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Seems to be a few people feeling extra sensitive on the Covid threads today.
Try and be kind to each other.
There are sectors where exactly that is required this winter.
And without the support the tier 3 measures are doomed to fail anyway. The only conclusion I can come to is that its what Boris and co want. It's now become a grubby political game. They lockdown the regions without the support required, they fail and they get to blame the people and local leaders in those regions for delaying or not following the rules. The only result Boris wants out of this is that he's not seen to have blood on his hands. He wants local leaders and the public to take the blame for covid deaths, and wants Sunak to take the blame for the economic collapse. Then he can stand back and pretend he had nothing to do with it.
Burnham needs to call him out on this, and I expect he will. Make it clear Boris is responsible for both the deaths and the economic hardship, and that there is another way, but the govt won't do that because they're more interested in playing politics.
Seems to be a few people feeling extra sensitive on the Covid threads today.
Try and be kind to each other.
Agreed.
I'd suggest some people might benefit from looking at the teabagging thread in this very forum.
🙂
Do you think Burnham's luxurious eyebrows are due to teabagging?
The only conclusion I can come to is that its what Boris and co want. It’s now become a grubby political game.
The present government and grubby politicing? Say it ain't so.
If the government mandates you shutter a business then it follows that its incumbent on the government to provide support to those businesses that can no longer trade due to restrictions they introduced.
No magic money trees, no communism, just the sensible conclusion that you have to support businesses that you prevent from trading.
Johnson loves to roll out the war time rhetoric. Remind me what happens to spending and debt during a war?
Johnson loves to roll out the war time rhetoric. Remind me what happens to spending and debt during a war?
Can you submit that to Starmer as one of his PMQ questions?
You want communism here, then thats the way to go
Have I wandered into the comments section of a Daily Mail article by mistake?
What people seem to not be grasping is the support being asked for here will be a drop in the ocean compared to the long term costs of all these businesses going to the wall, mass unemployment, home repossessions, crime, homelessness etc etc
Where's the evidence that these "circuit breaker" or "fire break" or "tier 3 lockdown" things actually work, and that the benefits outweigh the costs?
There's a PHE paper kicking around that says that although there's some evidence for Vitamin D protecting from Covid19, and that the costs are tiny, the risks (toxicity at very high levels) mean we shouldn't be doing it.
Meanwhile, we just crack on with all these destructive lockdowns without any kind of evidence whatsoever.
Meanwhile, we just crack on with all these destructive lockdowns without any kind of evidence whatsoever.
Because hundreds of thousands of people may die if we don't have lockdowns? Have you not been paying attention for the last 6-7 months?
MoreCashThanDash
Full MemberMeanwhile, we just crack on with all these destructive lockdowns without any kind of evidence whatsoever.
Because hundreds of thousands of people may die if we don’t have lockdowns? Have you not been paying attention for the last 6-7 months?
Worldwide or in the UK?
Meanwhile, we just crack on with all these destructive lockdowns without any kind of evidence whatsoever.
Jesus it gets worse. The lockdowns are being incredibly badly managed yes but the only country in Europe that didn't really lock down the guy in charge has admitted it was a mistake. They had worse death rates and the economy fared no better than other Nordic countries, essentially. We might instead ask the question why all the Nordic countries did so much better than us.
Where’s the evidence that these “circuit breaker” or “fire break” or “tier 3 lockdown” things actually work, and that the benefits outweigh the costs?
Do you remember in the spring when we had a near-lockdown across the country and the virus was brought under control?
The idea of a "circuit break" is to slow the spread of the virus in exactly the same way, but with a defined end date and the possibility of another later.
A cost-benefit analysis is another matter. Contrary to popular belief, you can put a price on human life - but it's considered a bit crass to do so publicly.
We might instead ask the question why all the Nordic countries did so much better than us.
This is one of the reasons...'The number of households in Sweden in 2019 amounted to around 4.7 million. Among these, the most common type of household, around 40 percent, was the single-person household without children, which amounted to around 1.9 million'.
Also, scandi countries have few major population centres; no large scale commuting; far fewer social mixing venues.
What would be more pertinent is to ask " why the south asian countries have got so much lower infection and death rates?"
As an instant reaction without knowing the breakdown of people living in poverty or near poverty (and other facts like numbers on minimum wage jobs), I find it staggering that Greater Manchester was only offered ~50% of the financial package for almost twice the population size when Boris wanterd them to go to "tier 3," compared to the Liverpool and Lancashire.
I hope Burnham has secured something more like £80M+ this morning.
Shit! Looking over towards the city centre, it’s not looking good...
What would be more pertinent is to ask ” why the south asian countries have got so much lower infection and death rates?”
They dealt with SARS which never really got outside that area (much).
They know how to handle it and they have tried and tested plans and resources in place.
Unlike this country which managed to ignore the results of Operation Cygnus in 2016 and then disband the organisation that prepared for pandemic outbreaks.
5pm news conference - Boris and Van Tam
They'll be announcing how giving Manchester £12.37 is far too generous but Boris will offer everyone the chance to lick his shoes clean 'cos he's a man of the people.
What would be more pertinent is to ask ” why the south asian countries have got so much lower infection and death rates?”
Has Boris not taught you anything. We cannot compare ourselves to other nations... unless that comparison means we look better aka "best track and trace system in the world" /sarcasm
Bit of a rehtorical question crazylegs!
the other key point is they locked down earlier and harder
Why Van Tam - he's not struck me as being particularly malleable in the past?
They're at it again! They've learnt nothing. Little Matty Handjob has stood up in parliament and said that the government are presently negotiating with the Mayors and MPs of Middlesborough and Teeside, as well as others
Except they've just been on Five Live saying they haven't had any discussions with government at all. An MP from Middlesborough says he is 'wholly dispirited' as he is fully expecting to be in the same situation as Manchester very soon. Having dictats issued by Dom from the Westminster bunker
They’re at it again! They’ve learnt nothing. Little Matty Handjob has stood up in parliament and said that the government are presently negotiating with the Mayors and MPs of Middlesborough and Teeside, as well as others....
This whole situation amazes me I can't believe its still going on. The mind boggles. Its business 101 make sure everyone agrees before talking to the wider teams. (aka the public) The situation we are in now where Boris is putting measures in place local gov' haven't seen that will impact them on such a HUGE scale is pure negligence. Its really simple nothing zoom meetings before all this was announced couldn't solve... but then that suggest the Toris actually care what other people think, its do as I say not as I do.
Realistically the Tories should have stayed firm and said no you get what you given deal with it. Now they have put themselves in a situation where every local gov' is going to want to negotiate their own tier 3 package getting more than the last leading to a situation thats even more confusing that it was originally. I can't believe people voted for this shit. Bun the tories! /rant over!
a situation where every local gov’ is going to want to negotiate their own tier 3 package
“Tier3” was designed to be a bespoke arrangement for each area going into it… the confusion and haggling is designed into it. The whole approach is quite frankly, a mess… when what is needed is clarity… easily understood and effective social distancing rules, and support for those hit by those rules.
We might instead ask the question why all the Nordic countries did so much better than us.
The factors you list are correct. But Sweden's death rate per thousand shows that even with those factors, without a lockdown you are still screwed.
Is Van Tam there to give the medical "go into Tier 3 or have more deaths" argument while Boris plays the good guy and ups the offer by 5p?
The situation we are in now where Boris is putting measures in place local gov’ haven’t seen that will impact them on such a HUGE scale is pure negligence.
Its even worse than that, not only are they not communicating, and issuing dictats, they are refusing to share the data, statistics or methodology by which they've arrived at these decisions
So they're asking huge areas to shut down their economies without showing them the justification, then when asked, saying 'don't you worry your pretty little head about that. We know whats best for you'
And they wonder why they're getting pushback?
And, importantly, still no plan for getting areas out of Tier3, so once you go in, it could be for the whole winter… especially as the scientific advisors have said that Tier3 measures are not expected to be enough to stop case/admissions/deaths increasing… just slow the rate of increase. How do you get back to Teir2 ?
So no deal apparently, and our glorious leader is going to tell us whats going to happen later on tv... im amazed.
Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but sometime soon...
So no deal apparently, and our glorious leader is going to tell us whats going to happen later on tv… im amazed.
Just practicing for Brexit with the no deal
At this point I'd be up for Burnham telling everyone to ignore the tier 3 and stay open and instruct the police not to act on it. Then he'd need to come up with his own plan to combat the virus spread. With people on his side it would have more chance of success than an imposed lockdown which no one agrees with.
https://twitter.com/LucyMPowell/status/1318543447297609730?s=20
When are the helicopter gunships arriving?
Massive Godzilla style MC Tunes vs the gunships. When all this is over, that's the film I'm making.
I was just searching for that Binners. Can we push for independence?
Is that image your work Binners?
Can't take any credit for that, I'm afraid. It's a Man Yoo Supporters Group.
I expect we're about to be seeing a lot more of it though
The factors you list are correct. But Sweden’s death rate per thousand shows that even with those factors, without a lockdown you are still screwed.
OK, I'll bite. This obsession with "seeee!! Sweden didn't follow our (insane) approach, and they still had problems!!! SEEEE!!" is weirdly widespread across channels, and it's just ridiculous. It's like shouting "seee!! Little Timmy didn't eat his own poo like I have, and he still got ill, so who's the idiot, huh?!".
So, looking at cases per 100k population to yesterday. Top of the list in Europe, Montenegro, with 2500. Spain has 1995 per 100k, Belgium 1939... France 1339, Netherlands 1321. UK, 1084, Ireland 1019 per 100k.
Sweden, 1009 per 100k, then Portugal at 972 per 100k. Denmark has 610 per 100k, Germany 441 per 100k (although IIRC reporting there was a bit iffy for a while), Greece 237 per 100k.
Deaths per 100k: Belgium 91, Spain 72, UK 65, Italy 61. Sweden 58, France 50, Ireland 38. Denmark 12.
First thing to note, of course, is that as discussed elsewhere, cases per 100k is NOT the total impact of COVID - it doesn't take into account non-COVID deaths (to date or in the future) arising from COVID initiatives, economic deprivation, effects on poverty rate etc.
Second thing is that wow, there's a hell of a range of numbers there. Countries with lockdown have done better, other countries with lockdown have done (far!) worse.
Third, Sweden hasn't, on these incredibly limited metrics, done much better than the UK - but it has, on those same metrics, done better.
So, the conclusion here is that... well, we can't actually draw conclusions because WE'RE STILL IN THE MIDDLE OF IT. But, it's fair to say that Sweden certainly isn't outside the range of COVID impact which, given just how different its response has been, is very interesting.
So, can we now stop yelling, with faeces around our mouth, "look at little Timmy! Timmy didn't eat his own poo, and he's not turned into Superman! Seee! Eating your own poo is definitely the way forward!!" and perhaps be a bit more mature about it?
I did read an interesting take on the Swedish issue that points out that the healthy life years remaining at age 65 is significantly lower in the UK than it is in Sweden (about half as much, in fact).
This goes some way towards explaining why Sweden is doing better - it's not anything they're doing specifically, but more that over-65s in the UK tend to be fat, lazy diabetics who eat and drink too much while using cars at every opportunity. << said cars affect air quality, making them even more likely to pop their clogs from flu / CV19.
I think you're better off comparing Sweden to its neighbours who have similar demographics - Norway and Finland. I'm pretty sure they're doing much better than Sweden.
https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3765
I read somewhere that their better social security means less pressure to work when ill/infected also. Plus just generally better social cohesion, higher standards of healthcare etc. I think you can only really compare it to other similar Nordic countries though, as pointed out.
So, can we now stop yelling, with faeces around our mouth, “look at little Timmy! Timmy didn’t eat his own poo, and he’s not turned into Superman! Seee! Eating your own poo is definitely the way forward!!” and perhaps be a bit more mature about it?
Your post is by far the most hysterical OTT thing I've read about Covid and Sweden.
Good speech by Andy. Lets see what the flytipped sofa has to say and whether the 'facts' as described by them both has the remotest thing in common.
Theres no question about who is going to be believed. It will hardly come as a surprise.
Third, Sweden hasn’t, on these incredibly limited metrics, done much better than the UK – but it has, on those same metrics, done better.
Most countries have done better then the UK, on those metrics. And in terms of the economic impact as well.
I read somewhere that their better social security means less pressure to work when ill/infected also.
Yup, full pay when isolating because of symptoms or TTI. Compare that to here... where people can choose between our statutory sick pay (naff all) or to carry on going to work. Not hard to see why so many people in the UK carry on going to work, or are avoiding TTI and generally trying to stay under the radar, rather than cooperate.
Good speech by Andy.
Missed it.
Switched on... the others are speaking... let's keep remembering there is enormous consensus on this in the region... unprecedented it could be said... this is not about one man.
Well that's a few north west Tory MPs retraining in cyber come the next election.