Forum menu
Ernie, your arguments have gone from the nonsensical to the deranged now.
Military Order 101 is a travesty, but it applies in the West Bank not Gaza because Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. In Gaza, it’s Hamas that suppresses peaceful protests.
Next you will be claiming that Gaza isn't "occupied", which is what the Israeli government claims.
The United Nations considers Gaza to be under occupation because Israel controls everything that goes in and out.
The fact that the IDF can't make day to day arrests in Gaza because they don't have permanent troops on the ground is utterly irrelevant, Military Order 101 applies to the whole of Occupied Palestine.
It specifically bans Palestinians from engaging in peaceful protests.
And btw you can sling as many personal insults as you fancy, it won't make one iota of difference, I will continue to express support the Palestinian people. In fact I find it quite reassuring that you feel the need to resort to insults.
You could have made exactly the same point without resorting to insults - just pointed out that the IDF can't make arrests in Gaza so no military orders can be implemented, but presumably you felt the insults would somehow silence me. It won't.
Never mind the arguing on here over pithy little verbal spats. There's a horrendous humanitarian crisis going on in Gaza right now. No power, gas, water, safe shelter, no aid, very little medical help with shocking battlefield injuries suffered by civilians under the constant threat of extreme military prejudice. Watched by the world's media, with the support of Western governments. How have we come to this, again. Not a question, a condemnation. I have no skin in the game personally, but I'm so angry and ashamed.
It's not surprising the world breeds extremists seeking revenge.
It’s not surprising the world breeds extremists seeking revenge
I fear that after this has ended, with Israel declaring it's 'victory' extremist revenge will go on for years after in the form of suicide attacks.
Injured on the Palestinian side currently around 4000+ . So from that we can infer that the vast majority of those are Palestinian families, brought about by Israel's indiscriminate bombing campaign, with a high degree of women and children.
Israel will class all of those as terrorists, or well tough luck or 'human shields' even though that phrase is meaningless.
Its up to the world now to force sanctions on Israel and maybe put an end to this deliberate targeting of Palestinian families as an act of revenge. For that to happen the people must force their leaders to take a stand and condemn Israel publicly.
It’s not surprising the world breeds extremists seeking revenge.
You are completely misunderstanding Hamas. They are Islamists first and foremost who believe God will take almighty vengeance on the Jews when the apocalypse comes. It's not about revenge it's about bringing about the end of days. If this starts a regional conflagration that's job done for them regardless of how many die.
I think it's almost impossible for secular people to understand how religious extremists think. When they talk about all the righteous end of days stuff and martyrdom they really, really mean it.
Its up to the world now to force sanctions on Israel and maybe put an end to this deliberate targeting of Palestinian families as an act of revenge. For that to happen the people must force their leaders to take a stand and condemn Israel publicly.
Certainly in the UK it is actually going the other way. The Labour Party, which in all likelihood will form the next UK government, has never in its entire history been more intolerant for criticism of Israel.
Despite Israel being the most right-wing that it has ever been.
Talk of sanctions on Israel on social media, as you just have, would very likely result in you being accused of anti-semitism and expelled from the Labour Party if you were a member.
The Labour Party has specifically banned any accusation of Israel being an apartheid state at its current party conference. Despite the fact that that is exactly what the United Nations considers Israel to be.
Never has that level of intolerance ever existed before. I find it both deeply depressing and frankly quite scary.
Although on the plus side it shows just how desperate things have become for the pro-Israel lobby that they want/need to completely silence any meaningful debate concerning Palestine.
The tide is turning.
Never mind the arguing on here over pithy little verbal spats. There’s a horrendous humanitarian crisis going on in Gaza right now
This. If you’ve not seen it, then watch the footage from inside Gaza on channel 4 news. It’s absolutely horrendous! The Israelis have just completely levelled entire areas of Gaza City. That’s not ‘targeted’, it’s utterly indiscriminate. It may or may not be hitting Hamas targets but it’s wiping out countless innocent men women and children in the process. And all while they have no water or electricity.
If they’re calling Hamas ‘human animals’, which given their behaviour is an understandable comment, then it applies to the IDF at the moment in spades. It’s absolutely horrific!
The leaders on both sides seemed to have willingly embarked on a self-perpetuating cycle of violence, without seeming to give a shit about the civilians on both sides caught between them.
It’s medieval barbarism from both sides
Quite barbaric reading about Hamas just killing all those festival goers. They surely knew there would be retaliation for what they did.
When it comes to medieval barbarism, Hamas have taken the gold medal here. What Israel have done doesn't even get close.
TomD has it right, this was about more than just revenge, it's too horrific to be just that, and these people (if they can be even called that, beheading babies in front of their parents makes it hard for me to see them as the same species) they cant be reasoned with, cant be reliably contained, and unfortunately can't be irradicated without huge loss of innocent Palestinian lives. So that's what we'll get, and yes it'll probably create more long term problems but in the immediate term Israel's response will be brutal, and one way or another Gaza will be an even bigger hell hole than it already clearly is. I can't see too many western world leaders trying to hold them back.
Quite barbaric reading about Hamas just killing all those festival goers. They surely knew there would be retaliation for what they did
Nobody is defending that as it’s totally indefensible, but by retaliating with equal barbarity, where does that end up?
A death-spiral into total inhumanity and depravity, that’s where.
They’re both - and I mean the leaders of the Israeli government and Hamas here - as bad as each other. They seem embarked on a pissing competition involving the killing of innocent civilians
I couldn't give stuff about Hamas, Israelis, Hezbollah or Western government policies. What I do give a stuff about are the families trying to stay alive while the media watches their world blown apart.
Sorry for the emotive language but sometimes, like now, I absolutely ******* despair.
While agreeing that the Israeli response and behaviour in general is wrong in many ways, I still see lots of condemnation with no alternative suggestions.
Disregarding the reasons that led to this situation, here are some facts: You have an extremist group that are in your towns murdering everyone they see, babies, elderly, anyone. Deliberately and brutally. This group is deeply entrenched in a mostly innocent population and when not actually shooting, are indistinguishable from said innocents. They also fire rockets from within heavily populated areas.
What do you do now?
Really, in an ideal (but realistic) world?
Immediately withdraw from all these areas and give them to the Palestinians? Give equal rights and full freedom of movement within Israel to everyone in Gaza?
It's like some people think that would be a magic solution and they'd all live together happily ever after in peace and harmony.
No, I don't have any ideas either.
I think most people would agree there’s a significant difference between the tactics uses by Ukraine, which appear to be small, targetted at millitary installations (with very few civilian casualties) and controlled, with the approach used last weekend, which was for the large part a deliberate attack against unarmed civilians with no link to military targets. I’d not have a problem with Hamas trying to blow up a site used to launch rockets at them, but running round killing people at a festival is a long way from that.
That's a good point and I agree with that.
I don't think the rampage by Hamas is excusable in any way, shape or form. Reading up about how they slaughtered the festival goers just defies belief.
That said, the point you make about "the tactics" used by the Ukraine being "small, targetted at millitary installations (with very few civilian casualties) and controlled" is the polar opposite of how Israel conducts its 'operations' in Gaza.
I doubt close observers of Israel-Palestine over the past months and years will be much surprised by this attack, save for the apparent total failure of Netanyahu’s government to have prevented it.
It was obvious that the situation was boiling over and instead of diplomacy and measured response, the current government choose to pour gasoline over the flames.
How it plays out from here who knows, but it the only real winners I can see who walk away from this are Hamas and Netanyahu's extremists.
I doubt close observers of Israel-Palestine over the past months and years will be much surprised by this attack, save for the apparent total failure of Netanyahu’s government. It seemed obvious that the situation was boiling over and instead of diplomacy and measured response, the current government choose to pour gasoline over the flames.
How it plays out from here who knows, but it the only real winners I can see who walk away from this are Hamas and Netanyahu’s extremists
I'd say that this is pretty much sums it up. Unfortunately, this carnage was inevitable from the day Netanyahu went to bed with the various right wing extremists he needed to keep his corrupt administration in power
What's astonishing is how Biden is basically condoning war crimes. The takeway quote from the UN for me is:
In line with its previous findings, the Commission emphasises that the only path towards ending violence and achieving sustainable peace is through addressing the root causes of the conflict including through ending the illegal occupation of Palestinian territory and recognising the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination.
Hamas must have known that by committing such atrocities, the response would be unthinkable for the Palestinian people.
So, what is the end game? One can only wonder if it was to launch an attack so heinous that it would elicit such a storm of violence against Gaza that it will trigger some sort of wider conflict which could lead to a significantly different political landscape.
So, what is the end game? One can only wonder if it was to launch an attack so heinous that it would elicit such a storm of violence against Gaza that it will trigger some sort of wider conflict which could lead to a significantly different political landscape.
Hamas' whole thing is bringing about the end of the world and annihilation of the Jews. You don't have to wonder what their end game is they tell you at every opportunity.
I'm unsure if Israel has widespread support in the US and many Americans probably wonder why every year it rains almost 4 billion USD on their military, although clearly AIPAC is both highly influential and very effective.
In any case, the only person that can prevent a total catastrophe in Gaza is Biden, but in what he said today, he's effectively signed it off. The results from here on will be tragic.
What we’re watching now is somehow part of Hamas’s game plan. God know what they’re trying to achieve, but this was a carefully planned attack in which they chose to target civilians and take hostages back to Gaza.
Of course Israel’s government didn’t have to respond as they did. They could’ve chosen restraint, simply driving back the attackers, but of course they did not.
But Hamas also has the power to stop the humanitarian crisis. Instead they’re firing rockets from built up areas and threatening to kill the hostages they took. This is what they want.
But they may have failed if their aim was to provoke Israel into acting with such brutality that the international community was horrified into action. If the reports from the Kfar Aza kibbutz are confirmed, Hamas will certainly end up more isolated than ever.
Quite a few here with luxury opinions and no skin in the game.
Best just to offer support and be quiet.
Best just to offer support and be quiet.
Both "eh?" And "no"
Quite a few here with luxury opinions and no skin in the game.
Cheers dits.
I’m unsure if Israel has widespread support in the US and many Americans probably wonder why every year it rains almost 4 billion USD on their military
You may want to read up about The Rapture. The American evangelicals, of which there are many, believe that on the second coming (any day now, honest…) the Jews will all convert to Christianity
Just to throw another piece of religious nut-jobbery into the mix
I honestly think they should just give half the world over to those who don’t believe in any of this nonsense and let the other lot fight it out for eternity in the other half about who’s got the best imaginary friend
^ The above post is greatly appreciated both by those of us here who are nutjobs and those fighting in Israel/Gaza who are mostly not religious.
👍
I’m unsure if Israel has widespread support in the US
It does but it is overwhelmingly among elderly right-wingers:
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2022/07/11/american-views-of-israel/
I think what many people probably don't appreciate though is just how critical of Israel much of the Jewish community in the United States is. The obvious high profile example is Bernie Sanders but the majority of American Jews don't apparently support Israeli government policy in the occupied territories.
It is a point which sadly I often have to remind some of my left-wing friends.
You’re wasting your time trying to explain anything more complicated than ‘my enemies enemy is my friend’ to a tankie, as this thread has so depressingly proved
On a more worrying front, interviews with both Hamas leaders (on channel 4 news) and Israeli government ministers (on Newsnight) have them both talking in the kind of language that boxers use in the press conference a week before a fight.
God (or Allah or whoever… ) help the poor bastards caught in the middle between these two gangs of furiously posturing ‘Hard Man’ lunatics.
do not seem to hold pro-Israel positions
I’ll keep this short. Being pro the right for Israel to continue to exist as a home
state for the Jewish people is quite normal for Democrats. Supporting Israel in simply existing and defending itself is entirely uncontroversial in the USA. What is meant here as a “pro-Israel position” is being supportive of right wing governments in Israel and their wider aims and actions, especially as regards annexation and expansion, and effectively rejecting a two state solution. That many in a Democrat administration do not do so is unsurprising.
The Biden Administration has a hugely disproportionate number of Jews in it, in fact I believe that the majority might be Jewish
This is simply not true. Stop repeating anti-semitic propaganda.
President Biden’s Cabinet is set to make history in a number of ways.
If all the nominees he has chosen are confirmed, the Cabinet — including the vice president, the heads of 15 executive departments and eight other key positions — will be the most racially and ethnically diverse ever. Among them are six African Americans, four Hispanics, three Asian Americans and one Native American.
Half the nominees are women — the most ever nominated for a presidential Cabinet.
In terms of their religious backgrounds, the Cabinet nominees are also diverse. Like Biden, the majority — at least eight — are Catholic.
But five Jews have also been nominated, two Black Baptists and, if the surgeon general is included (often not), two Hindus. (A handful of Cabinet picks do not appear to identify with any religion.)
One group not represented? White evangelicals, the group most loyal to President Donald Trump.
benosBut they may have failed if their aim was to provoke Israel into acting with such brutality that the international community was horrified into action. If the reports from the Kfar Aza kibbutz are confirmed, Hamas will certainly end up more isolated than ever.
Even if Hamas fails there are many that will take their place willing by learning from their past mistakes. Even if Hamas is totally wiped out, the conflict will never cease as the bruised pride is simply too severe. No matter what defensive systems Israel have, the systems will not last forever to protect them and will only be prolonging the inevitable.
Bear in mind Israel is perceived by many in the Islamic world as an "artificial inserted" state created by the past colonial masters to "police" the region. Israel is also considered as a recent phenomena after WWII, hence it is still fresh in the mind of many. The Palestinian see this as unjust and and they want the land back regardless and it is "non" negotiable. Israeli can argue as much as they wish that God has given them the land etc and they are the chosen ones, but this has no effect whatsoever on desperate people around them. Even if they are the most intelligent people in the world it will come at a cost of peace.
Problem with Israel in recent time is their approach in systematically choking the life out of the remaining Palestinians. The intention is to make their living so unbearable they migrate or move into neighbouring states. No need to use violence but merely applying indirect pressure to living using system of governance. The problem with this is that their neighbours understand them too well to see them coming.
There is no intention to have two state solution because that is simply ungovernable. The two state solution is simply unworkable.
The only way to have a period of peace is to divide up the land up to the North and South whatever and even this is just to negotiate for a short term peace of perhaps for several hundred years, if that is possible.
There will be no peace before war.
...how critical of Israel much of the Jewish community in the United States is. The obvious high profile example is Bernie Sanders...
WTF are you wittering on about? Biden is a devout Catholic. You're a textbook example of starting with a conclusion and working back from there. What's your motive?
Reading comprehension fail. As you were... 🤦🏻♂️
The whole thing is utterly horrific.
One thing that has struck me though is the BBC coverage - it seems rather biased towards favouring Israel - appears to be maximising coverage of the losses suffered by Israel and playing down those in Gaza.
Christ. The US is sending a carrier strike force to the Eastern Med in support of Israel.
The group has been in the Med since June allegedly, not something I follow but have just seen a statement claiming as such. (Some 1/2 million subscriber former 6th Fleet USN YouTube guy)
Not sure if that really changes the significance of the groups movements, but it was something already fairly close to events.
Grant Shapps on BBC news now explicitly agreeing with Israel’s description of the Palestinians as “human animals”.
God know what they’re trying to achieve
The worlds attention focussed on the conflict
Stopping the “normalisation talks” going on between Israel and Saudi Arabia
return of Hamas and Palestinian prisoners
check in the box for the first two, given that Netanyahu has exchanged 1000 of Palestinians for 1 soldier in the past, I’d imagine they’re pretty confident of the third
oh and if you can provoke Israel into a disproportionate revenge attack as well that’s probably something Hamas would be content with
What is meant here as a “pro-Israel position” is being supportive of right wing governments in Israel and their wider aims and actions, especially as regards annexation and expansion,
Yup, definitely. Criticism of Israel is often interpreted as not being "pro-Israel", especially by hard-line Zionists. It is even often interpreted as being anti-semitism - see disciplinary action taken in the Labour Party.
I totally agree that the idea that the Biden administration isn't "pro-Israel" is ridiculous. It highlights just how sensitive the Israeli government and the hard-right are.
Reading comprehension fail. As you were… 🤦🏻♂️
Thank you for the correction 👍
God knows what they’re trying to achieve
1. Serve God - they believe they are in a holy war and this is God's work
2. Kill all the Jews and establish an Islamic state, or revel in the end of days either is fine because God will sort the Jews out then
3. Their own deaths - because that gets you to paradise anyway
hugely disproportionate number of Jews in it, in fact I believe that the majority might be Jewish
This is simply not true. Stop repeating anti-semitic propaganda.
I was simply repeating the claim made in the article :
"While the Jews working with Biden are a relative majority in his administration"
Anti-semitic? Well the article doesn't seem to be in the slightest bit anti-semitic, I certainly would not have posted a link to it if I thought it was anti-semitic.
I always try to investigate the motives/background of authors of articles before posting a link but in this case I found it difficult to establish:
https://adnanabuamer.com/post/5936/israel-concerned-about-jewish-officials-in-biden-administration
I am more than happy to be corrected that Jews working with Biden are not a relative majority in his administration.
In fact I would be very grateful if you have a link which shows what the exact percentage is. I recently had an extremely heated argument with a friend who claimed that 70% of the Biden administration was Jewish. I told him not to be ridiculous, it would be great if I could show him the actual figure.
Edit: There appears to be a very large percentage of Jews in Biden's administration according to the Jewish Virtual Library, which I feel very confident isn't anti-semitic:
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jews-in-the-biden-administration
No idea what percentage that totals though. I do know that 2.4% of the American population is considered Jewish, which is really quite small.
What we’re watching now is somehow part of Hamas’s game plan. God know what they’re trying to achieve
Pretty sure their hope now is firstly Hezbollah + Palestinians in the West Bank will join in with attacks on Israel (in a much bigger way than they are now) once Israeli invades the Gaza Strip and continues murdering Palestinian civilians whilst trying to root out Hamas. I'd expect they're then hoping that escalation will trigger Israel escalating it's attacks in Lebanon and in turn that brings Iran into the conflict.
What that does for them long term, at this point I don't think they care - not just the West but increasingly Arab states have given Israel a free pass to oppress Palestinians. I guess they feel they have nothing left to lose at this point. Just to make it clear though I don't think their actions since Saturday are justified and some of the acts they've committed are truly barbaric and no member of Hamas deserves any sympathy for what's to come. But if Hamas are supposedly around 30,000 in their military wing vs 2,000,000 Palestinians in the Gaza Strip I don't really understand how, in 2023, the West seems to be fine treating them as collateral damage to allow Israel to exact their revenge.
Christ. The US is sending a carrier strike force to the Eastern Med in support of Israel.
Apparently it’s just a ‘don’t even think about it’ show of strength in case the Iranians are thinking of chipping in
It’s not about revenge it’s about bringing about the end of days. If this starts a regional conflagration that’s job done for them regardless of how many die.
I think it’s almost impossible for secular people to understand how religious extremists think. When they talk about all the righteous end of days stuff and martyrdom they really, really mean it.
And this mindset is not restricted to the region, it is shared by a large chunk of evangelical neo-con types in the States, who see all-out war in the Middle East as a precondition for the second coming, and will be quite happy to add as much fuel to that particular fire as possible.
From 2008 till September 2023, 6,407 Palestinians were recorded to have been killed, more than half through missile attacks. During the same period, the UN recorded the death of 308 Israelis in conflict situations.
Much as I despise the actions of Hamas, the IDF have been not exactly using a proportionate response over the years.
No power, hospital facilities, food or water in the Gaza strip, so there's a massive humanitarian crisis created by Hamas and the IDF, again no winners in this one.
Quite a few here with luxury opinions and no skin in the game.
Best just to offer support and be quiet.
I disagree. Firstly this is about our fellow human beings, and on a pragmatic level wars in other parts of the world affect us in a number of ways. Secondly "offer support" - to who, and why, or are you suggesting basic hand-wringing "oh dear, how terrible". Thirdly, being quiet in the face of genocide hasn't worked in the past and is unlikely to work in the future.
Apparently it’s just a ‘don’t even think about it’ show of strength in case the Iranians are thinking of chipping in
And to aid where required the extraction of US Citizens. The US military has already been directed to provide intelligence support to aid the recovery of hostages.