An old boss of mine used to say "perception is reality".he's not inherently a Westminster/Whitehall/London Elite...
yeshe is 100%
Odd thing to say 🙂 but Burnham went to Cambridge and straight into union then labour party policy roles. Never had a real world job, absolutely a party machine man his whole adult life
An old boss of mine used to say "perception is reality".he's not inherently a Westminster/Whitehall/London Elite...
yeshe is 100%
Odd thing to say 🙂
well he was a **** - but this was actually the most insightful thing he ever said! Essentially it doesn't really matter what your detailed analysis of the facts says, if X is perceived to be Y by either senior managers or our customers then effectively it is, even if "scientifically" it is not.
but Burnham went to Cambridge and straight into union then labour party policy roles.
But he didn't study politics, he comes from "humble" roots (his dad wasn't even a tool maker ;-)) he's from "the North", represented constituencies in the North on his first time round (and actually lived there) and has just spent the last while as Mayor of Manchester. He's a genuine football supporter and music fan (not just someone doing it for the votes) - and I suspect much more relatable than ex DPP Sir Keir, ex merchant banker Nigel. He's long been a critic of Westminster...
Never had a real world job, absolutely a party machine man his whole adult life
In someways Starmer's downfall was actually that he didn't really understand how to work the party machine! I think Andy did have a spell in journalism - although you might not consider that a real job either.
Wait till you realise how we appoint the head of state!Looking from this side of the channel it seems odd that a newly elected MP who isn't even a minister gets named PM without some kind of electoral race.
The MBacc initiative is quite interesting, and includes both Digital Technology and the Green Economy as key topics.On Burnham himself... ...The digital economy - he seems more intersted in buses, trains and apprenticeships, does he know this is 2026?
In someways Starmer's downfall was actually that he didn't really understand how to work the party machine!
I don't think you can go from DPP to Labour leader and PM in about a decade and not be able to work the party machine. I think his problem was what to do when he achieved it.
I don't think theres much any of them can do. they are so far in hock to the bond markets that theres no money.
the managed decline needs to be graceful, but lets just hope it goes toward a cap in hand return to the EU, and doesn't end up with Lord Frogface.
Never had a real world job, absolutely a party machine man his whole adult life
You don't need to have had a real job - you just need to listen to people who have. Leadership isn't about deciding everything, it's about managing the process and the people who do make the decisions.
Looking from this side of the channel it seems odd that a newly elected MP who isn't even a minister gets named PM without some kind of electoral race.
There is an election - within the party.
Never had a real world job, absolutely a party machine man his whole adult life
You don't need to have had a real job - you just need to listen to people who have. Leadership isn't about deciding everything, it's about managing the process and the people who do make the decisions.
Yes but the idea that he is not a part of the westminster political elite does not stand up to scrutiny. He absolutely is having taken the usual route into a position of political power thru the party machine.
What do you mean by elite exactly? I mean he's a career politician, but maybe that makes him good at it? I'm not sure that the phrase 'Elite' means a lot here. Perhaps if you'd grown up with privilege as a wealthy aristocrat or something it might. Unless 'elite' just means really good at politics which sounds like something you'd want in a PM.
Yes but the idea that he is not a part of the westminster political elite does not stand up to scrutiny.
Think everyone’s missing the central point. The critical thing is not how he got where is, but where he comes from. The UK is basically two different countries, the South East, and the North and everywhere else. For most of our history we’ve been ruled by people from the London or the south. Burnham becoming PM represents a massive shift in power to the north and that will see things being done very differently I think.
The question about where the money will come from is easy to answer. It’s going to come from the millionaires and billionaires in the south east and will be diverted to the north.
It’s probably also the seed of his downfall whenever that happens as people in the south east will turn back to the tories and Labour will have age old problem of holding enough of the centre ground to maintain a decent majority.
Burnham will be able to hang on for a little while longer as long as people don't go hungry. He will be able to to minimise the damage but it will be very hard work. There will be no quick fix because of the damaged economy caused by the way geopolitics is nowadays.
Oh ... if Milliband goes to No.11 then Labour is definitely doomed. That bloke has lost his mind.
The country is crumbling because the economy is shagged. The factors that are causing that are pretty much outside of a national governments control. So, regardless of who's the PM and want they want to achieve, they will havee all the same problems and limitations as Starmer. There's no magic bullet.
That's the elephant in the room but most try to deny or to ignore its existence.
What do you mean by elite exactly?
Generally, born into privilege, schooled at Eton, on to PPE degree at Oxford, into a big 4 grad scheme/journalism for a bit, before being parachuted into a safe seat and then on from there depending on ‘performance’
It's funny, when somebody asked me yesterday what I thought of him, my instinct was to respond with "he's not the messiah..." (pre-empting the Monty Python joke...)
Seems I'm not the only one! 🤣
For most of our history we’ve been ruled by people from the London or the south. Burnham becoming PM represents a massive shift in power to the north and that will see things being done very differently I think.
Plenty of PMs from outside the south.
The UK is basically two different countries, the South East, and the North and everywhere else
Risable. Even in the north of England there is a huge divide between the urban areas of the M62 corridor and rural areas like the lakes. Scotland and Wales are different again ( I don't really know wales) and the highlands and Islands are very different from the central belt in Scotland
~Chishire has more in common with the south east than with the western isles
What do you mean by elite exactly? I mean he's a career politician, but maybe that makes him good at it? I'm not sure that the phrase 'Elite' means a lot here. Perhaps if you'd grown up with privilege as a wealthy aristocrat or something it might. Unless 'elite' just means really good at politics which sounds like something you'd want in a PM.
the westminster elite are those who have lived their entire adult lives in their respective party machines IMO. BUrnham is just another apparatchik to me. Raynor at least has some experience outside of politics.
he tripped over on winter fuel allowance (actually probably a reasonable policy), he's been he subject of leadership machinations for months and then he's essentially just tripped up again on defence spending. That's not a sign of someone who can control the party. I'm not saying he was the wrong man, or that he didn't work dilligently to reform the labour chaos that preceded him but he's resigned not because he's actually useless (despite what the media say) but because his own party wanted him gone...In someways Starmer's downfall was actually that he didn't really understand how to work the party machine!
I don't think you can go from DPP to Labour leader and PM in about a decade and not be able to work the party machine. I think his problem was what to do when he achieved it.
I agree that on that definition of elite it is what you want, but I think when I used the phrase "London Elite" (I didn't say political elite) that I meant it in the way "elitist" is commonly used - to describe a closed, select group, which is difficult for people from outside the group to get access to. TJ has of course decided on his own definition!What do you mean by elite exactly? I mean he's a career politician, but maybe that makes him good at it? I'm not sure that the phrase 'Elite' means a lot here.
he's not inherently a Westminster/Whitehall/London Elite
is the quote. Burnham very much is a part of this group IMO. Good at pretending he is not perhaps.
Standsrd career trajectory for a Labour politician
Burnham becoming PM represents a massive shift in power to the north and that will see things being done very differently I think.
Let's hope so. It isn't moving power 'to the north' as such though. It's moving power out of Westminster to all the regions. Manchesterism is what they are calling it, but it's regionalism really. Him and Steve Rotherham have written a book on it... Head North... which is a manifesto. It outlines what their plans are very clearly. Its well worth a read.
I don't know how well it was reported but he did make the statement last week that the 'London Elite has had its chance' and it was time for a different approach. I notice that they (the London Elite) have been very scathing about him already with comments about him 'sorting the buses out' in a very dismissive manner. Well he hasn't just 'sorted the buses out', he's taken the transport system back under public control from a fractured and completely dysfunctional private system.
While doing this he's also bought in all electric vehicles. He's improved things massively in that department, which living in a city region, where people depend on public transport, makes a real difference to peoples everyday lives. Thats why he's so popular. He's delivered actual real world improvements that people can see every day.
Thats one example, there's plenty of other stuff (read the book), all of which has further fueled Manchesters economic growth
So, I'm optimistic for what he can achieve because what this represented was him doing the maximum he could within the limits of the power that has been devolved. He's a huge believer in further devolving power to the regions and out of Westminster, allowing others to do the same... for local services to be taken back under local control, instead of being at the whim of dictats from London. He's not just saying that, he means it too.
Posted by: tjagain↑he's not inherently a Westminster/Whitehall/London Elite
is the quote. Burnham very much is a part of this group IMO. Good at pretending he is not perhaps.
Complete bollocks, quite frankly
I see a couple of Labour MPs (Al Carns and Darren Jones... who?) are going to fuel their ego's and try and raise their profiles by pointlessly challenging Andy for the leadership (they'll lose..... massively) and ensure a completely unnecessary leadership contest. Maybe they're just angling for a job? How very 'Westminster'
BBC.CO.UK Risable.
This is English politics TJ, you don't know what you're talking about.
Just checking, that's all I have to post, right? I don't have to prove anything or what not, that's right isn't it?
Thats one example, there's plenty of other stuff (read the book), all of which has further fueled Manchesters economic growth
I will say of Burnham, he does speak of regeneration and localism and productivity, and criticises foreign investment as a growth strategy, but much of the development in and around Manchester is - Foreign Investment.
There are also internal migration trends with people moving out of London, accelerated by COVID. Some of Manchester's current development is fueled by changes happening at national level.
Of course Burham is part of the political elite. He’s already been in government! He’s stood to lead his party more times than anyone I can think off. His history is that of a career politician through and through. That he was wise enough to leave parliament while Labour tried the Corbyn thing has changed people’s perception of him. But the history is there.
If the economy still does not improve this year or in 1 or 2 years time, then Farage will definitely be the next next PM.
It's not going to greatly improve, we have the brakes on as regards trade with the EU. And on top of that we have Trump throwing spanners in the works with trade as regards USA, and supply chains elsewhere. And then there is the ongoing effect of war in Europe. Single figure growth is a good result in the current climate, but people won't feel that in their pockets in 1 or 2 years. What's needed in this situation is redistribution.
But...
Farage gave us Brexit.
Farage turned out to actively support Trump.
Farage admires Putin.
Farage is against redistributive policies.
It's not going to greatly improve, we have the brakes on as regards trade with the EU. And on top of that we have Trump throwing spanners in the works with trade as regards USA, and supply chains elsewhere. And then there is the ongoing effect of war in Europe. Single figure growth is a good result in the current climate, but people won't feel that in their pockets in 1 or 2 years. What's needed in this situation is redistribution.
But...
Farage gave us Brexit.
Farage turned out to actively support Trump.
Farage admires Putin.
Farage is against redistributive policies.
Lucky if there is a single digit growth. But if that is not feel by the people, then the change of leadership will continue. Farage etc can talk as much as they want but they will be gone as quickly as they enter office.
Farage, Reform and their mates have absolutely no intention of ever delivering any economic growth. Any more than they thought Brexit would deliver economic growth. They're disaster capitalists. Asset strippers. If they were to get into power they wouldn't have planned on being there for long anyway. While they were though, they'd 'move fast and break things'
They'd sell anything left (ie: the NHS) off to their mates, deregulate everything so that we'd have a sweatshop economy for most of us (bye bye employment rights, food standards and environmental protections) with a Wild West financial sector attached. A playground for their dodgy crypto-billionaire cronies and a centre for money laundering and tax dodging. He didn't get that 5 million for nothing. And that's just the 'gift' we know about. How many more has he received? Or will receive upon delivery?
The fact that people are too stupid to see this I find both incredible and depressing in equal measure
There are also internal migration trends with people moving out of London, accelerated by COVID. Some of Manchester's current development is fueled by changes happening at national level.
For that to happen Manchester has to be a place people would want to move to. Burnham may be able to take some credit for that.
There are also internal migration trends with people moving out of London, accelerated by COVID. Some of Manchester's current development is fueled by changes happening at national level.
For that to happen Manchester has to be a place people would want to move to. Burnham may be able to take some credit for that.
He might, but Media City predates his time as Mayor as does Sheikh Mansour snapping up assets on the cheap and opening the cash taps.
I hope Burnham doesn't try and enforce flat cap wearing down saf.
Is Burnham a member of the Israel fanclub like starmer?
He supported LFI when he was last an MP, and has been criticising the disproportionate and inhuman actions of the Israeli regime recently. Much the same as Starmer. If you’re expecting either an “Israel must be destroyed” or “what Israel is doing is fair and just” approach from him or any other likely Labour PM, don’t hold your breath.
The fact that people are too stupid to see this I find both incredible and depressing in equal measure
They arent too stupid, in many cases, but sold a convincing narrative. We could have a drinking games about how often Farage is reported about having a pint (vs his preferred wine/g&t) or doesnt speak like a normal politician or he says what he thinks but we would need to sort out our last wills and testaments first.
Even generally good news sources often repeat this bollocks without question and without noting there is no evidence for him saying what he thinks vs saying something carefully constructed.
What we get sold counts a lot.
There is the Michael Foot remembrance day parade jacket (you will insert a word before this which is wrong) and more recently Corbyn who apparently didnt bow low enough since both were met by endless headlines saying how they were disrespectful.
Then we have Johnson turning up looking hungover and an absolute shitshow which isnt really remembered since it was rapidly disappeared with the BBC happening to make a mistake where they used a previous years footage.
For Farage it was interesting to see what happened today, see the BBC breakfast thread, when he crawled out from under the fridge for the first time to really face the press since the five million quid story broke.
He was flailing like **** when Sally Nugent failed to simply nod to his "no one cares" before moving to the next question and instead decided to stay on the topic.
We are all led by the media to a greater extent or not. We can only try to notice it since once we are sure we cant be fooled then we are the most easily fooled. I know I have wrote some stuff which when I looked at it again was basically repeating a handy meme.
Burnham appears to have found an economist (Jim O'Neil - ex Goldman Sachs) that has pointed out billions need to be invested and they can work around 'our' pretend Lord and Masters - the bond-market, and Alice in Wonderland based fiscal rules.
If Burnham goes this route I expect Labour will make progress with growth (a la Biden with his stimulus growth record).
If he spends it on the correct things.(Energy, housing, infrastructure etc.)
There will be a walk around on what's considered investment - to not upset the cry-baby bond vigilantes (those that enjoy a free bung £ from the government.) but it could be good for us.
The press will shout about gilt movements (don't issue long term gilts 🤪then) but then market will correct as it always does after the hysteria.
I really hope so - joking aside this is where the Starmer / Reeves comedy act have utterly failed fix the foundations despite their lies.
Any bollocks about stabilsing the economy should be ignored. There is no metric other than public outcomes that is relevant here. What Starmer meant is the stock market was enjoying success based on supporting high liquidity as a direct consequence of the wealth having plenty of money via interest income.
Tax needs to follow to reign this in.
Farage, Reform and their mates have absolutely no intention of ever delivering any economic growth. Any more than they thought Brexit would deliver economic growth. They're disaster capitalists. Asset strippers.
All neoliberalism does this. Current and previous governments are utterly complicit.
You have to go through opposite way (investment )if you don't want more of it.
Burnham appears to have found an economist (Jim O'Neil - ex Goldman Sachs) that has pointed out billions need to be invested and they can work around 'our' pretend Lord and Masters - the bond-market, and Alice in Wonderland based fiscal rules.
He was pushing for Land Value Capture and various S106 / community infrastructure levy options in the days when HS2 was supposed to be going to Manchester.
He knows what he's on about, he knows that the current system isn't working.
Ultimately it's why austerity was a complete failure - you can't "save" money by not investing in the country; you simply end up with a stagnant economy and everything falling to bits around you.
Don't forget about capital spending in the third sector, not for profits and universities... all need boosting... and that all needs the government not to, er, mess up their access to investment and borrowing at reasonable rates:
WONKHE.COM There is a reason Burnham will be careful with what is spent where, fiscal rectitude needs to go hand in hand with increased government capital spending, otherwise the fallout can prevent increased capital investment in other non-governmental orgs.
We also need the aggressive deterring of foreign students to end. It's economically ridiculous.
Anyway, who'll be the next Chancellor of the Exchequer...?
Burnham appears to have found an economist
Any politician will merely capture an expert who will say the things that the politician has already decided upon based on ideology. If you're hoping that Burnham talking to someone who shares the same voodoo economic therories as you do is an indicator that the current status quo is about to change, then you can spare us all now and just move directly to the "Burnham is worse than Starmer and doesn't know what he's doing" column
Which is pretty much where GBNews is already. There are endless stories already on the front page of their website about how bad Burnham is going to be.
isnt 'The Bond Market' where you get the money from?
Oh god, don't take us there @dakuan!
And you Nickc... don't bait him!
Anyway, Burham's "team", and those he consults more widely, are very.... er "wide" and experienced, he absolutely hasn't picked from a narrow political and/or economic pool. One thing you can't accuse Burnham off is picking one course of action and ignoring all voices that might point out the possible difficulties ahead.
Which is pretty much where GBNews is already. There are endless stories already on the front page of their website about how bad Burnham is going to be.
If he's upsetting GBeebies and hadn't even been appointed PM yet, the man has a lot going for him!
Anyway, who'll be the next Chancellor of the Exchequer...?
I find it interesting that while other papers are running with the effects of the heatwave on their front pages, the Mail runs with...
...it would be very brave of Burnham to appoint Miliband (someone he's known and trusted for decades)... if he did make that call, it would be a strong signal that he's not scared of the rags, and he's not going to bow to all the shilling for oil happening in politics right now (especially from the USA side of things).
I think I quite fancy the idea of Red Ed as chancellor.
The right wing press will be howling after Burnham until they find a reason for him to resign - suspect Burnham's wife will be their target for her business interests.
I believe/hope that Burnham is one of the few politicians who will stand up to and call out their bullshit.
I think I quite fancy the idea of Red Ed as chancellor.
It would be a massive show of defiance against the rightwing press so I’m praying he goes for it. Streeting knows f-all about finance or the treasury and miliband has worked there both a minister and an advisor so Christ knows why ‘the grown ups’ are touting someone with almost no qualifications or experience to do the job.
Correction, I think we do know, it’s the treasury and financial establishment asserting its influence to ensure a continuation of austerity economics. If Burnham listens to them he’s going to fall at the the first hurdle.
