If he does go in, he's a warmongering, grandstanding wannabe prepping for an election.
He can't win.
As somebody said earlier, the benchmark needs to be what can we do that will improve the situation? To actually make things better? Have we ever made anything better, anywhere in the Middle East? No! And thats not about to change now.
I believe Blair went in to Iraq and Afghanistan for what in his twisted, messianic head were the right reasons. And he absolutely refused to countenance any warnings about the absolute disaster the whole adventure would turn out to be? Plenty of people were warning about unleashing sectarian civil war on the region. Did he listen? Of course not! He thinks he's god! And surely even the most pessimistic voices never envisaged this!
Our policy in the region has been an unmitigated disaster for about 100 years. We need to get over our colonial instincts, and just let them get on with it! If they want to butcher each other, then so be it! If we want to appease our liberal, post-colonial guilt - fine - keep sending aid. Start accepting refugees.
But any military involvement will be the same disaster as it has always been. I'd put my house on it only inflaming the situation further. If thats at all possible. We need to completely extricate ourselves front the entire region, and just let them get on with it!!!
We need to completely extricate ourselves front the entire region, and just let them get on with it!!!
And stop providing weapons, directly or indirectly...
I can't see how this will ever end. For every extremist killed there will be a hundred born who see him as a martyr. I feel sorry for the peaceful muslims, who are in the majority. We will probably bomb some region out of existence before long and they will be the ones suffering.
And stop providing weapons, directly or indirectly...
And buying their oil, and supporting medieval monarchies like Saudi Arabia, Dubai and Qatar, and turning a blind eye to Israeli atrocities etc....
Whatever happens, I do hope that those from britain who went over to lend a hand are at the very least expelled from the UK.
see all that bickering and political recriminations up there ^^
that's exactly what the murderers want to achieve
I fear another war is on the horizon. And it'll be much bigger than those that came before it.
Agreed. & I suspect it was near inevitable as soon as IS achieved some kind of traction. As soon as IS were strong enough to attack the US/UK or elsewhere, I think they'd have done it. Maybe dragging in the US was the aim, or at least a welcome side effect, of their actions re the minorities.
This one's not going to go away, and regardless of the root cause, the past can't be undone, we have to deal with how it is now.
May as well get on with it.
We need to completely extricate ourselves front the entire region, and just let them get on with it!!!
binners that wont happen though...the west has been meddling in the region simply because of what's under the sand...if the locals are busy killing each other then the region becomes too dangerous for the west to get its oil supply and everything grinds to a halt.
On the plus side my overtime will go through the roof if the yanks start firing off missiles like confetti
Whatever happens, I do hope that those from britain who went over to lend a hand are at the very least expelled from the UK.
but it doesnt stop more from going over there....more needs to be done here to find the ones doing the recruiting and radicalising. they're the ones who need to be stopped first.
cut off the ISIS financial and personnel support from the UK
binners that wont happen though...the west has been meddling in the region simply because of what's under the sand...if the locals are busy killing each other then the region becomes too dangerous for the west to get its oil supply and everything grinds to a halt.
and anyway it's too late, they'd attack us anyway
like it or not, we're in a war now and the opportunity to avoid that is long past
I believe Blair went in to Iraq and Afghanistan for what in his twisted, messianic head were the right reasons. And he absolutely refused to countenance any warnings about the absolute disaster the whole adventure would turn out to be? Plenty of people were warning about unleashing sectarian civil war on the region. Did he listen? Of course not! He thinks he's god! And surely even the most pessimistic voices never envisaged this!
As we switch to our outside broadcast unit, for comment on the Middle East developments from Tony Blair, Envoy of the Quartet on the Middle East...
gonzy - you're bang on. But we need to look at the whole thing with cooler heads and look not at the intended outcomes, but the [i]actual[/i] outcomes.
We went into Iraq to secure that oil. After trillions of quid, a lot of big bangs,countless deaths, and creating absolute chaos, the biggest oil refinery in Iraq is now in the hands of a bunch of Psychopathic, genocidal, fundamentalist nut-jobs. They're tooled up to the nines, extremely well funded, and not daft. That oil we 'secured' is now in their hands, they're selling it on the black market to fund christ-only-knows-what!
So that all went well
Its difficult to imagine the situation being any worse. But thats the beauty of the Middle East. It never fails to surprise with just how much more apocalyptic it can become. I reckon that if we go in, the situation can only deteriorate further. We'll have no more success than on any other previous adventures. Just leave the mad bastards to it!
They want their caliphate? Great. It'll be like an international magnet for hardcore nut-jobs. Fantastic. And what these lot always prove is that as soon as they get their own place they then start enthusiastically having games of 'I'm more islamic than you' , then wiping each other out.
They're all absolutely mental!!! Let them get on with it
more needs to be done here to find the ones doing the recruiting and radicalising. they're the ones who need to be stopped first
Completely agree. That's why the anti terror outfits need more powers and the intelligence community needs more money.
As we switch to our outside broadcast unit, for comment on the Middle East developments from Tony Blair, Envoy of the Quartet on the Middle East...
[img] 
[/img]
I'm afraid this is largely correct, although we can probably do two things:mattjg - Member
and anyway it's too late, they'd attack us anywaylike it or not, we're in a war now and the opportunity to avoid that is long past
1. Work to eradicate domestic fundamentalists and terrorists, including those who aid and abet them.
2. Desist from any action on the ground. It can no longer be considered 'our' war and mores the point, we cannot 'win' it.
Watched one when it was a quite new phenomenon during the Iraq war, truly horrific and the images never leave your mind. No desire to see it again.
I'm generally a moderate, but I am genuinely worried about this current situation. It just seems to be moving beyond religion and just becoming a thing with a life of its own, perpetuated by social media, that sucks in youths looking for notoriety.
It doesn't take a great leap of imagination to see this kind of thing happening here in the not too distant future.
If we do nothing and they take control of Iraq and then Syria, do you think they will stop and swap their weapons for daffodils,
No they will continue on with a view to world domination.
That normally does not end well .
If you want to make sure you don't find yourself one day kneeling in the dirt waiting to be slaughtered, act now.
Some on here aren't interested in understanding why reasonably normal people do these things to each other though.
No one wants to think that they are capable of doing it is why folk do not want to think that ordinary folk do it.
When it is on state scale of industrial slaughter - WW2 genocide then ordinary folk do to heinous things - this conflict it is the ubber zealots alone doing it IMHO.
Given that Tony Blair abused Parliamentary Process and went to war, and David Cameron actually gave Parliament its say and accepted the vote result, the evidence that Dave wants his own war is pretty flimsy outside the bubble of internet rhetoric and conspiracy theories.
EH ? Both had a vote on it Blair won [ due to Tory support as 1/3 of the labour party and all the lib dems [ iirc one did not vote ] voted against it
CMD did the same and he was in favour of war, he lost the vote unlike Blair he had not choice but to respect the wishes of parliament.
It doesn't take a great leap of imagination to see this kind of thing happening here in the not too distant future.
Sadly it already has with Lee Rigby
I really do believe that Jihadis are at least partly driven by sexual and emotional frustration.
you're right Binners....Dave giving his initial support to these animals in trying to topple the Syrian government was not a wise move. now that that has more or less, gone belly up these lunatics have now eyed up their next target and that is one that Blair made a complete mess of...Iraq. now they've secured most of Iraq and Syria they are in a position to exert their muscle and to show everyone in the region and outside of it that they mean business they are demonstrating the brutal lengths they are willing to go to in order to achieve their goals.
stepping in, literally, in Iraq and stepping in, from afar, in Syria has helped create the environment for them to take advantage of...stepping in now, literally or from afar would only escalate things further.
the only way to stop ISIS is to stop the oil they are selling from reaching their buyers, and cut off outside financial support for them from outside the region, their support from outside the region from the fundamentalists who are sending them fresh recruits to wage their war also need to be stopped. cutting off their financial and personnel supply channels and supporters is the only way to weaken them.
If we do nothing and they take control of Iraq and then Syria, do you think they will stop and swap the weapons for daffodils,
Well if they get anywhere nearer the Israeli border, near enough to launch any kind of significant attack, I think the reaction in Tel Aviv will be predictable enough. They're not in the mood for ****ing about at the moment, and as we've seen, they're pretty damn effective!!!
Let the Americans keep sending them squadrons of F-16's and enough ammo to wipe out a sub-continent, and they'll soon have the whole thing sorted. Its nowt to do with us
2. Desist from any action on the ground. It can no longer be considered 'our' war and mores the point, we cannot 'win' it.
Agreed. Hopefully the drones can do the heavy lifting (I presume the withdrawal from Afghanistan is largely because nowadays drones can do a lot of that work) and when necessary the boots on the ground can be filled by peoples more local.
I think you're right it won't be 'won', but maybe it can be contained, in a perpetual game of whack-a-mole.
@gonzy and @binners the West has a legitimate interest in seeing a stable supply of oil given how important that is for pretty much everything we do. I am no fan of fracking but one of the reasons the US (and UK) are perusing it is to become less or totaly non reliant upon Middle Eastern oil.
We have peaceful oil supply nations in the GCC.
ISIS has grown out of the Syrian civil war in which the West was not involved.
We could not intervene in Syria, we can intervene in Iraq
We cannot ignore the region, if we did we would sooner or later face an interruption of oil supplies or an encroachment into Europe of these radicals. I don;t think Turkey is too far away. it's currently pacifying ISIS by allowing westerners into Syria to fight with ISIS and I understand allowing ISIS to sell oil through Turkey.
cut off the ISIS financial and personnel support from the UK
An admirable aim, but it won't make any difference in the grand scheme of things. I think the financial and personnel support from the UK is probably a drop in the ocean compared to that coming from the likes of Saudi and the other Sunni arabian regimes.
I really do believe that Jihadis are at least partly driven by sexual and emotional frustration.
I think it's anger. They always seem bloody angry!
The Islamic State.
Herd them all in to a big corral in the middle of the desert.
Drop the bomb. Exterminate the brutes.
(I presume the withdrawal from Afghanistan is largely because nowadays drones can do a lot of that work
@mattjg, I think Afgan withdrawal was because the US/UK public had had enough. News stories are suggesting the Taliban are taking back over, the truth is they (Afgans) have never been concquered in their history
[quote=Mr Woppit ]
Drop the bomb. Exterminate the brutes.
how would that make 'us' any better?
had enough ... of soldiers coming home in body bags and wheelchairs I think
I suspect the fight continues, but by machine
AFAIK the Taliban were not, on the whole, Afghans.
But anyway past performance does not necessarily predict the future.
Anyway I don't know for sure, just guessing.
I really do believe that Jihadis are at least partly driven by sexual and emotional frustration.
I think it's anger. They always seem bloody angry!
They're always very shouty too! All that ALLAH AKBAAAAAAAAAAAR!!!!! nonsense. Perhaps its the combination of itchy beards, shouting-induced sore throat, lack of access to pornography, and an absence of bacon buttes.
Lets be honest, thats a pretty horrendous combination. Add in all that sand, when you're wearing what's effectively a dress, and imagine thaw sweaty, sandy arse you'll end up with. Its no wonder they're so bloody angry!
Perhaps we shouldn't be dropping aid, we should be littering the area with moisturiser, strepsels, unsmoked back, and copies of Razzle?
Strange isnt it that the West condemns Israel for smashing Hamas and we all seem to be calling for ISIS to be wiped out.
The beheading in my mind was done out of desperation, where they have ruled the roost in Iraq and Syria by being brutal and rolling over everything in their path suddenly death comes silently from above. Seeing your mates vapourised with no warning must be terrifying. That is going to make you think twice about what you are doing.
So matey in desperation and trying to bolster his own forces tells his followers that he can stop the Americans, all he has done is sign his own death warrant, they will know who he is by now. If anything it will bring more air strikes not less.
I really do believe that Jihadis are at least partly driven by sexual and emotional frustration.
Like all young men?
I really do believe that Jihadis are at least partly driven by sexual and emotional frustration.
I think it's anger. They always seem bloody angry!
too right, I get itchy with 4 days growth, a compulsory beard would and I'd be a nutter too
.Dave giving his initial support to these animals in trying to topple the Syrian government was not a wise move.
@gonzy - I don't know if Cameron was proposing helping ISIS or the "other" rebels inc Palastinians who where fighting Assad, I really don't know. Cameron was trying to stop the deaths of civilians which was into the 100,000+ range. My view is that whilst Assad is pretty horrible like Hussein he was/is better than the alternative. Shows the difficulties of getting involved.
Reason like that and you could almost begin to feel sorry for them.binners - Member
I really do believe that Jihadis are at least partly driven by sexual and emotional frustration.
I think it's anger. They always seem bloody angry!
They're always very shouty too! All that ALLAH AKBAAAAAAAAAAAR!!!!! nonsense. Perhaps its the combination of itchy beards, shouting-induced sore throat, lack of access to pornography, and an absence of bacon buttes.Lets be honest, thats a pretty horrendous combination.
Perhaps we shouldn't be dropping aid, we should be littering the area with moisturiser, streusels, unsmoked back, and copies of Razzle?
As you say, Alan's Snack Bar is getting plenty of publicity. It's an ill wind and all that.
I've said this before here. Courtesy of rotten & steak & cheese circa 2002/2003 my curiosity allowed me to watch dial up videos of the very worst kind of atrocities.
I never appreciated the value and effect of watching stuff from Bosnia/ Iraq-1st time- and various grim suicides at the time. In the long term I believe it's made me a kinder person, but the old adage is true: Something seen can never be unseen.
Watch it, you will never cleanse the images from your memory but it's nothing more significant than some more obscure Don mcCullin or exhibits at genocide/holocaust memorial centres.
I can't watch anything like this - I remember seeing the footage of David Howes and Derek Wood being dragged from their car in Belfast in the 1980s and that image has stuck with me to this day.
Guys I think it's too soon for all this joking about. James Foley has had his head cut off.
Neither funny nor insightfulI really do believe that Jihadis are at least partly driven by sexual and emotional frustration
We have peaceful oil supply nations in the GCC.
I think you are confusing repressive non democratic countries and peaceful. Most of the arab nations were "peaceful" pre the arab spring
We could call China and North Korea peaceful whilst we are at it.
I am not sure what your point is tbh
Its difficult to imagine the situation being any worse. But thats the beauty of the Middle East. It never fails to surprise with just how much more apocalyptic it can become. I reckon that if we go in, the situation can only deteriorate further. We'll have no more success than on any other previous adventures. Just leave the mad bastards to it!They want their caliphate? Great. It'll be like an international magnet for hardcore nut-jobs. Fantastic. And what these lot always prove is that as soon as they get their own place they then start enthusiastically having games of 'I'm more islamic than you' , then wiping each other out.
You know, I could kind of almost agree. However, I rather like the Kurds having worked with some and having a few friends who are Kurds. So in this instance I'm pretty happy about arming them to the teeth, couldn't meet a bunch of nicer people.
I doubt we will have kurdish fighters using our own weapons against us, so if there's a good chance that the kurds can push back ISIS without losing our own anti-tank weapons or whatever to ISIS then I couldn't care less.
how would that make 'us' any better?
You're just asking me to feel bad about scraping dogshit off my shoe.
😈
It's a paradox. I for one, don't want to see the images or video (I can remember the IRA killings another poster alludes to here and I still remember them) but agree that on some level they do serve as a poignant reminder of both mortality and absolute solidarity with all other humans. There is something very de-objectifying about the spectacle.cfinnimore - Member
...I never appreciated the value and effect of watching stuff from Bosnia/ Iraq-1st time- and various grim suicides at the time. In the long term I believe it's made me a kinder person, but the old adage is true: Something seen can never be unseen.
Whilst it is not in itself a laughing matter, if we loose all humour as a result of these barbaric acts then surely they have won?jambalaya - Member
Guys I think it's too soon for all this joking about. James Foley has had his head cut off.
Tom - Absolutely agree. I'd happily arm to Kurds up to the teeth. And remember after the first Gulf war, they set up a protection zone for the Kurds. So that if Sadaam came anywhere near them, he knew what he'd get. Surely its not beyond us, with all the military hardware at our disposal, to do the same again?
Lets be honest. This caliphate already exists. Whether we like it or not. Its the facts on the ground that count. So why not acknowledge that, and regard its present borders as exactly that. They do!
Or we could have a massive war - and this would be a proper one, this time! - and like I said earlier, I'd put my house on the end result being either what we've got now, or (if it were possible) something even worse
