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So I had to visit A&E yesterday with suspected heart issues. Got the all clear. However left with some additional concerns.
Basically the doc came in to take my blood. In one hand he has the needle and extraction tube, the other the packet it came out of. Puts the needle on the table, puts the wrapper in the bin, then announces he's cut his hand. Blood pissing out, he washes it and goes to get a plaster.
Anyways he comes back in, and i ask what happened and he says he stabbed himself. I ask him to confirm it's not with the needle he's about to stick in my arm that's still on the table and he says no, it was another needle, and it was the collection tube end he'd stabbed himself with.
I'm a bit stressed at this point so don't argue any more and he takes the blood and leaves. And I start thinking, 'hang about, if it wasn't that kit he cut himself on then why did he walk in with it, then realise he'd cut himself'. And besides, he shouldn't be touching stuff he's taking my blood with if he's got bleeding hands
Anyway, I speak to the nurse and she says she'll speak to the doctor in charge. At the end of my visit the boss appears with doctor who took the blood and says 'don't worry, zero risk of infection' . I didn't feel in a position at that point to tell him what I saw with my own eyes, given the guy was standing right next to him
So reflecting today I am worried. I have health anxiety at best of times, and imo I'm due an explanation as to why there is 'zero risk' . As far as I can tell there was only ever one needle kit, and i can't see how it's possible that you can cut yourself on the bit that collects the blood!
Aibu?
yes
The doc was clumsy and daft but ( usually) the connector between the bit that goes into you and the bit that collects the blood has a needle in it. there are various different types of kit some 2 part some 3 part but he wouldn't even have unsheathed the needle that goes into you at that point. He still shouldn't have stuck himself tho.
He should have used a new kit tho if he contaminated it - not from risk to you tho - there is zero risk to you
Thanks tj. Looked to me like the needle was already connected to the tube when he took it out the packet. I appreciate there is a needle in the collection tube but how is it possible to cut yourself with it unless you ram your finger in there?
Wouldn't it be protocol to ditch the thing you've just cut yourself on. Rather than stick the other end in the patient?
Is it not possible to jab yourself with the patient end. The sheeth was a flimsy rubber thing, not a plastic ' lid' or similar.
Either way I appreciate your input 👌
Wouldn't it be protocol to ditch the thing you've just cut yourself on. Rather than stick the other end in the patient?
Yes but no risk to you just potential for slight contamination of the sample
I appreciate there is a needle in the collection tube but how is it possible to cut yourself with it unless you ram your finger in there?
Depends on the design - they vary
So here's a twist. I spoke to A&E to ask for rational. They have it recorded and a report. Apparently the doc told the boss he cut his hand whilst treating another patient, and had a plaster and a glove on by the time he came to see me
An utter lie..I literally saw him wash the blood off his hand then disappeared for a plaster.
Yes, sounds poor and from experience some doctors and nursing staff can make errors and then be less than transparent about circumstances.
But what do you want to happen now? Sounds like you can't be happy with their explanation and certainly not with TJ's, who, experienced as they are wasn't there and didn't actually see it. So are you looking for a bigger investigation, etc., or just to get yourself tested to make sure you've not been infected yourself?
But what do you want to happen now?
I want them to explain to me if they still think it's no risk based on actual facts rather than the made up version of events from the doctor. If they do then fair enough. If not then there is a short window whereby I can get treatment to mitigate the risk
Tj's explanation gives me some reassurance, and I very much value his input, however if the hospital has made a risk decision based on false information then I think they should review that
Ultimately the doc lying out his arse doesn't fill me with confidence. They didn't know how to respond when I pointed out how would I have known he'd cut his hand if he had a glove on?
Don't mind genuine mistakes in a pressurised environment, but lying about it is not acceptable
At the risk of this being a 'tell me what I want to hear', I don't think anything they'll say now is going to convince you, if the original doctor lied then you're not going to believe them if they come back and say 'yes they lied but don't worry, it's still no risk'.
The only way they'll now say for certain if the doc was lying or not is by checking back and that will take time. I believe (and BBC Casualty =/= evidence) that any needlestick injury is recorded for this reason so do they have a record of the one that they had when they came in to treat you and you noticed them bleeding? Whether recorded or not, did anyone assist with the plaster for the original one, and so on?
Might be a few hours, IME likely to take longer once it's a complaint and someone from Patient Liaison steps in to investigate, etc.
And in this time you'll be festering and missing chance to mitigate any risk or get tested, etc.
There's no halfway on this IMHO - if you complain about it then it'll get investigated for the lack of procedure and the lying, won't be a casual ask around in the Dept. If you request a test / mitigating treatment, suspect that'll happen too anyway. So get the test requested and set your mind at rest.
The only way they'll now say for certain if the doc was lying or not is by checking back and that will take time
As far as I can see the only way they can tell given its his word against mine is by checking their ward cctv, which they won't do obviously, but it would clearly show he entered my cubicle without gloves on!
Realistically if their response is ' you've been assessed as low risk' then there ain't much i can do even if they have assessed on misinformation
Either way I'll be putting in a complaint. If the doc is working like that and then lying about it, he shouldn't be working there imo. Being clumsy and not following protocol is one thing, being dishonest is another
It's pretty unlikely you'll get a rapid investigation followed by a 'yes, he lied'. Large bureaucracies just don't work that way - as we all know. The bleeder has already doubled down and lied. He's going to have to admit lying and all that entails and his colleagues are going to have to join in to find the truth (you can't handle the truth etc) and they usually defend their own in these cases. All this has to happen quickly but it won't. They'll tie you up in opaque processes for months until you just bugger off or they miraculously find no case to answer.
Probably 100% correct boblo
I'm kinda pissed off. If he'd told the truth the consultant woukd probably have still said ' zero risk' and I wouldn't be sweating about it now.
However if the guy is lying in official hospital investigations he shouldn't be working there, so I still think it's worth an official complaint. Even if it's to ensure he take more Care n future
Very low risk to you, so don't sweat about it. Feel free to complain, might help. It's unlikely you've been infected by anything. You are exposed to way more germs and nasties when riding your MTB.
I complained about them missing massive fractures to my pelvis and hip socket - got sent home on morphine. What I didn't know I was at massive risk of an internal bleed or blood clots, and I then did two three hour flights in the week after, plus sat round for weeks. It was a right battle 6 weeks later to get them to CT scan me as second x-ray came back fine. I had massive fractures ! I complained and got a two page letter saying sorry lots of times. Apparently my fault for not screaming in agony and being able to 'stand'.
What's the worst that could happen... even if you did get a dot of his blood? (you didn't btw).
Did the doctor look like he was at death's door? People exchange bodily fluids all the time and not everyone dies.
What's the worst that could happen... even if you did get a dot of his blood? (you didn't btw).
Did the doctor look like he was at death's door? People exchange bodily fluids all the time and not everyone dies.
We'll the issue is he lied. If he lies about this, what else does he lie about...?
I think you should consider this:
1. the probability of an infection from a random doctor to patient from a needle stick is pretty low even if they stuck the same pointy end in both of you. The infection rate IF he was actually infected himself for HIV is ~0.3%, for HepC is <1.8%, although HepB is higher (around 30%). But HepB vaccination is effectively mandatory for doctors in the NHS - so you can pretty much ignore that. The rates of HIV (<0.2%) and HepC (0.12%) infection amongst healthcare staff is low so you need to multiply those numbers together to determine the overall risk. So if 100,000 people who were spiked by a contaminated needle from a random health worker, roughly 2 would get HepC. You need to increase it to one million people to get single digit HIV cases, and high vaccination rates in staff probably makes HepB even less likely. Post exposure profalaxis will not be side effect free.
2. if you insist on being tested, the process involves multiple blood tests weeks apart - if you are an anxious person that wait will be pretty horrible. Now obviously if you are going to convince yourself that you do have some condition anyway then perhaps it’s no different but if you talk them into testing you might end making the risk seem more real in your head.
3. There seems to be no logical reason for even the most incompetent doctor to put an unsheathed needle down on the table, walk away and come back and want to put it into the patient. There’s also no real time saving from unsheathing the needle before walking into your cubicle and walking about with a pointy needles would be an unusual practice likely to get bollocked by his colleagues - so my working assumption is what you thought was a needle was actually still sheathed so the bit that goes into you was not exposed to him (or the table). Who knows what he cut himself on, there’s lots of injection moulded plastics involved and a tiny percent of them will end up with some moulding anomaly that leaves a sharp edge.
4. It is odd to me that he didn’t just bin it if he has (a) touched it with his bleeding hand and/or (b) had to put it down on a table. Of course tired and harassed doctors do stupid stuff. But it’s even more odd to me that you clearly identified a cross contamination issue and still consented to the rest of the blood draw. It wasn’t you were too scared to speak up - because you did both before and after he “potentially infected you”.
5. However if you are certain he lied to you that in some ways is much worse than any infection risk. But you’d need to be pretty determined to see through any investigation and cover-up. If he is proven to have lied what outcome would you want? My guess is that if he’s not being straightforward the problem isn’t entirely him but is a cultural challenge across the whole team/hospital/trust/NHS where do you stop? And how many meetings do you want to go to where the person the other side is thinking - “if you knew it was a risk why didn’t you stop him”.
What's the worst that could happen... even if you did get a dot of his blood? (you didn't btw).
Well the worst that could happen is I get a disease like hep c. Is it likely, admittedly no. However we don't know exactly what happened or what the doc stabbed himself with as he's provided a false account of the situation to cover his own back. If there was no risk created, and protocol was followed, why lie to his superior?
Even me, being a massive hypochondriac realises the risk is low. However if there is ANY risk of exposure I feel it should be assessed correctly based on facts and recorded correctly, like any other incident of this nature. If the consultant bases his decision on what actually happened (and in all likelihood he would reach the same conclusion as tj) then fair enough
I don't think I should have to rely on an mtb forum (as reassuring as tj's post is) to provide confidence I've not been put in harms way
I'm afraid to say that your memory of this event is highly unlikely to be reliable, even if you think it is. People under stress do not make reliable memories. So I'm afraid that you cannot be certain that he is lying.
The second thing to say is that this would likely come down to your word against his with all the caveats given above. It would take a lot of time and effort on both your, and the hospital, and this doctor's part, and it's very unlikely to have a satisfactory outcome.
If I were your GP and you were worried, I'd be happy to arrange HIV and hepatitis testing for you both now and in six weeks time in order to set your mind at rest.
Hi poly
On points 4 and 5
Yeah I wasn't thinking clearly at the time. He'd literally just said ' yeah I think this sounds like a cardiac issue' so my head was not in a good place.
When I asked him at the time his response seemed genuine and I didn't really think it through correlating what he had had said to what I had seen with my own eyes
It's only after I calmed down that I felt something didn't quite add up. And the detail on the report confirms this
On point one, yes the key thing to remember is that rates of infection in general public, let alone nhs workers is very low. Potentially slightly higher for overseas staff, but still low
I'm afraid to say that your memory of this event is highly unlikely to be reliable, even if you think it is
I was stressed but I didn't imagine him washing his hands in front of me! To my earlier point, however, how would I know he'd cut his hand if he turned up with gloves on?
I'm 100% sure what is in the report is not what occured. As to whether I can prove it, I can't. If they look at the ward cctv they'd quickly see he's telling porkies. I appreciate that's not going to happen, nor am I going to waste time requesting they check
As someone who doesn't have health anxiety, I can't really see much of a problem here, He could have cut his hand on the packaging, anything really and went to wash his hands and put a plaster on. Putting it politely, your heightened stress of thinking your 'heart is up the duff' probably didn't help. Mistakes do happen and people do forget to follow the correct procedure, especially when it's a simple routine blood sample.
I'm 100% sure what is in the report is not what occured.
And that is also very common when we've been under stress I'm afraid.
And that is also very common when we've been under stress I'm afraid.
So if he turned up already wearing gloves, how did I know he'd cut his hand? I wouldn't have seen a plaster or blood so would have had no way of knowing would I?
I am not a doctor.
I am confident that the risk presented to you was zero, or as close to vanishingly unlikely as makes no odds. I, of course, may be wrong.
I would however expect a formal statement if a doctor walked in to see me whilst pissing blood all over the shop rather than treating their own injury first. With the caveat as Kramer says that my recollection might not be 100%, I'd want that to be accurate, hell explicitly because I may have misinterpreted the situation.
Are you being unreasonable in your self-confessed hypochondria, yes and you know you are. Are you being unreasonable in wanting an explanation for what happened, no, I'm with you on that side of things. TJ will know this far better than I but there is surely a process to be followed.
IMHO, etc.
I'm afraid to say that your memory of this event is highly unlikely to be reliable, even if you think it is. People under stress do not make reliable memories. So I'm afraid that you cannot be certain that he is lying.
Of course, the same also applies to the Dr! Working in A&E is a highly stressful environment and if he cut his own finger that’s some extra stress. If he hadn’t been following protocol the very letter it’s entirely possible that he then had even more stress. If he did just needlestick himself on another patient that would be yet more stress.
The second thing to say is that this would likely come down to your word against his with all the caveats given above. It would take a lot of time and effort on both your, and the hospital, and this doctor's part, and it's very unlikely to have a satisfactory outcome.
that is however the shittest reason not to flag up either dangerous practice of dishonesty in the medical profession! In fact, it’s probably precisely that attitude which results in what can be perceived as a coverup culture. Sweep it under the rug and hope we don’t need to tackle the actual underlying cause.
If I were your GP and you were worried, I'd be happy to arrange HIV and hepatitis testing for you both now and in six weeks time in order to set your mind at rest.
perhaps this is the most useful advice, while GPs are not there to act as counsellors they will at least be able to understand what happened and I suspect might physically have the same type of sample tube etc to show the OP where/how you might cut yourself, which bits of the set actually are capped etc and which may reassure him.
You are assuming the doctor lied, rather than mis-remembered the situation too.
I'm assuming it is wholly possible they'd been on shift for numerous hours, probably more than usual over a bank holiday weekend. You were likely one of numerous patients seen that day, when asked it about it after the event, they probably explained based on what they should have done rather than what happened. But I for one have a poor memory when sleep deprived, so I'm guessing others might too.
If you are really concerned then get a test for HepC/other blood born diseases. Chances are, you'll be fine and the thing you really need to worry about is crossing the road or driving to the blood test!
You are assuming the doctor lied, rather than mis-remembered the situation too.
This is a fair comment.
So yeah he potentially misremembered rather than directly lied to avoid getting into trouble.
My intention when i flagged this was not to call out the guy for what he did. It was to get comfort in my own mind that I wasn't at risk. I expect the hospital to make the risk assessment and I'd be happy with that if it's based on what actually happened.. Hell if they turned round and said 'yeah he jabbed himself with the same needle but I can assure you you still aren't getting anytjing' then I'd go away happy
Also, I want it on record that my recollection of the event was significantly different than his, because, as unlikely as it will be, if I end up with anything I will have some recourse.
Puncturing with the other end of the needle, whilst not ideal, i dont think poses a risk as its a 1 way vacuum. But either way he shouldn't be handling sterile equipment with bleeding hands
As I've said, if the report had confirmed something along lines of 'doc jabbed himself with vacuum end, zero risk to patient' I'd be good. But what it actually said was 'zero risk to patient as gloves were worn prior to touching any of the equipment', which im very confident is factually incorrect..no mention was made of what part of the kit he gouged himself on
Also..should be pointed out the doc didn't raise this with the guy in charge. I flagged this to a nurse.
So have you raised a complaint yet and started the process of getting tested and mitigating?
Or still seeking opinions from people that weren't there?
**
AIBU
No, based on what you've said there is a non-zero chance despite what others may say that you have been 'in contact with' another person's blood. You also believe that procedures weren't followed and/or you've been lied to about procedures being followed. All good reasons to stop prevaricating and get on with it.
<end thread>
So have you raised a complaint yet and started the process of getting tested and mitigating?
Actually yes I have..but here nothing that'll be done within the window to do anything about it.
Sorry FunkyDunc I had to delete you post, it was causing coding issues not matter what I did.
I'm afraid to say that your memory of this event is highly unlikely to be reliable, even if you think it is. People under stress do not make reliable memories. So I'm afraid that you cannot be certain that he is lying.
I must have imagined the resident doctor who checked patients' notes and held sheets of those notes in her mouth before putting them back in the file, when my father was ill over Xmas. Even the lowest paid factory worker in the food industry knows not to do crap like that.
**** me. I was going to post that you are quite right to be pissed about the doctor lying, but that you have sod all chance of getting any action on it They will just close ranks and gaslight you.
And lo it seems to be happening, in real time, on this thread..... I never expected it to be that blatant TBH.
Happens all the time. My son had kidney problems and went for loads of tests as a wean. After one of them the specialist sent a letter saying everything was normal and no action was needed. We queried/ corrected this and about two weeks later they sent a new letter, backdated by two weeks, saying that he only had one kidney with only 60% function and we needed to do X,y,z to keep him going. I guess they removed the original letter from the file and pretended the new one had been sent instead.
Pricks.
Or, perhaps we were just stressed and incorrectly recall receiving the first letter due to unreliable memories.....🙄
Tbh that kinda puts my hypochondria into perspective!
I actually mentioned it to my GP this morning (had an appointment about something else) and they were very much ' ah but x or y could have occured beforehand so we don't know what the exact series of events was'
It was very much questioning my recall rather than standing up and saying ' yeah that is not how things should happen'
What he did do however was clearly state that even if the guy had something and stabbed himself and then me, there was bugger all chance of me getting anything. (He was an ex a&e doc.) Which is what I would have liked to be told at the time rather than some cock and bull story which just sowed more doubt