[Closed] Another cyclist killed by an HGV in London

martymac - Member

for the record, i work for stagecoach in dunfermline, if i hit someone on a bike i would most likely be sacked, regardless of whether the police charged me or not.

You should come and work for Stagecoach in Cambridgeshire; they're not at all phased by something as minor as running over a cyclist. 😀

Lots of the HGVs in London are delivering big heavy things to the numerous building sites, many of which are operated around the clock.

Have seen some which have a spoken warning when indicating left at slow speeds (similar to the "vehicle reversing" ones) to discourage cyclists to pass them up the inside. Even with that, and warning signs, and the education efforts of LCC and the rest, I still see plenty of people put themselves in harm's way.

Can't help feeling the "beat the traffic" / "save time on your commute" promotion by pro-cycling groups leads to a feeling of entitlement with many London cyclists, who HAVE to get to the front of every queue regardless of whether it's a good idea. I often hang back where I see a big risk for only a second or two of gain, and usually have someone barge past regardless. ASLs are a good idea in some ways, but the feeder path on the left (often squeezed to a tiny strip) only encourages this idea, even if the traffic is about to move away.

GrahamS - Member

Another example showing that lorry incidents are not just silly cyclists who position themselves up the inside of lorries:

(warning: contains some quite understandable swearing)

clucking bell that was close.

What can you do to minimise the risk of that? Bit further into the middle of the road is all i can think of? Bloody terrifying.

The thing with ASLs is that you are [url= https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bzho2RYpC3VudG9BeFBINXVid3M/edit ]only LEGALLY allowed to enter the box via the feeder lane[/url], which is usually on the left. So they not only actively encourage bad position - they legally enforce it!

http://thecyclingsilk.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/metropolitan-police-letter-to-cyclists.html

What can you do to minimise the risk of that? Bit further into the middle of the road is all i can think of? Bloody terrifying.

Not much that I can think of. I don't think being further out would have helped there as it started of as a good overtake (in terms of distance from the bike at least).

I guess the only thing he could possibly have done was look further ahead than the truck driver was doing, seen blind bend and the oncoming car and hit the brakes!

feeling of entitlement with many London cyclists

Its not these people getting killed!! Its generally females, obeying the law, stopping at red lights and doing nothing wrong...

This negative stereotype thats its usually the cyclists fault is precisely why Boris will not put pressure on the haulage companies to have cameras/sensors fitted, the perception is that the cyclists are responsible, when the reality is the opposite.

e.g.
http://lcc.org.uk/articles/lorry-driver-serial-killer-of-london-cyclist-and-pedestrian-pleads-guilty

heres another example....

@ sbob, im aware that not all depots take such a hard line, but i believe it focuses the mind knowing you will be sacked.

@grahamS, thats precisely why i make sure im right at the kerb when i stop, if anyone wants to ride up the side of my bus they have to do it on the offside, which has the best view for me.

Here is an example of a pretty nice camera system that [i]could[/i] be fitted to buses and lorries to give complete blindspot coverage on one easy to check screen:

Any good reason why something like that isn't a legal requirement on large dangerous vehicles with massive blind spots?

The thing with ASLs is that you are only LEGALLY allowed to enter the box via the feeder lane,

(And the times I've ventured my motorbike onto an ASL to allow the bikes behind onto it, THEY weren't allowed on there anyway cos they didn't approach from the right place!! Well, never again! 😆 )

grahamS, thats precisely why i make sure im right at the kerb when i stop

Yep, seems like a sensible plan - though I suspect if I was following you and we pulled up at lights that had just turned red then I'd be a bit pissed off that I couldn't get up the left to the ASL when there was plenty of time to do so.

I guess it is a bit like cyclists taking the primary and annoying motorists by "deliberately getting in the way".

Buses blocking ASLs was actually raised at the last meeting of the local cycle campaign here so next time I see them I will point out that some drivers are doing that deliberately for our benefit. A little education and explanation goes a long way.

How did this non-idea get implemented all over the country!?

Probably the same way lots of cycle schemes do - they seem a good idea to non-cyclists.

Any good reason why something like that isn't a legal requirement on large dangerous vehicles with massive blind spots?

So an ASL across 3 lanes must be entered from the left, then anyone wanting to set off from the right must ride 90 degrees across the front of the queue (dodging round other cycles that got there first)?

Yup!

Worse than that there are a number of ASLs around without any feeder lane (or the new diagonal lines indicating a "cycle entry point") so there is no way for cyclists to legally use them!

e.g.

http://goo.gl/maps/5SqG5
http://goo.gl/maps/Ul7Lm
http://goo.gl/maps/438E1
http://goo.gl/maps/UY2rs
http://goo.gl/maps/GqZFj

(As pointed out by an observant commenter on Cycling Silk's blog)

retro83 - Member

What can you do to minimise the risk of that? Bit further into the middle of the road is all i can think of? Bloody terrifying.

Bit further out, try and make eye contact with driver. In that instance the cyclist probably could have got on the brakes, he didn't appear to slow at all, and I would be constantly checking behind for overtaking vehicles.
Of course, the flatbed driver was 100% to blame, the overtake was not on.
The police need to see that footage, I'd wager that it would be enough for a conviction.

It looks like it works well on a double decker, however, it wouldn't work so well on lower vehicles, or on artics or any other vehicle with a trailer

Here it is on an HGV:

And a large trailer:

I believe it is even available as an option on some cars (Audis I think?)

ASL's with feeder lanes here seem OK. But there are a few differences.
Firstly the multi lane ones tend to have bike traffic light which go green before that for traffic.
Secondly, when turning right here (so left there), the pedestrian crossing (and also bike lane) is also green, so any motorised vehicle can't just turn right. It enforces a look in the mirrors, and in cars/on motorbikes, a look over shoulder in to the blind spot, AND look for not what is beside you, but what is 10-20-30meters behind still approaching the junction.
Thirdly, all the ASL feeders have a dedicated induction loop specially for bikes (maybe UK have that? dunno). And they do work. I've never failed to trigger one.

I think that's the answer - implemented properly they're a good idea. But we don't get properly implemented ones, we get them done on the cheap by people who don't ride bikes, so they end up more dangerous than not having one.

[i]"Here it is on an HGV:"[/i]
I wasn't trying to dismiss the idea, it's just that a double decker is the ideal vehicle for this system.
Many trailers are hired, so until these cameras become compulsory with a standard connection between truck and trailer, I can't see the idea catching on.

[i]"Someone pointed out to me a while back that workplace health and safety regulations mean that most of the trucks and lorries on our roads would not be permitted to operate at a place of work in the same conditions (i.e. surrounded by squishy people with no way to see them). They'd need all sorts of cameras, sensors and alarms, otherwise the operating company could be found negligent"[/i]

I've long thought along similar lines.
We've got a 5mph speed limit in the bus depot, one way system, no reversing without a banksman and all pedestrians to wear hi-viz and keep to walkways.
Once the buses go out the gate though, they are straight in to a 30mph three lane free for all.

Many trailers are hired, so until these cameras become compulsory with a standard connection between truck and trailer, I can't see the idea catching on.

Mmmm that is an issue. I suspect making the system wireless would take care of the connection issue pretty neatly.

But the main issue is cost. Many companies simply won't fit these systems unless they are forced to do so.

They know that currently, even if one of their drivers did kill someone, the company itself would be very unlikely to face criminal proceedings or pay damages. If there is no impact on the bottom line then they have no motivation to change things.

The City of London Corporation are trying to help the situation but, as far as I know, they are in the minority. They currently offer subsidised training for cyclists but, more importantly, have made it a requirement of any contractor/haulier undertaking work for them to have vehicles fitted with an approved warning system to notify the driver of cyclists/pedestrians in their blind spots.

It's in its early stages but it's a start and, hopefully, others like TFL will follow suit.

Worse than that there are a number of ASLs around without any feeder lane (or the new diagonal lines indicating a "cycle entry point") so there is no way for cyclists to legally use them!

e.g.

http://goo.gl/maps/5SqG5

The legality of that one is very similar to this one local to me http://goo.gl/maps/6kHRB - it is actually legal to enter via the chevrons with a broken line, which you're allowed to enter when "it is necessary and you can see that it is safe to do so." Clearly the necessity is provided by wanting to access the ASL!

Though just the other side of the same junction they get round the issue by not having a stop line before the box! http://goo.gl/maps/n0K31

Which does remind me I was thinking just earlier today when coming back from my ride to see a car stopped in the further away box in the second streetview, I see a car stopped in one or other of those boxes almost every time I use that junction. Worth remembering for next time some motorist complains about cyclists breaking the law.

The legality of that one is very similar to this one local to me http://goo.gl/maps/6kHRB - it is actually legal to enter via the chevrons with a broken line,

But if you actually come up the cycle lane in that one then you can't legally enter the ASL?

Lovely design 😀

Worth remembering for next time some motorist complains about cyclists breaking the law.

Yep - I believe it is actually the same offence as red light jumping as they are failing to stop at the stop line 😀

But if you actually come up the cycle lane in that one then you can't legally enter the ASL?

You can enter the ASL the bike lane feeds into, just not the right hand turn one. But you shouldn't be anywhere near the bike lane if you're turning right (it only starts at the same point the right turn lane starts) - apart from anything else you need to ride over the sensors in the right turn lane to trip the lights - yes they do detect bikes, whenever they stop doing so the council gets a fault report from mr aracer 😉

Though having mentioned cars breaking the law, is anybody actually bothered about whether or not they enter an ASL box legally?

As a motorcyclist who spent over 10 years commuting in/around London I always aimed to enter the ASL from the right. And if any trucks were around made sure I kept out of their way.

And IME, the standard way to ride (and live) is to assume everyone else is on a mission to kill you. Only that way will you ride with the neccessary caution (look and pause) and aggression (road positioning and general 'body' language).

I just assume that everyone is 100% blind. Once I was driven into from behind, actually sat in a queue (narrow two lane one-way road). The driver was looking at traffic in the right lane, saw them move and went forward. Our lane wasn't moving... And this wasn't some cycle or moped, but a faired 1000cc M/C with me in day-glo.

We know incentivising or setting staff sales targets in financial services results in people taking risks and miselling, so the regulators restrict this practise.

Truck drivers, multi drop van drivers , coach an bus drivers all have either expectations placed on them which if they don't achieve will have consequences for their jobs or are incentivised to do more for reward. The result is there normal behaviour being influenced to detriment of other road users.

Regulate those contracts = improved safety.

And IME, the standard way to ride (and live) is to assume everyone else is on a mission to kill you.

This ^^

It's standard advice for riding a motorbike and applies equally if not more so to cycling.

It's good advice but I don't think all accidents are avoidable [i]just[/i] by using that premise.

Looking at the video earlier for example, the cyclist was doing pretty much all the right things and still nearly got squashed by that trailer.

[i]It's good advice but I don't think all accidents are avoidable just by using that premise.

Looking at the video earlier for example, the cyclist was doing pretty much all the right things and still nearly got squashed by that trailer. [/i]

But he didn't. What he should've done is either hopped onto the pavement or slowed down once he realised it was an artic.

Its a 'mindset'.

A bit like when ever I'm on a plane/train/bus. The first thing I do after sitting down is look for the exits, and what might stop me getting there. Its not that I think I'm in Final Destination, just that I use to fly 2-3 per week and watched a programme where they studied a plane crash and those that did (and didn't) survive.

I also do it in restaurants, mainly to ensure I can always catch the eye of the waiter - but my wife reckons' its so I can see the assassins 😉

As a motorcyclist who spent over 10 years commuting in/around London I always aimed to enter the ASL from the right

Of course, as a motorcyclist you shouldn't be stopped in the ASL anyway unless the lights changed as you went over the first stop line.

Sounds like the police really don't give a toss though!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jul/29/cycling-advance-stop-line

[i]Of course, as a motorcyclist you shouldn't be stopped in the ASL anyway unless the lights changed as you went over the first stop line.[/i]

We are just as vunerable as a cyclist, so I'll take my chance with the law - and tbh never heard of a m/c having a problem using them.

I've never heard of a car having trouble using them!

What he should've done is either hopped onto the pavement or slowed down once he realised it was an artic.

Mmmm.. not everyone has the skillz to bunny hop a road bike sideways.

And I don't think you can realistically slam on the brakes every time a large vehicle overtakes. The time between it turning from a good overtake to a deadly one is a matter of a second or two.

 

We are just as vunerable as a cyclist, so I'll take my chance with the law - and tbh never heard of a m/c having a problem using them.

In that case, can I make a polite request that you are behind those of us on cycles so we don't have to breathe your exhaust fumes!

[i]And I don't think you can realistically slam on the brakes every time a large vehicle overtakes. The time between it turning from a good overtake to a deadly one is a matter of a second or two. [/i]

Why, no good been dead right...

GrahamS - Member

And I don't think you can realistically slam on the brakes every time a large vehicle overtakes. The time between it turning from a good overtake to a deadly one is a matter of a second or two.

You can see the opposing car from about 10 secs into the video, the cyclist almost gets squished about 8-9 seconds later.
Even if the cyclist had headphones blasting and hadn't looked to see the lorry coming up, he still had at least four seconds where he could have slowed.
That's a lot of time to react.
It's unfortunate he didn't read the situation better, and extremely fortunate that the lorry driver didn't kill him.
He needs to lose his licence.

He needs to lose his licence.

Yeah, but we all know in reality even if it had been a police car coming the other way he would have been unlikely to even get points on his licence. After all he didn't actually hit the cyclist, so it must be OK.

Saw this. Truly trsgic.

The construction project i work on (in the west end) has contracted all hauliers visiting to have, cameras, side proximity alarms and 360 mirror coverage.

I take great pleasure in sending them away when they turn up without.

Side proximity alarms should now be compulsory as they are so cheap and easy for a fitter to put on.

Been following this thread with interest as I'm learning to drive a HGV at the moment (non-artic). A few points to raise:

The truck I'm learning in has that multi-camera system that gives you an all-round view. Works great until it rains, at which point all the cameras get covered in spray and you can't see jack.

The view you get from the mirrors lets you see very little. You have to concentrate fully every second you are driving. Incredibly easy to not see a cyclist nip up the inside of you at a junction.

The cab is usually suspended separately from the chassis, meaning you don't feel things like clipping a kerb easily. Running over an unseen cyclist would not even register.

This is not having a go at anyone above, but it does make you realise that when cycling you really should be cautious about your positioning. I already gave lorries and buses a wide berth on my commute, now I play it safe every time. Better to end up 30 second late than dead.

Another one today 🙁 Tipper lorry again...

[img] [/img]

The next pic on twitter was this, HGV driving into ASL where a cyclist was already waiting...
https://twitter.com/cliveoconnell/status/325236527170990080

The view you get from the mirrors lets you see very little. You have to concentrate fully every second you are driving. Incredibly easy to not see a cyclist [i]nip up the inside of you at a junction[/i].

No nipping. No no no no no. 😥

I was a HGV 1 driver for nearly twenty years, after moving down south and getting a few jobs delivering heavy plant to sites in central London I sacked it off, retrained and did something else..
When its busy it feels like you're driving through a swarm of bees and without banning large vehicles during the day I can't see a practical solution, cameras and mirrors help but as said above they're not infallible,
Londons too big, too busy, and the roads aren't big enough for everyone..

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12985494 ]BBC Link[/url]
Thankfully not fatal but looks really bad - something needs to be done.
RM.

something needs to be done.

I assume you've heard of the London Lorry Control Scheme. Vehicles over 18t banned between 21:00 & 07:00 weekdays & weekends between Sat 12:00 and Monday 07:00. First started by Ken Livingstone in the 80s.
Tesco would love to service their stores at night but local restrictions curb this significantly

The first thing that needs to be done, is sort out the tipper trucks.
if you look at the height of the bumpers, lack of side bars, and distance away from the wheels of the spray guards. They are a lot different to a normal hgv, meaning its a lot easier to go under, or be pulled into the wheels.
Also, they all work on bonus schemes, encouraging them to drive faster and take more risks. This is supposed to be illegal, but....

Oddly out in the sticks where I commute its mostly tippers that pass me
And they are far better than the normal large Artic ones

Has anyone mentioned cyclist training yet? Obviously not all accidents are cyclists fault, but some are. If you could get one message out to urban cyclists it would be don't cut up the inside of trucks.

If you could get one message out to urban cyclists it would be don't cut up the inside of trucks.

Absolutely. I'm pretty sure the Boris bikes actually have diagrams on the handlebars telling people not to do that. Doesn't stop people though, I saw one chap on a Boris squeezing up the left side of a bus in Piccadilly on Tuesday. I could only watch in disbelief. Luckily there weren't any barriers so he could have got up onto the pavement, but even so.

If you could get one message out to urban cyclists it would be don't cut up the inside of trucks.

just show that youtube video, or wherever it was, as a nationwide advert - the one that showed a lorries blind spots and where he could see the cyclist from.

A few cyclists will still be killed courtesy of Darwinian evolution though (like the ones that don't ride with lights).