Nickjb I’ve knickerd your post as it’s exactly how I feel.
Yep. I cancelled my long standing sub when it was made pretty clear that the forum isn’t high on the priority list as it’s the only bit I really use. I’ll happily resubscribe if that changes. As is the ads are annoying but even with a sub there are still ads and the same poor usability
£20 a year is too cheap even for digital.
The “magazine” is great and the other services have a value as well.
Whack it up to £3 a month or £24 annually and it still represents very good value.
What I don't get is that we the forum members are the content creators that drive the traffic to the site. If the traffic on the forum is the bit that creates the traffic that creates the profits then surely the forum contributors need to be looked after.
If the forum dies then no profits = people out of a job. continue to ignore the concerns of the forum poister then it will die.
I for one never look at anything else from site unless the shonky software takes me to another part of it when I immediately go back to the foirum
Did the forum not exist first?
I remember when The Forum was Matt’s mailing list. It was all a long time ago.
I'm not arguing, nobody is. We are saying WHY we wouldn't pay. Either you want our money or you don't. Sticking your head in the sand nets you nothing.
This is starting to sound like the would you pay more tax thread where people are saying that yes they would but only if... There are folks here who use the forum a lot but don't like the ads
Then just pay, the ads disappear. There only time I see ads are when it is time to sign in again. Try it, the experience is way better. This is the problem with lots of the internet now when people are so used to the time when it was all free that they don't want to pay for anything. This is why newsfeeds are all full of crap clickbait because noone wants to pay for real news or journalism but they are happy to complain about clickbait.
Yes, functionality isn't great but it works. waiting for it to get better before paying isn't going to fund it to get better and ads don't pay enough any more. Be part of the solution
To echo the sentiments above, i also cancelled my auto renew when the site kept on refusing to let me sign in. As yet I'm not inclined to change my position as too much is wrong.
Eg. I just got halfway through a review with ads getting in the way, went to sign in, couldn't find log in on the left hand menu, X button didn't work to collapse menu, so i hit back on my phone browser and the page closes. And i still don't know which 2.6" tyres to buy!
In the words of Roger Murtaugh "I'm too old for this shit...".
Then just pay, the ads disappear. There only time I see ads are when it is time to sign in again.
I have to sign in every time i visit the site, this often takes ages due to the adds not sure how having a P would solve this.
I'm almost at the point where I would pay. It's a *lot* better than the nadir, but:
- we still have the crazy tag soup going on when posting
- at least on my phone, the edit thing goes unbearably slowly at times (and is there something wrong with cut-n-paste? I'm not sure).
- editing your post after submit doesn't work properly
I think if those were fixed (especially the tag soup) I'd probably sign up now.
I pay, I get no ads, usability is fine, image, quoting, embolden functions all work, editing will get rid of all the occasionally mistakes with formatting, that frankly happen everywhere else at some point.
then there is adding a pic on a mobile the box goes off screen. Once I mange the resolve that it's impossible to add text. I have to add a comment in another post. 🤨
nickc you only have to look at the crap I post from work or that Northwind regularly posts to see that it is not an occasional problem. Fwiw, these occasional issues are confined to once or twice a year on any other forum as opposed to every hour of every day.
leffeboy - my issue isn't with the ads per se, my issue is with the shite software the site uses and not wishing to validate it. Your argument abut funding change doesn't stand up either, they had the chance with the new forum and instead of accepting it was a mess they stuck fingers in their ears and we ended up where we are today. Frankly I don't think this will change so long as valid, constructive criticism is shut down as "arguing", if you care about your business and employees you would listen to the people telling you why they won't give you their money instead of taking an arrogant I'll tell you what you want so take it and be grateful' approach to the whole thing.
Man people are tight! 😆 The answer to the issues has been given, sub and they can turn off the ads (by consequence you'd imagine that would allow then to stop fighting with the ad system and concentrate on fixing the issues, issues that then will become simple.) There isn't really a debate about chicken or the egg here, it's pretty obvious they need a helping hand.
ps, Mark, you should probably do what half the world is doing these days and set up a Patreon, and get into video content(not sure if the video bit is crucial to that). Would mean, those that want to pay more, can.
They also wilfully miss the point.....others more cynical than me would say.
Anyway, I love the adverts. Never been so balls deep in Ukrainians and Filipinos.
I keep on trying to find a way to express this
I and I guess most people visiting this site are forum posters. I have zero interest in the magazine and all the rest of it. I have never read an article or the magazine
Mark wants to be an internet publisher and is using the profits generated by the forum where the users create the content thus the profits to prop up a lossmaking business. This means the experience on the forum is far less good than other forums from a user friendly point of view. So my forum experience is made worse by this decision by Mark to monetarise the forum as much as possible. to me that is not a good thing. Now I have a choice - stay or go. I have stayed so far but many have left. go too far down this road and lose too many posters then the whole pack of cards collapses.
I feel very strongly that they have their priorities wrong. The forum should be the part they concentrate on most because its the foundation on which everything else relies upon
I ( along with the rest of the posters) am already creating profits for STW by being a content provider. To be asked to pay to create content to gain ad revenue to support a website I have no interest in Irks me.
I would pay a reasonable amount to be a forum only member. that of course would be pennies because a forum is cheap to run. I don't have that option. I can either pay a subscription to something I have no interest in to get rid of the intrusive ads, I can carry on as is or I can block all the ads. One of these options provides significant income to STW, one minimal and one none. I wonder how many folk pick the third option
I always wonder why I can’t just have the free item when I see ‘buy one get one free’ deals too
£20 a year is reasonable just for the forum TJ. Do some mental gymnastics in your head(something you are seemingly good! 😆 as evidence by the above posts) and consider the mag part as a free bit to you that you may or may not view as you choose.
And that's fair enough, but it comes back to the question of why you would pay for a bug infested heap when you know it doesn't have to be that way. I don't think it's reasonable at all tbh and clearly others don't either. FWIW I have and do pay my way on forums but I feel like I'm actually getting something for my money including owners and devs who actually listen to and engage with folk.
Look at Descent-World and SDH/Ride.io - when the forums died the whole lot went with them. If you're clever you learn from your mistakes but if you're really smart you learn from others before you make the same mistake.
Because they need a helping hand. That much is pretty obvious.
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nickc
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<div class="bbp-reply-content">I pay, I get no ads, usability is fine, image, quoting, embolden functions all work, editing will get rid of all the occasionally mistakes with formatting, that frankly happen everywhere else at some point.
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But ultimately, I’m beyond spending my time making the site work to the satisfaction of people that don’t contribute their own cash to what we do, but not out of any sense of lack of respect for those that choose not to pay but simply because I owe a lot more to those who do and so that’s where I’m spending most of my time and where I’m directing most of the energy of the people who work here.
I read this from Mark and thought what he's saying is that he's stopped trying to make the forum work.
Have I misunderstood?
£1.99 a month isn't a lot of money, as long as some of it is being spent on mending what i use most.
£1.99 a month isn’t a lot of money, as long as some of it is being spent on mending what i use most.
+1.
Like TJ, I also very infrequently read the magazine, sorry, it's just how it is. Maybe that makes me a bad person.
I read this from Mark and thought what he’s saying is that he’s stopped trying to make the forum work.
Have I misunderstood?
Well, I think you've edited very selectively in your head. The bit you quoted is quite clear that making the forum work for non-subscribers is a lower priority than everything else, like for example the user experience of people paying their £1.99.
Because they need a helping hand. That much is pretty obvious.
Is it a business or a hobby?
Because you can run it as one or the other but to expect to run it as one and survive as the other is never going to work. If it's a hobby then fine, I'm willing to donate. If it's a business then frankly I expect a return on my investment which, going by other subscribers, is never going to happen if ever.
LOL at Scotroutes illustrating the point perfectly. At some point =/= constantly.
bit of both I'd say. If you've seen the salaries mentioned in the past, that much is also obvious.
Anyhow, we get it, tighty mctightwad. 😆 You crack on with the mental gymnastics.
I would pay a reasonable amount to be a forum only member
This again is exactly like the pay more tax stuff. I would pay more tax if it didn't go to arts, infrastructure you don't like etc. This forum is part of something larger and the flavor and nature of this place will be partly due to that whole picture. For example the modding is possibly heavier than other places but it makes it more pleasant. 20quid/year is not nothing but there is also cost in maintaining membership lists and payments so it will never reduce to just the cost of hosting.
This again is exactly like the pay more tax stuff. I would pay more tax if it didn’t go to arts, infrastructure you don’t like etc.
Yip, tory mctoryville I'd say! 😆
Interesting comparison, but given STW is a commercial enterprise I'd liken it more to paying for sports as part of your Sky package even though you've no interest in it (hence it being an option and not mandatory).
lose too many posters then the whole pack of cards collapses.
I think you fundamentally misunderstand how this forum (and many like it) actually work; as opposed to the way you think it does in your head
This is turning into one of those threads where people with no access to a P&L makes wild guesses about how a business, they have only a passing knowledge of, finances itself..
I would pay a reasonable amount to be a forum only member.
How does a couple of quid a month sound? Mark has told you how to turn off the adds. And as demonstrated by this post, usability is just fine. It's like going into a car showroom, and telling them you don't want their cars, as you have no interest in them but are prepared to pay a smaller amount for say a fridge or a carpet....
How does a couple of quid a month sound? Mark has told you how to turn off the adds. And as demonstrated by this post, usability is just fine.
And as demonstrrated by these posts, that's clearly not always the case:
<div class=”bbp-reply-author”>nickc
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<div class=”bbp-reply-content”>I pay, I get no ads, usability is fine, image, quoting, embolden functions all work, editing will get rid of all the occasionally mistakes with formatting, that frankly happen everywhere else at some point.
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<div class=”bbp-reply-author”>squirrelking
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And who owns EDF Group?
France, mostly. And?
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<p>EDF is taking the risk in constructing it, owning it and operating it. CGN will be expecting a return on their investment. That 20Bn construction cost has to be clawed back somehow. Maybe if successive governments hadn’t sidestepped the issue for decades and (until recently) refused to take any stake they wouldn’t have been in such a strong negotiating position but that’s not their fault. They came in with a mad offer and someone was mad/desperate enough to accept it. Bearing in mind that present markets mean you can be selling your electricity for well below the daily wholsesale price because it was sold years in advance you can see a method to the madness. I don’t think they have a hope in hell of repeating that for Sizewell C if/when it goes ahead especially since Horizon and NuGen are negotiating much cheaper deals in exchange for a government stake.</p><p></p><p>Decommissioning liabilities are paid through the life of the station, it doesn’t just come from nowhere. Part of that strike price will be going back for that. My optimism in build times is down to the fact that (hopefully) all the technical issues that have held up the other projects have been overcome and this one can just get a straight run without having to go back to the drawing board. My personal opinion is that they have a lot at stake at Hinkley, with the previous track record they need to get this right if they ever want to sell another EPR.</p>
Once again, as with the signing in issue, if it doesn't affect them then people don't want to know.
bit of both I’d say. If you’ve seen the salaries mentioned in the past, that much is also obvious.
Anyhow, we get it, tighty mctightwad.
You crack on with the mental gymnastics.
Then if it's a hobby why is Mark so worried about the livelihoods of his employees? You can't have it both ways, either it's one or the other.
And yeah, you crack on with the usual 'I'm alright Jack' pish and those of us with grievances will just stand by and offer no constructive criticism. Or, you know, just don't contribute if you have nothing positive to add.
I do have something positive to add, subscribe, get rid of the ads, I can't think of anything more positive to the site. If they don't have to spend time maintaining the ads they can focus on other parts.
As said, it's not a chicken or the egg situation, people need to pony up for that to happen first.
As for i'm alright jack, not really, I'm just not am entitled fud like yourself. I get the bbcode issues too, it's not exactly difficult to fix your posts. Would I like it fixed, yes. But it's not a deal breaker.
Regarding something positive to add, how is, "i'm not paying, if you don't fix this, I'm just going to greet and moan then eventually piss off" constructive?
If I'm going to subscribe, I'd like to know the money is going to go some way to fixing the things that most affect me. If I subscribe, and we still have tagsoup in a year's time, I'm going to feel a bit miffed.
I browse here as much as most do I suppose. I also browse many other sites I don't pay for nor am I ever asked to. If I started paying £1.99 a month here, then another place the same, then another etc etc before I know it I'm up to a fair amount each month. If this is the only place you visit on the web or only one of a few then it might seem a bargain.
I don't read the magazine, I don't like it, not my thing. I also don't read the reviews or articles on this site as I get that content elsewhere in a better format. If the publishing side is not viable on it's own and the forum is propping up a lifestlye business for someone then good luck to them but I'm not going to finance it. Just the same as people posting on gofundme or whatever so they can go on a holdiay or get a boobjob or somethng. If you can't generate enough money out of the user base that is here to provide a decent forum and turn a profit then something is wrong.
Compare this site to pinkbike with no subscrition and ad blocker on and off. The presentation of adverts are worlds apart. Ok they have a much larger user base, but the principles are the same. If this site's owners can't be arsed with the forum side of their business then that's up to them. I often can't be arsed doing parts of my job and would rather put all my time and effort into the parts I like. However I wouldn't last long if that was my attitude and I'd be out of a job soon enough...
Nickc what have I not understonnd? Educate me as webby stuff is not something I really understand
I do know that Mark has said in the past that the ads on the forum make the money that allows for the rest of STW. ONly the forum runs at a profit.
Less forum posters = less advertising revenue = less money to pay salaries of the folk that make the rest of STW
Thus the forum is the foundation of the rest of the site. No ?
<div class="bbp-reply-author">squirrelking
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<div class="bbcode-quote">How does a couple of quid a month sound? Mark has told you how to turn off the adds. And as demonstrated by this post, usability is just fine.
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And as demonstrrated by these posts, that’s clearly not always the case: 😃</div>
yup just fine
So, if I subscribe, things might get better at some point in the future. Or they might not. Hmm. Let me think about that for a moment....
So, if I subscribe, things might get better at some point in the future. Or they might not. Hmm. Let me think about that for a moment….
Well if you subscribe things get better right then and there because you can turn the ads off, right?
I do find it amazing how people manage to moan about a service which is to all intents and purposes provided to them essentially free at the point of use.
I do have something positive to add, subscribe, get rid of the ads, I can’t think of anything more positive to the site.
I can, how about listening to the people that are saying the ads aren't the problem as opposed to the symptom?
Regarding something positive to add, how is, “i’m not paying, if you don’t fix this, I’m just going to greet and moan then eventually piss off” constructive?
It's called an opinion, I know people here have great difficulty with the notion that others exist and that healthy open minded debate can be had but it can. TJ and I (and others) are simply putting forward the notion that all is not well and perhaps if Mark wants more money in the bank then he could do something simple to encourage people to give him some. If you're happy to pay for a sub-standard product (opinion again) then batter in, I'm not going to shout you down for it but don't start taking the hump and telling folk they are wrong when they tell you why they won't.
As for i’m alright jack, not really, I’m just not am entitled fud like yourself. I get the bbcode issues too, it’s not exactly difficult to fix your posts. Would I like it fixed, yes. But it’s not a deal breaker.
I can't fix mine, in fact the system throws a few more paragraph breaks in every time I edit it! That is the whole problem. But of course, how silly of me, every time the forum shits the bed it's clearly the end users fault.
As for i’m alright jack, not really, I’m just not am entitled fud like yourself.
Yeah, because getting personal with folk is a time proven method of getting your point across.
Well if you subscribe things get better right then and there because you can turn the ads off, right?
Quite so. But the rest of the usability issues remain.
Apparently I'm a tightwad if I want a product finished before I buy it. Interesting business model.
Oh and the notifications don't work either. Another one for the "it's all good" list.
Apparently I’m a tightwad if I want a product finished before I buy it. Interesting business model.
Oh I definitely get that, that's why I've never backed anything on Kickstarter...
Maybe it comes down to different perceptions of value. I perceive that spending £2 a month to support a business that has given (and continues to give) me pleasure in a really important area of my life is pretty great value in the scheme of things. I perceive spending the best part of £4 on a Starbucks coffee to be pretty poor value. So I don't buy stupid coffees and I do pay Singletrack some money.
Another thing that just occurred to me actually, is a website/magazine/community ever really complete? At what point does it tip over into the 'yes I'll pay money now' category? There's definitely a bunch of features people would like, but I slightly suspect that even if they were all delivered first thing on Monday morning some people would still find a reason not to sign up.
There’s definitely a bunch of features people would like, but I slightly suspect that even if they were all delivered first thing on Monday morning some people would still find a reason not to sign up.
On the other hand, there are some people, me included, who would re-subscribe gladly.
I used to subscribe. It was mostly OK at the time.
I don't subscribe now, but I would happily do so again in the future partly to get rid of the adverts, and partly to support something worthwhile, *if* the glaring deficiencies get fixed *and* my money is going to go towards the forum, rather than cross-subsidizing things I'm not interested in.
Please don't call me a "tightwad", that doesn't help anyone.
