How long do we reckon it will take one of the bullying pieces of filth to claim they thought the tanned fellow running towards them was a suicide bomber (on account of his Asian appearance) and he was only doing his patriotic duty?
'Shameless' looks more like a documentary every day.
Rather than the slight weirdness of this thread getting all frothing mouthed and angry at the idea that other people are getting frothing mouthed and angry
The difference being, over on STW people are typing forum posts in various degrees of disappointment, embarrassment, upset, righteous indignation and / or fury, rather than punching out a teenager and kicking someone's head in for the heinous crime of (allegedly) not purchasing a ticket to a sporting event.
^
It's not the football that creates it, it is the vehicle. If football didn't exist do you think these types would cease to exist? They'd hijack another vehicle instead. There is trouble at rugby, https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/aug/10/hooliganism-threat-rugby-league
and I've heard racist language at the cricket too, has also been reported https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/49631844
just as examples.
There is a thick seam of racism in the country that is being empowered by recent events. Football needs to do what it can to stop it happening but they can only do that at games / in the grounds and by setting an example where it can. Football has not caused it, nor can it cure it in society at large.
Don’t understand why everyone always picks on the English fans. The vids are clearly bad but comments always miss out the point that it’s a global tribalist movement around football. If you think this is bad you should try looking for footage of the below in action:
Argentina / Boca Juniors
Turkey / Galatasaray
Scotland / Rangers + Celtic
Spain / Real + Barca booing their own players before kicking off.
Then go an watch the average arsenal match full of IT project managers eating prawn sandwiches while watching the game. They are so well behaved their ground is called the Library.
If there was no football the same people would just congregate around another activity…
for the heinous crime of (allegedly) not purchasing a ticket to a sporting event.
Bit more than that, let's be honest. I didn't buy a ticket either, but I didn't storm the gates, attack the stewards and force entry, I stayed at home and watched it instead.
Not saying the response was appropriate, but the actions provoked 'a' response.
It’s close to home so we are seeing it in the news, but throughout Europe this type of violence is still prevalent. There’s very much an anti English sentiment about it on here, but that’s because it’s easy to sit and point the finger.
There’s been very recent cases of Ultras from Italy attacking English fans, both here and in Italy.
Germany and Russia have a big problem with professional far right Ultras.
South America is no better, probably worse. Not just the big clubs like Fluminense and the Flanengo, but even Peru has its fair share of football violence. Worth reading about Universitario.
This is social violence dressed up as football violence. But governments should be doing more and ensuring they are not adding petrol to already volatile subjects.
This isn’t English scum or animals. This is a global problem (yes including Scotland and Wales in this).
I’ve seen drunken racist rugby crowds at Richmond station,
The one thing I've never seen in over 40 years of watching live rugby in Wales, England and Scotland is crowds of drunk racists. Crowds of drunks, yes. Crowds of drunks all drinking in the same place as the opposition, yes. I can count on one hand the occasions of racist abuse I've heard inside a ground during that time, even at tiny little working class towns in the Welsh valleys. I think you might be making this up.
Football, the 'peoples' sport. tickets were £300 minimum weren't they?
No excuses for forcing entry, no excuses for punching kids, and no excuses for blatant racism. But all of these things happen.
Football is about red vs blue, me vs you, if we lose, it's because it was unfair, if we win it's because we was [sic] better than you.
I despair of the people who carry out acts of violence in the name of sport, racism, nationalism, religion or for that matter relationships. But then I've never been a massive fan of the human race, it's both the best and worst of everything, but the stuff we tend to see more of is the worst.
I didn't watch the game and I cringe a bit everytime I see St George's cross, partly because of how it is used by so many of the groups mentioned above.
the tricolour waving folk of Glasgow
Glasgow has a Tricolor?
There is a thick seam of racism in the country
that is being empowered by recent events.
Eff tee eff why. Hate to break it to you mate, but it ain't all that recent. It all got a bit nasty a generation after we first drafted in a load of brown people to help bail us out after the war. It goes quiet occasionally but it's been 'empowered' by many things over the years.
We used to have race wars in the high school playgrounds in the 80s and it wasn't even 'recent' back then then either.
FWIW, for my part as a child I never understood it, why hate someone because they've got a bit of a tan? When it all kicked off I used to hide in the corridors with a couple of mates, a flask of Bovril and a lemon curd sandwich.
Don’t understand why everyone always picks on the English fans.
Because it's where, for the purposes of this conversation, "everyone" lives. If we were in Italy we'd likely be posting about the Ultras instead, but we don't so we aren't.
a flask of Bovril and a lemon curd sandwich.
Absolute animal
Totally unacceptable for people to be taking the law into their own hands and assaulting people breaking into the stadium without tickets. However I also have zero sympathy for those on the receiving end of the beatings - they also made a choice to break the law (and potentially endanger others in doing so).
England in a tournament brings out some of the worst people in society
You mean a Football tournament. You dont get this kind of violence from cycling fans.
The fact football seems to be the only sport that attracts this level of knuckle dragging tribalism is something I don’t understand. It’s not like rugby and cricket spectators don’t get trolleyed and make fools of themselves, but they don’t seem to have the nasty violent side.
We have regular international matches in football, cricket and rugby in Cardiff and the matchday crowds for rugby and cricket are, on the whole, good natured and fun to be part of. Plenty of drunken people but they just get on with making themselves look silly, emptying their wallets and letting their hair down. Football matches can easily make the city centre a no-go area, especially for women. It says something that when we had the Champions League final the security thrown at it was just as mad as when the NATO Summit was here with sealed manhole covers, blocked off roads for days on end and restricted access for locals and deliveries. For everything else it's just the immediate roads closed for 2 hours before and after the match.
It’s not the football that creates it, it is the vehicle. If football didn’t exist do you think these types would cease to exist? They’d hijack another vehicle instead. There is trouble at rugby, https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/aug/10/hooliganism-threat-rugby-league
and I’ve heard racist language at the cricket too, has also been reported https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/49631844
just as examples.
I put the difference down to the hooligans and racists are massively in the minority for other sports so that peer pressure from the other fans keeps a lid on anything that happens. The fans fully support bans from matches and club supporters groups stamp it out at that level so it never has a chance to fully develop. Football on the other hand seems to let things fester and build far too often with a lot of clubs having a long history of violence (like the local rivalry between Cardiff City and Swansea) that inevitably happens every time and nothing seems to be done by it. Hell, some groups look forward to the violence more than the matches!
If there was no football the same people would just congregate around another activity…
Apparently in some parts of France the local Petanque leagues have attracted violence and mob involvement in gambling etc!
Eff tee eff why. Hate to break it to you mate, but it ain’t all that recent. It all got a bit nasty a generation after we first drafted in a load of brown people to help bail us out after the war. It goes quiet occasionally but it’s been ’empowered’ by many things over the years.
Never said it was recent. It has always been racist but sometimes the racists get pushed underground and at other times things happen that re-empower them (does the re- make it better for you?)
Yes, recent things like Farage, Brexit, and a prime minister that absolutely has history in it, and who failed to condemn it only 3 weeks ago. The tide ebbs and flows, and I'd hope that with each change it goes out a little further, but there is no doubt it's on its way in right now.
I’ve seen violence at Rugby and Cricket. Anti English from the Wales fans (I’m Welsh). Especially at the old Cardiff Arms Park. Cardiff after the game was pretty rough……even though I’m Welsh I’ve lived in England the majority of my life so I don’t sound Welsh. Somewhat nervous around the bars.
Cricket violence was Brisbane for the Ashes, approx 2002, can’t quite remember the exact year. Fighting inside the ground, car parks and the bars that evening. The inside the ground fight was a couple of scuffles with some of the Aussies not liking the “banter” from the barmy army.
When I was racing (road), a lot of my winter weekends were spent in Snowdonia. Again a fair amount of xenophobic / anti English comments made to me about me watching the 6 nations in certain pubs.
It’s part of human nature to be tribal. I don’t know the solution, but I know pointing fingers towards one group isn’t the answer.
By the way, I watched the game with my Welsh family, English family and friends, nice and peacefully at home, as did approx 25 million other folks.
Glasgow has a Tricolor?
I'm assuming he means the Irish one.
The inevitable saving face backlash after the England fans frilly pink knickers were on display in France, when the big boys turned up and sparked-em out of their Crocs!
Strangely enough the shitbags didn't fancy getting their beer bellies punched right in, over in Russia.
Never said it was recent. It has always been racist but sometimes the racists get pushed underground and at other times things happen that re-empower them (does the re- make it better for you?)
That makes more sense, yes. Apologies if I misunderstood.
Absolute animal
I was young and reckless, don't judge me.
Also, my gran made up my packed lunch.
I’m assuming he means the Irish one.
Ah right. So, what, some sort of Gallic camaraderie?
Oh, were you expecting anti-English sentiment from them, is that the angle? Sorry, sports references (even cycling) are broadly lost on me.
Ah right. So, what, some sort of Gallic camaraderie?
Oh, were you expecting anti-English sentiment from them, is that the angle? Sorry, sports references (even cycling) are broadly lost on me.
You probably need to brush up on your Irish history.......
Cougar - there is a well known rivalry between two Glasgow football teams. One tends to adopt the Union Jack as an emblem, the other the Irish Tricolour. And yes it may be based on the annals of British and Irish history.
Even after 30 years living in Yorkshire, when I see folk with UJs I tend to check to see if it looks like it’s going to kick off. The UJ is still a sectarian flag in my mind. (Don’t see so many Tricolours in Yorkshire)
But that day they were more interested in what we’d been doing than anything untoward.
Quick question for all those making out that the perpetrators of breaking into the ground weren't guilty of anything too serious. Just trying to get into the game without a ticket.
My understanding is they used large numbers to simply overpower ground security. That would most likely involve physical risk to these members of staff. How would you explain this away to someone who maybe went to work for the day and didn't end up going home? Physical force, a heart attack or simple an accident. That is a distinct possibility in such circumstances. I looked at the video and the site security were shitting themselves. In no way do i condone the people assaulting them but i would quite happily have seen them close the doors off and set riot dogs on these people. I wonder whether they would of preferred a knuckle sandwich off Big Bob or being bitten to pieces by a trained GS.
Is part of the problem that these peopme don't see any consequences of their actions?
Thankfully the days of a big policeman whacking you with a big stick are (mainly) long gone. But the justice system cannot cope, small fine from magistrates is no financial penalty, no chance of prison showing them the error of their ways, little social repercussions in their own echo chamber I imagine.
I genuinely have no idea what the solution is.
Is part of the problem that these peopme don’t see any consequences of their actions?Thankfully the days of a big policeman whacking you with a big stick are (mainly) long gone. But the justice system cannot cope, small fine from magistrates is no financial penalty, no chance of prison showing them the error of their ways, little social repercussions in their own echo chamber I imagine.
The people storming through security and breaking into the stadium, or the people inside ?
All of them deserve to be punished IMO
I do wonder which group would be treated more harshly, but if I had to guess I would say the mob forcing their way into the stadium would come off worse due to how that has ended up previously ?
The guy with the brown skin did seem to be getting more of a kicking than anyone else.
And there were racial epithets being shouted at him.
Other than that, then yeah, just a bunch of patriotic heroes enforcing stadium security.
So ****s punching other ****s basically? And one of them was a teenage ****?
The shocking thing to me isn't the violence (nothing new there), but that a load of pissed, coked-up ****s broke into Wembley and some of them were able to go and watch the game.
Is this our shit version of Trump's supporters storming the Capitol?
Other than that, then yeah, just a bunch of patriotic heroes enforcing stadium security.
As I have previously said (in bold to make it as clear as possible), I am in no way defending the violence.
but both sides involved had really easy ways to avoid it,
Those dishing out the unnecessary violence could have stepped away and not got involved (really simple) .
Those on the receiving end, could have stayed outside and not stormed in and overpowered the stadium security (really simple)
Nobody involved in this is blameless (apart from the stadium security who must have been shitting themselves)
I have been to many rugby and cricket matches over many decades. drunken boorishness is not uncommon but racism and violence? never seen any
Rugby fans are not segregated in the ground - even for fierce rivalry international matches Its just not needed
nastyness at rugby and cricket is a whole level less.
Edit - sorry - mildly racist chanting at Headingly for India / England
It’s not just football & it’s not just England.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/riots-erupt-in-vancouver-after-canucks-loss-1.993707
What is it with people missing the point on here? No; you don't see the level of 'nastiness' at other sports, because the numbers who follow other sports are far, far smaller than football. Go to India, where Cricket is the most popular sport, and you'll find many incidences of (sometimes extreme) violence at matches. The number of actual 'hooligans' in football is relatively very small, but obviously the huge numbers who follow the game mean you'll get larger numbers of thugs, than in other sports. It's just simple maths. Those who want to have an excuse to gather together in gangs for violence, have a ready made vehicle in football. I'd be willing to bet there is more violence at American Football matches than in 'Soccer', in the USA. The sport itself isn't the reason why there is violence. People are.
Bridges - and you miss the point 100 000 ( yes I was there) drunken scots and welsh fans crammed into the old murreyfield - no violence at all before during or after
Fans are not segreagated
i was actually given a ticket by some welsh fans and sat amongst them one match
Scotland / England games to a full house. No violence at all
the thugs follow football - its a simple as that.
A day at the Races is quite an experience now too. It's the ideal place to get pissed, throw-up and have a fight with other groups of stag and hen do's!
A percentage of our population are scum. Always has been and probably always will be.
I wish we could track and trace persistent bellends and send them to an island to be bellends together.
the thugs follow football – its a simple as that.
What's your point caller? Ban football because then we wouldn't have thugs?
Seriously TJ?
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/wales-v-england-idiotic-fans-8599135
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-42180283
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/local-news/watch-massive-brawl-erupt-between-17906103
Even senior members of the Welsh Police saying how bad things are, including comparing it to football.
Wonder why my local team had to put this message out to fans….
https://twitter.com/SaintsRugby/status/1373704641473617920
It’s not just football, football is the excuse.
I personally think the problem is belittled when we just say it’s the Ingerland yobs again. It’s not.
I wish we could track and trace persistent bellends and send them to an island to be bellends together.
Australia have got much stricter about immigration since those days.....
I wish we could track and trace persistent bellends and send them to an island to be bellends together.
I do hope that was a bit of Brexit tongue in cheek.
Bridges – and you miss the point
No; you either just don't understand it, or simply want to argue a stupid point. Fortunately, others do understand it. You just want it to be 'football', so that you can feel superior about the sport YOU choose to follow. 'Oh look at me, I'm better than you'. Knock yourself out. I can't be bothered.
Some people are utter dicks, some of those people were at Wembley last night.
Drac nails it!
Seems to be an odd trend recently on here (since Brexit, sorry) about claiming that this country is somehow special in the racist stakes. It really isn’t, it’s a problem throughout most countries which is extremely sad and quite pathetic.
I have been to many rugby and cricket matches over many decades. drunken boorishness is not uncommon but racism and violence? never seen any
attendance at rugby and cricket is orders of magnitude less. FWIW I haven't actually seen trouble at football since the early 90's - lot's of shout and bluster though.
I just did a quick tally up and I reckon on any given Saturday afternoon (or nowadays, Friday evening / Sunday evening/////) 3/4 million people go to matches in the four English top levels.
Add in Scottish, Welsh, NI and also the pro non-league pyramid, possibly over 1M. That's approaching 2% of the UK population
(you want proof - EPL, ave attendance 38K x 10 games = 380K; Champ 20K x 12, Div 1 8.7K x 12, Div 2 5 x 12)
Multiply by a 38 or 46 game season, that's a huge number of attendances / 'opportunities to create an issue'
Gallagher Premiership - 14K x 6 games per week = 84K by a 22 game season.
Football is a microcosm of society, and far more than rugby and cricket has a demographic right across society.
Like I said earlier, it’s not just England.
Anyone who thinks this is not a problem with football needs their bumps felt
the whole issue is simply not attached to another sport.
It doesn't matter if only 10% attendence at rugby com pared to football - there is 100% less violence
its a football problem and a football problem only
I think what TJ may be saying is the right wing have attached themselves to the England national team, which I’d agree with. Apologies if I’ve misunderstood you’re last post.
Within England I think it is a small number of right wing bigots, followed by a larger number of drunken yobs. I also think the same drunken yobs can be found at other sports but in much smaller numbers causing much less damage and receiving much less press.
