceasefire.
Lets see who breaks it first 😐
In the mean time, keep giving each other 'Doff Caps' and enjoy agreeing with one another in your 'debate'
You seemed quite pleased with your own little doffs from other posters. Sometimes someone articulates what one is about to say. I consider it good manners to credit that poster with a wee thanks. Call it being a good neighbour if you like. Though, I'm guessing Zionists don't really get that concept.
In the mean time, keep giving each other 'Doff Caps' and enjoy agreeing with one another in your 'debate'
Quite a few people have agreed with you, but of course that doesn't fit with the 'everyone's against us' narrative we hear so often.
samj - Member
I'm not sure who is TJ, but perhaps you can use your fiver to get him to explain to you that peace involves the actions of two parties, not one.In the mean time, keep giving each other 'Doff Caps' and enjoy agreeing with one another in your 'debate'
POSTED 1 HOUR AGO #
And you keep avoiding awkward questions while claiming the rest of us are misinformed...while supporting a Holocaust (Greek for great burning;rather appropriate for troops that use Phosphorous,or did that not really happen to the UN compound and I am misinformed)
You're not suggesting somehow that the holocaust was some sort of zionist confidence trick are you?
Not at all, i was merely pointing out the rather disturbing fact that you/we/I are not allowed by law (Holocaust denial) to question the actual number of jewish deaths directly attributed to the Nazi's indefensible use of concentration or death camps dependant on your point of view.
I was taught by my parents to make my own mind up and come to my own conclusions, thus i got into serious trouble at one school i attended for questioning the actual number of deaths directly attributed to the nazi's persecution of the jewish race - long boring story but all i wanted to know was why aren't you allowed to question the actual number of deaths?, why is taken for granted and no further investigation or questioning is allowed?.
I consider it good manners to credit that poster with a wee thanks. Call it being a good neighbour if you like. Though, I'm guessing Zionists don't really get that concept.
Chuckles and doffs cap
Not at all, i was merely pointing out the rather disturbing fact that you/we/I are not allowed by law (Holocaust denial) to question the actual number of jewish deaths directly attributed to the Nazi's indefensible use of concentration or death camps dependant on your point of view.
I don't think holocaust denial is illegal in this country - it is in a few other European countries though.
Keep it up samj... great to see you winding the usual suspects up..... doffs cap 😉
Ah, there you are again bloodynora.
Feel free to make your own sensible point anytime. There's a first time for everything. Or just be samj's little lapdog. I dunno, it's up to you.
EDIT: At least samj comes and argues his point. Not sure he's being a WUM - you'd probably know more about that kind of thing yourself though.
Could you explain to me how Israels current actions are going to lead to peace rather than inevitably lead to this?You cannot because anyone can see it wont lead to peace even you.
Junkyard, I've already explained to you that Israel's current actions (prior to the ceasefire) was a natural reaction to continuous rocket fire. and that peace, like agreement, involves [i]two[/i] sides. and that part of that agreement means Hamas formally recognizing Israels right to exist.
Now,... you, explain to me, how your actions will lead to [i]our[/i] agreement, and not more disagreement.
'You cannot can you? - 'because anyone ('even you') can see it wont lead to [i]our[/i] agreement without me!'
Is it clearer for you now?
Is that still avoiding your awkward question?
Is the metaphor not realistic enough for you? or is it just too patronizing..
..And once the penny drops for deadlydarcy and your other cohorts, and you stop eating your own 'doff caps' -hehe, i like this 'doff caps', i'll keep using it! 🙂 -, we'll all have to suffer the next round of misguided attempts at insightful wit/observations re the nasty nature of the Zionist regime.. which, sadly is about as predictable as the next round of Hamas rockets..
oh, and get your fiver back from TJ, as I've clearly had to do explain anyway..or maybe i am him after all?!
guffaws & chuckles all round ?!! - doubt it.
😀
actually, 'attempts at insightful wit/observations is far too generous'. I think 'bile' is the term you used. Much more appropriate - i'll borrow that one too..;P
Your last couple of posts are showing your frustrations. It's like you're trying to convince yourself now. To be fair, being a Zionist is a tough one. Most people just don't like you. So I can understand your reactions, ad hominems, patronising tone. (Disproportionality is nothing new to you is it?). But don't go turning into a WUM now...and just tell us who you really are.
Anyway, because you continually refuse to accept it, let me once again correct you:
Junkyard, I've already explained to you that Israel's current actions (prior to the ceasefire) was a [s]natural[/s] [b]disproportionate[/b] reaction
It's like banging one's head against a brick wall. And let's face it, you'd know all about walls wouldn't you?
Got anymore of those clever analogies until tyger, bloodynora etc come and jerk you off again?
tyger, bloodynora etc come and jerk you off again?
I agree with all your posts Darcy and I will be free from approx 8pm tonight.
Somafunk; As a history teacher; we arrive at the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust by using the following data;
Jews in a number of countries had to carry id cards; a huge number/most of these people were missing after the war.
Census records.
The numbers killed by advancing German "special action" groups,especially in the Baltic countries. The Nazi troops involved in these were tried after the war.
Witness statements given to evidence gatherers for the N'berg trails.
The quantity of Zyklon b manufactured.
Cargo/train capacity to the various camps.
Nazi records.
Now...after the war Europe was in a state of flux. If you were Jewish why would you return to the town where your neighbours had pointed you out? This will have made the total missing extremely hard to collate with 100% accuracy. Yad Vashem has 4 million names of victims compiled for certain.Hilleberg(?)estimates that 3 million Jews* died in camps alone.Factor in the camps fairly late arrival and it is easy to accept the fact most modern studies are now putting the total at 5.2 million to 5.75million, which is close enough to the original total.
* And a million Blacks, Gays,Jehovahs witnesses,American servicemen,Gypsies, priests and anybody who put a lie to the idea of the Slavs being "untermensch"
..And once the penny drops for deadlydarcy and your other cohorts, and you stop eating your own 'doff caps' -hehe, i like this 'doff caps', i'll keep using it! -, we'll all have to suffer the next round of misguided attempts at insightful wit/observations re the nasty nature of the Zionist regime.. which, sadly is about as predictable as the next round of Hamas rockets..
I notice you've given up on even attempting to answer any questions or debate any points (like how you've still failed to back up your claim that Iran has threatened to nuke Israel), and are just reverting to 'it's not fair, you're all bastards, waaaaaaa!'. A familiar tactic of Israeli spokesmen when they don't have an argument.
I've already explained to you that Israel's current actions (prior to the ceasefire) was a natural reaction to continuous rocket fire. and that peace,
But i keep asking this and this is what you need to explain - could you at least try preety please with a doff cap on top?
could you explain to me how Israels current behaviour [ this includes tgh eland grabs, the embargo, the walls , the seiges , the assinations etc]leads to peace and does not inevitably lead to conflict [ which is bad whoever perpetrates it].
Its still clear that you will not answer the questionIs it clearer for you now?
Obvioulsy yes - why are you asking?Is that still avoiding your awkward question?
Is the metaphor not realistic enough for you? or is it just too patronizing
Yawn I am not interested in childishly trading insults despite your repeated kind efforts to provoke a reaction, Have I been provoked enough yet to bomb your house and kill your pplitical leaders?
I notice you only ever reference Hamas and palestinians actions. It is inevitable whilst the regime acts like this Yes - I await you explaining why this is not the case but I really have given up hopewe'll all have to suffer the next round of misguided attempts at insightful wit/observations re the nasty nature of the Zionist regime.. which, sadly is about as predictable as the next round of Hamas rockets..
It is clear to anyone reading this that you have not answered the question and nor will you as we all know it will not lead to peace no matte rhow pro Israel or anti we may consider each other to be.
In fact it is so clear it wont you cannot even attempt a defence so you pretend you have whilst offering insults
From BBC News website...
"A number of rockets were fired from Hamas in Gaza in the first few hours of the truce, but Israel did not respond".
Who's the agressor?