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So Alpkit are the new The North Face?
I like Alpkit. I like the whole premise of them, but I'm worried for them that they have got it wrong, and that they would disappear like many others. And rather selfishly I don't want that to happen. Nuff said,can we move on.
but I’m worried for them that they have got it wrong, and that they would disappear like many others.
Certainly growing, total assets less current liabilities:
2017 - £1,158,722
2016 - £937,070
2015 - £609,472
2014 - £326,344
2013 - £247,036
So Alpkit are the new The North Face?
Other examples are available.
All the punter sees is the "brand" unless you do a bit of Bellingcatfishing. Companies get bought by venture capitalists or other companies who might move their head offices, design centres and manufacturing, so they are effectively a different company. The most extreme example of this is Abercrombie and Fitch which was an upmarket sporting goods store in New York that went bankrupt and whose name and mailing list was bought by a company from Texas and subsequently sold to a chain based in Ohio. Somehow they've hung on to some sort of up-market preppy image despite selling the usual casual t-shirts and stuff.
Superdry is another, British, example - based in Cheltenham they managed to affect a crypto-Japanese image while also flogging the usual sweat shirts and other junk at a hyper-inflated price. Later they switched from Japanese to vintage "Americana" like some sort of diner.
Berghaus are probably closer to Alpkit - sound Norwegian, but British. Used to be top quality but now rather variable. And of course that company who were taken over by Sports Direct and the brand used on shoes that look fantastic value but don't fit anybody.
You say that, but no sign of it declining significantly yet.
I said the writing is on the wall. I didn't say anybody was reading it (yet).
I said the writing is on the wall
Well the writing in their accounts is telling a different story, one of a growing company...
@Nico - Berghaus have been around for a very long time, well over 30 years. Their top end stuff is still excellent and their cheaper stuff is okay for popping to the shops. They've been like that for a while now.
How they've got to where they are is a very different story to AlpKit's.
... and they sound German.
Berghaus are probably closer to Alpkit – sound Norwegian, but British. Used to be top quality but now rather variable.
Berghaus were never a cheap brand, in the way that Alpkit were/are. Always top kit, I have a polartec fleece from about 1992, which while a bit small for me, my Mrs still wears it now and then. Also, a 1995 Extrem rucksack, still in use. I had an Extrem shell, which I left in The Boatyard in Barbados,(gutted) which I reckon will still being worn today!
If you buy the more expensive Berghaus gear, it's still good.
Besides, they are almost Norwegian, as they started in Newcastle.:)
Quite a few of the established companies started out doing mainly down eg Rab and ME. Similar to Alpkit.
..but very different business models!
The direct comparisons just don't work. On a good day it's apples vs bananas.
Or cherries and tomato’s
Or cheese and ham
Or Brand A and Brand B
Same shit, different colour.
but I’m worried for them that they have got it wrong, and that they would disappear like many others
Don't think you are that worried for them - haven't you already told us you will no longer buy from them in your first post?
Nuff said,can we move on.
Hey, you started it 🙂
I don't think there are any direct comparisons, and I think that's the reason Alpkit done so well at the start.
I always saw them as a bit like On One before they went to shit. Relatively small company selling decent kit at great prices. Good luck to them, just hope they don’t go the same way.
I've an Alpkit Filo Jacket from something like seven years ago when it was £80. It gets occasional but regular use and is still fine. The "fit" is odd but I suspect it's because of the low power fill forcing things. The low power fill also tends to mean that the fabric is heavier to keep the feathers in. At £80 I'm not worried about damaging it.
I do agree that Alpkit are no longer in the "cheap and cheerful" category - doing a technical comparison between them and say PHD and while PHD come out as being more expensive you'll get a lighter or warmer product. If I'm buying something that has to "perform" then I'll go PHD, it will be lighter for a given warmth and pack smaller but if I want something for general dossing about then Alpkit are fine.
I suspect that Alpkit's "generic" rebranded kit is bought some months ahead in USD and their prices reflect currency fluctuations so if the pound is strong at the time of purchase then the price "for that batch/container" will be low and vice-versa.
I read this thread yesterday and today the zip on my Heiko jacket broke. Coincidence? I think not. Tinfoil hat time
[i]My original Filo was 700 fill, so they are putting less in as well.[/i]
Fill Power is the fluffyness and therefore warmth of the down, not how much filling they are adding to the jacket. Higher fill power means less is needed and therefore warmer and more packable, and more expensive.
I’ve an Alpkit Filo Jacket from something like seven years ago when it was £80. It gets occasional but regular use and is still fine. The “fit” is odd but I suspect it’s because of the low power fill forcing things. The low power fill also tends to mean that the fabric is heavier to keep the feathers in. At £80 I’m not worried about damaging it.
I don't think the fabric weight has anything to do with the fill power. In fact using a heavier fabric actually inhibits the ability of the down to loft effectively - it's pushing against greater resistance. The second incarnation of the Filoment was appreciably loftier than the first one, mostly because the fabric was lighter - the fill power and quantity of down was around the same.
There's slightly more to it than that, ratio of down to down compartment volume also makes a difference as does the outright size of down compartments and their configuration. The really light, micro-baffled jackets are generally never quite as warm as you might think because the down layer ends up being thinner generally, but also, each stich line is a cold spot, which is also not fully windproof because of the stitching.
The fit is 'odd' because the cut is weird and unsophisticated, plus it has that weird ducktail at the back, which looks plain odd.
I think what people are struggling with maybe, is that Alpkit has gone from making functional but slightly basic kit at bargain bucket prices, to making stuff that they want to be just plain good kit regardless of the cost, up to a point, and relying on their direct to consumer (no retailer margin) model to keep prices competitive.
They may be right in doing that. Or wrong. Or a mix of the two. But building a brand based mostly on cheapness, isn't necessarily the best option out there, even if consumers like paying as little as possible. I don't think that was ever Alpkit's aim and there's a lot more to them than just selling at low prices.
@BadlyWiredDog - It's the down to feather ratio that leads to heavier, well denser weave, materials in order to stop the feathers poking through. I should have said that rather than fill power though the two sort of go hand in hand.
I've one of the lightweight PHD jackets, Summerlite I think it's called, it's not a regular model line just a line available in their sales so you can't directly compare things :roll and should in theory be comparable to the Filoment lightweight jacket but in practice it's closer in warmth to the Phantac which is three times the weight. I think it (the Summerlite) is rated to zero C but I've used it a couple of degrees below when there's a light breeze and it's fine. suppose you could call it "micro baffled", I'm not sure at what size baffles that term would apply. The jacket uses very lightweight shell materials, 10d I think, whereas the Filo uses 20d. Even without a fill the two jackets would drape very differently. In fact the best way I can describe the difference between the two is that the PHD jacket hugs you whilst the Filo sits on you. That's also due to the Filo feeling like it's had to have been stuffed with down to achieve the required, but unstated, level of insulation. (I've been in -15C in the Filo and been fine so let's assume that it's somewhere in that region.)
What surprised me (though I can see some of the business logic behind it) was the move into bricks and mortar with their shops in Hathersage and Ambleside. That costs money, especially in the latter town, so there'll be some "support" from the on-line business.
I've quite a lot of Alpkit, err, kit. In the past you could almost use their stuff for prototyping in that it was cheap enough that you could take a punt to see if something worked or not and then buy something "better", whatever that means. Some of their recent lines are "almost" right, they've moved to hard, glossy (for want of a better word) straps for example. As a result the buckles don't bite into the straps so they slowly work loose, especially when off-road, and you have to constantly tug and tighten them.
Insulating garments, whether down or synthetic, work the same way as a sleeping bag in that your body heat is required to get it up to temperature. Any gaps will let cold air in so the snugger the fit the better at insulating it is.
Loose fitting insulating jackets just won't feel as warm as closer fitting items.
@BadlyWiredDog – It’s the down to feather ratio that leads to heavier, well denser weave, materials in order to stop the feathers poking through. I should have said that rather than fill power though the two sort of go hand in hand.
Weave density and fabric weight are different things. Some of the ultra-lightweight fabrics have a really high thread count, but because the threads themselves are incredibly fine, the fabric is really light. The tightness of weave together with calendaring processes stops down escaping. Or that's how I understand it anyway. It's also why down jackets tend not to be very breathable - effectively you have two layers of windproof fabric and a gap filled with down between you and the outside world.
Anyway... I think what probably matters more is that early Filos used a heavier fabric, which in turn impacted a little on their overall weight and ability to loft. Whether it used that to keep lower fill power down in place or because it was cheaper to spec and kept prices down probably doesn't really matter.
Do you have any back-up for your fabric theory, it's kind of interesting and not something I've come across before. I'm not sure you'd ever use very light fabrics with low fill power down anyway, doesn't make much sense. A bit like putting a boutique carbon seatpost on a pub bike.
ps: Not trying to be argumentative, I'm just slightly perplexed.
It all went wrong when they stopped doing the DWR Jeanius jeans for under £50
Do you have any back-up for your fabric theory, it’s kind of interesting and not something I’ve come across before.
No, it's something I remember from the 1980s or so. I could well have mistaken "heavier/lighter weave" for "heavier/lighter fabric.
Note that it's not usually the down that escapes but the feathers in the mix since they have stronger quills which can push through the fabric. It's also the reason low quality down mixes can feel scratchy through the fabric, it's the quills on the feathers.
I read this thread yesterday and today the zip on my Heiko jacket broke. Coincidence? I think not. Tinfoil hat time
Update to this. I emailed alpkit asking if they do a repair service. They must have cross checked my email against order history as they came straight back and, to my surprise, told me that it was still in warranty. They sent a free returns label and this week sent a brand new replacement jacket as mine wasn't a viable repair. Kept on touch with me throughout by phone and email. No chasing, no hassle. Although in warranty my old jacket had been well used and abused.
Excellent service.
Excellent service.
Yep, I've used their service department a few times for spares etc and always very impressed.
NB Use my Heiko jacket all the time, commute to work in it once the temp drops below 10C.
I’ve used Alpkit stuff for a long time, from big Himalayan peaks to family camping in the UK.
They’ve always sold rebadged Chinese stuff you can now get on Alibaba like the stoves and headtorches but make and design plenty of their own kit too.
The bikepacking kit is pretty good for the price and made in the UK. The customisation service is excellent. I’ve not ridden them, but people say good things about their bikes. I’m happily using some Love Mud bits on my bikepacking rig and it’s fine value for money.
Businesses and brands go down the tubes when the original owners sell out and the new ones squeeze and squeeze to extract maximum profit without giving a toss about the heritage, history or the people who work there. We all know that, right? What Sports Direct did to Karrimor was a disgrace.
Until then, I’m happy to carry on buying from them.
What Sports Direct did to Karrimor was a disgrace.
I always thought karrimore went bust and sports direct just purchased the name to trade under after it had been dormant for years. Bayou to stand corrected though if I got that wrong
What Sports Direct did to Karrimor was a disgrace.
I always thought karrimore went bust and sports direct just purchased the name to trade under after it had been dormant for years. Happy to stand corrected though if I got that wrong
Yes. Pretty much.
After a few years of refusing to buy from them I’ve now gone back to them, good kit at good prices.... However I (yes stupidly lived in ignorance until recently) am concerned about where/how they source the down for their kit, I own a down sleeping bag and 2 x down jackets (purchased before I found that some companies use down plucked from live animals) i’d like to see their name on here
www.trackmydown.com
What Sports Direct did to the Karrimor name was a disgrace, perhaps. Certainly made a lot of my kit worthless (I used to work near the factory shop)
I had a pair of KSB Boots in 1998 that were complete rubbish so there's only so much blame to be laid at the door of Mike Ashley.
I always thought karrimore went bust and sports direct just purchased the name to trade under after it had been dormant for years. Happy to stand corrected though if I got that wrong
No, that's correct. Mike Ashley just purchased and used the name of a respected brand, and destroyed it's reputation.
I had a pair of KSB Boots in 1998 that were complete rubbish so there’s only so much blame to be laid at the door of Mike Ashley.
Yeah right, your opinion of those boots pretty much lets Mike Ashley off the hook :-).
I think they went bust in 2004 before they became a name for cheap sports direct crap. They generally made good stuff, so perhaps you picked up a dodgy pair? Whatever, I'm doubting that your opinion of those boots had much of a factor in the brands demise. I believe it was something to do with a badly conceived strategy - planning to go into retail after purchasing another company which was in administration.
When a manufacturer becomes a trendy high-street name that they begin to prioritise the badge over outright quality? Cf. North Face.
NF has two distinct product lines. The mass market profitable stuff and then the niche very expensive but very high quality range. I suspect despite the price though they dont make a mass of money on it.
After a few years of refusing to buy from them I’ve now gone back to them, good kit at good prices…. However I (yes stupidly lived in ignorance until recently) am concerned about where/how they source the down for their kit, I own a down sleeping bag and 2 x down jackets (purchased before I found that some companies use down plucked from live animals) i’d like to see their name on here
There are quite a few outdoor brands who've made serious efforts to make sure their down is ethically sourced and traceable who aren't on that list, notably Mountain Equipment and Patagonia, but plenty of others including major northern European - Scandi and German brands.
This - link below - is quite a good article on outdoor brands and down which puts a lot of it in context. It's also worth taking a look at Mountain Equipment's Down Codex site. They did a shed-load of work digging into and certifying their down supply chain:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/down-jackets-clothing-animal-welfare-investigation