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I would be suprised to see Italy beat Wales. It should be remmebered that the Italian lineout is pants too, their scrumaging shouldnt be a problem for Wales. I wouldnt be shocked if it happend though.
some good posts on here, another frustrated Welshman here.
i'll be surprised if gatlan stays for the world cup (tongue in cheek)
if i hear the phrase "were just not clinical enough" one more time i am going to cry.
yes the ref didn't make the best decisions and its easy to look back and sit on the fence but we should have scored from those scrums.
yes key players were missing and ireland had a full strength squad but again its excuses.
don't get me started on the lineouts, something needs to be drastically sorted out as the under 20's were just as bad... some coaching staff need to go.
Paul O'Connell was just taking the p*ss out of us, he can read the line out so well and it was a walk in the park for him.
ah well onwards and upwards...
Interestingly (after an earlier post), The Times today mentioned the comparative numbers of players in England and Scotland after John Beattie said that there are as many refs registered in England as players in Scotland.
In fact Scotland has 32,817 registered players compared to 38,019 registered refs in England.
England has 66 times more senior players than Scotland according to the article.
Looking at the IRB website :
England Number Of Clubs:
1900
Number Of Registered Players:
2146140
Number of Referees:
38019
Pre-teen Male Players:
192882
Teen Male Player:
1218138
Senior Male Player:
705272
Total Male Player:
2116292
Scotland:
Number Of Clubs:
241
Number Of Registered Players:
32817
Number of Referees:
343
Pre-teen Male Players:
7556
Teen Male Player:
13402
Senior Male Player:
10556
Total Male Player:
31514
Ireland:
Number Of Clubs:
207
Number Of Registered Players:
152830
Number of Referees:
420
Pre-teen Male Players:
60600
Teen Male Player:
57700
Senior Male Player:
21939
Total Male Player:
140239
Wales:
Number Of Clubs:
325
Number Of Registered Players:
46324
Number of Referees:
1779
Pre-teen Male Players:
10000
Teen Male Player:
13689
Senior Male Player:
21196
Total Male Player:
44885
This proves nothing at all, of course, but it is interesting when thnking of player base numbers.
Japan for comparison:
Number Of Clubs:
3620
Number Of Registered Players:
122598
Number of Referees:
4484
I'm Irish and quite like Gatland, he was actually a good coach for Ireland apart from losing to Scotland every year. I also couldn't believe we didn't get a yellow on Saturday however if Sexton didn't have a real off day with his goal kicking it could have been really embarrassing for Wales.
What I find really interesting is that Ireland seem to have prioritised the line-out over the scrum. John Hayes stays in the team despite never being a good TH but continues to be an excellent line-out lifter. Tony Buckley who is an even worse scrummager is being groomed as the Bull's successor however at 6'5" is like a forklift in the line-out. As we are on stats Tony Buckley is the 3rd heaviest player in 6N history.
Now don't get me started on England but if you had to ask me I would blame Brian Smith! A real plonker
I agree, El Vino, Gatland doesn't seem to be the problem. (Although he desperately needs a good forwards coach to sort out the setpieces!)
My own opinion is that the most basic problem is that we have no players.
4 professional teams, one of which is rarely competitive, and they are all filled with SH imports. As soon as a player in almost any position is injured or retires then we have nobody to fall back on.
Even the galacticos of the Ospreys have to resort to players of the very low calibre of Johnny Vaughton, etc, and have had to cancel a game this week because they can't field a front row. That is disgraceful for a so-called professional team.
IdelJon
I think what it proves is that England are seriously underperfoming and the whole system needs a shake up (has done for years).
To have 66 times the playing resources of Scotland and yet only be 'competing' with them is embarassing.
I know player numbers are not the only consideration but still it is a big one
What I find really interesting is that Ireland seem to have prioritised the line-out over the scrum.
Kinda fascinated by this too. In games where their scrum in creaking, they still win nearly all their own line out and are continually either stealing ball (which is great) or at least disrupting and causing the opposition to get messy ball on theirs.
Surely though, they're not just chucking in the towel wrt the scrum are they? Would a side do that? There's nothing to quieten a home crowd like the away team dominating the scrum (as well as the psychological damage to the opposition's forwards). Not disagreeing with you EV, just thinking aloud..
The Bull was never a great scrummager anyway, but he's really well past it (was very very pleased that he got the hundred caps and led the team out though. A special moment for a fellow Limerickman). Healy doesn't look like he's going to be world class and as El Vino says, buckley doesn't look like any other front line will be shitting themselves when he walks on to the pitch.
So maybe we're just short of a really good front line at the moment? Hopefully something improves because, I'm worried about 2011 already.
What I find really interesting is that Ireland seem to have prioritised the line-out over the scrum. John Hayes stays in the team despite never being a good TH but continues to be an excellent line-out lifter. Tony Buckley who is an even worse scrummager is being groomed as the Bull's successor however at 6'5" is like a forklift in the line-out. As we are on stats Tony Buckley is the 3rd heaviest player in 6N history.
Hardley a suprise given the state of referring of the scrums, look at how wales pretty much got away with having Paul James at tighthead in the autumn. Its a farce.
This proves nothing at all, of course,
absolutely correct;
New Zealand
Number Of Clubs:
595
Number Of Registered Players:
145293
Considering that the game was invented in England, there will always be more players. It doesn't mean they're any good! (I'm probably included in that stat!)
Always get the impression Ireland are a 2 man team, O'Connel and B.O.D not that the rest arent very capable players but those two are talismanic. They were for the Lions and they are for Mr Kidney.
Same as England when Johnson went there was no leader on the pitch. Capable players but no leaders.
God knows why Wales cant find a hooker who can throw it in, Nugget seems to have run out of legs, we really need a good forwards coach.
Considering that the game was invented in England, there will always be more players.
Don't be daft. It's cos there are more people in England.
I bet Wales has more players per hed of population.
Bankhander your comments re-inforce mine.
England are doing something very wrong.
Part of the issue is that football will almost always get the cream of the athletes, whereas in NZ rugby will attract more. That said England should be top country by some margin with only France able to compete in terms of sheer mass of players
300 odd refs in Scotland? Time my travel ex's/free kit allowance was going up! Those were good stats about player numbers.I would be interested in any comments about how many players are coming through.In Scotland rugby in state schools is dead on it's arse.When I was at school 25 years ago in Dundee there were 8 state schools playing rugby,now there are 2,and even they field at most 2xv's.I notice a lot more 40-somethings playing first team at the lower levels. District league teams also strugglwe to field 2xv's.
Duckman
Even in the Borders (former hotbed) the number of state schools playing rugby is diminishing. I think the SRU are missiing a serious opportunity to be out promoting the game across the country. Some effort now would pay dividends in the future.
Even the premier league teams are struggling. When I was playing at Currie we frequently fielded 6 XV's on a Saturday. They stuggle to get 3 out now 🙁
Ireland have plenty of better scrummagers than Buckley, Tom Court, Mike Ross to name two, neither are destructive however so unless you have someone of the quality of say Euan Murray the refereeing of the scrum is so bad you might as well concentrate on the Line out. This strategy only comes unstuck against the very best teams of which there is only one in this years 6Ns - France.
Gatland has chosen 18yr old Prydie (theres tidy) to face Italy, good choice I think if they are good enough they are old enough.
That's a very conservative team. Obviously Gatland MUST win this game.
Why Shanklin AND Bishop on the bench though? Just hope that Steve Jones and Hook aren't both injured...
ee Byrne (Ospreys); Tom Prydie (Ospreys); James Hook (Ospreys), Jamie Roberts (Cardiff Blues); Shane Williams (Ospreys); Stephen Jones (Llanelli Scarlets), Michael Phillips (Ospreys); Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues), Matthew Rees (Llanelli Scarlets), Adam Jones (Ospreys), Bradley Davies (Cardiff Blues), Luke Charteris (Dragons), Jonathan Thomas (Ospreys), Sam Warburton (Cardiff Blues), Ryan Jones (capt, Ospreys)
Replacements: Huw Bennett, Paul James, Ian Gough, Gareth Delve, Dwayne Peel, Andrew Bishop, Tom Shanklin
How is that a conservative team? Looking forward to seeing how Prydie and Warburton go. Warburton in particular looks very promising. Hope Phillips is at the races because he was rubbish for Ospreys last week and Rees whilst not a world beater has done well. Nice to see Peel given another chance as he's too good to ignore, just hope if Phillips is rubbish that Peel isnt too, seems like a risk, as is Gethin at loose head. Two centres are on the bench as Hook, Roberts and Prydie can all play full back and Hook covers 10 and the other options are limited to the likes of Sweeney as Robinson has burnt his bridges by going to Glos. I'd like to see Bishop partner Roberts or Shanklin at some point too. I'd have put Ryqan Jones at 6 kept Delve at 8 and shoved JT to lock instead of Charteris.
Can we go back to the start of the thread and talk by the englishmen about Wales picking all old players.
Warburton looks very promising 🙂
The last game in 5 which doesn't matter as the team have played so poorly, 2 young players are picked in the whole squad of 22. Hardly daring is it?
anagallis_arvensis - MemberHow is that a conservative team?
Just thinking about the conversation on ScrumV about whether Gats would pick many young players. He can't, for obvious reasons, so h'e picked the team we'd expect.
I disagree about Peel - he's been rubbish for a long time, living on his reputation. Not fast enough these days, his pass isn't as accurate as Rees's, and he has a terrible tendency to kick the ball straight to the opposition backs. There are much better 9s coming through the system thankfully.
Did you enjoy your mighty England team thrashing Scotland as you predicted backhander? 😉 Enjoy your lesson in back row play?
Whats the way forward for England? Do they really not have the players or is it the coaching? For England to pick a team ( Worzle) to negate Scotland rather than going for a win on merit shows a real lack of ambition to me.
Scotland - just need to stop loosing the best backs to injury and find a standoff and we will have a team to be reckoned with. Ifs buts and maybes of course but they have really not been outclassed by anyone except France this year
Whatever TJ, hope you enjoy biting on the wooden spoon. 😆
I didn't see a lesson in back row play, the english players were quiet and beattie was OK. Brown doesn't impress me at all. What's the way forward for scotland? They're losing (or drawing) all of their games and Duckman has said that the game is barely played in schools. Time for investment and more game than hoping for driving rain?
I am coming to the realisation that England won't play attractive threatening rugby under MJ, who neither selects the type of players needed nor the tactics. I'm a massive fan of his but maybe his future is as a forwards coach?
You didn't see the lesson in back row play - did you watch the game? The days of praying for rain are long gone - the scots game is a fast offloading game nowadays which is best played on a dry day.
Investment needed in the game for sure
I watched it alright. I saw little fast unloading and 0 line breaks from either side. As I said, there was no lesson in back row play. I should know I've played there for 21 years. I concede that the scots back row played the better rugby but it was far from a lesson.
The scots seem to be chalking this as a victory when the facts are that they didn't win the calcutta cup and they still face the wooden spoon.
Ah so constant head trauma leads Backhander to some of his rambling and a fixation on 2003 😉
I'm going to be conflicted this weekend!
I don't want France to win another GS and of course would prefer to see Ireland win the championship (which is almost impossible?), but is it possible for me to actually support England? Physically possible? Damage may be done to my central nervous system if I start shouting things like " C',mon Easter, pass to Hartley. Yes a sidestep, show the world your skills, Borthwick!"
But anyway, come on Wales, Ireland and [s]England[/s]. Damn, it's difficult.
No scots fan sees it as a victory - its yet another if but and maybe and a game that Scotland could have and should have won but did not.
Also a game which could easily have gone englands way.
Someone has had to defend england from the chipiness of some of the members but I have suffered some head trauma along the way, yes. The ramblings have generally come from certain members babbling on about how good their team is despite being beaten by pretty much everybody while simultaneously slating england!
I disagree about Peel - he's been rubbish for a long time, living on his reputation. Not fast enough these days, his pass isn't as accurate as Rees's, and he has a terrible tendency to kick the ball straight to the opposition backs. There are much better 9s coming through the system thankfully.
I agree but if Peel can reach near his best he's better than Rees, I think playing Rees again or benching him would not help reduce the squad for the world cup. Cooper was given his chances and blew them. Phillips and rees are now 1 and 2 but we need a third for the world cup and I dont see anyone coming through for wales in time so Peel needs to be helped rather than discarded. That young lad at Scarlets looked good when I saw him the other week but its a bit too soon for the world cup. Wales have a core of players like Byrne, Shane, Roberts, S. Jones, Phillips, Ryan Jones, Alun Wyn Jones, Ian Evans, Gethin, Rees, Adam Jones who if all fit would give any team in the world something to think about when the likes of Hook, Shanklin, 1/2p, Bradley Davies, Warburton, Martyn Williams are added. Bring my fav perma tanned prima donna back and things would improve hugely.
Indeed. I am not sure either team deserved to win tho
backhander - Member
Also a game which could easily have gone englands way.
But didn't.
😉
God I wish the perma tanned prima donna would return, Roberts needs someone to create space for him.
Allez les Bleus I say and lets see 50 points on the saes 😆
I have a tenner on the italians and am eying up the price of azzuri shirts.
FORZA ITALIA!
According to Charlotte Church on Woozer at the weekend she thinks he could return to training soon, I have a semi on and not just cause she looks quite good.
Really or is that a rumour???? Not being at home I am missing out on the grapevine. Oh please let that happen 🙂 it would be the second coming 😉 well he should be fresh he has had a long hols.
I just watched it on aye player!!
I haven't heard Jeremy Gusset(I did get that right,didn't I?)mention England should only go up to Scotland to play golf as the rugby team was not worthy of a fixture for a wee while....France for the Championship,Scotland to beat Ireland and avoid wooden spoon (Coming to you from the same head trauma ward as backhander)
Wilkinson dropped? I am astounded. Looks a more balanced adn dangerous side to me. Fluty must be lucky tho - he has done nowt that I have seen
Ben Foden (Northampton)
; Mark Cueto (Sale),
Mike Tindall (Gloucester),
Riki Flutey (Brive),
Chris Ashton (Northampton);
Toby Flood (Leicester),
Danny Care (Harlequins);
Tim Payne (Wasps),
Dylan Hartley (Northampton),
Dan Cole (Leicester),
Simon Shaw (Wasps),
Steve Borthwick (Saracens, capt),
Joe Worsley (Wasps),
Lewis Moody (Leicester),
Nick Easter (Harlequins).
Replacements: Steve Thompson (Brive),
David Wilson (Bath),
Louis Deacon (Leicester),
James Haskell (Stade Francais),
Ben Youngs (Leicester),
Jonny Wilkinson (Toulon),
Mathew Tait (Sale).
Anyone seen Sir Mikendale play recently for Gloucester? Didn't realise he was even in the squad?
Mongo's driving instructor has been doing what he has always done....thump...bosh...except he has imo developed a little more spacial awareness.Has got better at bringing other players in and timing his pass.
Shame Tom Croft isn't fit. That's a defensive looking back row to me.
Otherwise, a bit more like it (no hipkiss?).
Still gonna get a thrashing IMO.
England's selection is for the wrong weekend surely?
A defensive team against the Scots, attacking team against the French?
God alone knows 😐
I fear that even if the team plays really well against France, we'll get to the next international games and be back to the original team selection and more boring grinding. Personally I'd sooner lose a few games, take some risks and see some improvement.
that england front row is going to be pulverised if the ref allows scrumaging. Back row selections seem to be done using a pin, no consistency, why bring ashton and foden in for this game? Bizare.