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Even die hard unionists would prefer an independent scotland in the EU to remaining in the UK outside the EU
No they wouldn’t there are a fair few leave voters at my work and even more convinced unionists and plenty of remain voters who are against Indy ref 2 . This idea that Scotland as a whole is united against brexit and has shifted to independence just doesn’t reflect the people I know and talk to . There are a few , myself included , who are very much remain who are looking at Indy in a different way now but I’m not convinced it’s as inevitable as TJ makes out .
I’m hoping for a heavy snowfall and freezing temperatures
That's more likely than Labour pulling themselves together and taking the fight to the Tory's
And obviously nothing to do with labour leadership sacking the local candidate chosen by the local membership weeks before polling day….
Not sure you're correct about why things happened there. She had done something inappropriate it was alleged and Sally Gimson dropped her legal case.
That whole episode however wasn't communicated very well.
Boomerlives - its clear from polling that even some NI unionists would prefer a united ireland in the EU to remaining in the UK outside of the EU. Like me with an independent scotland - its a pragmatic decision deciding on balance which situation would make their lives better
Moonsaballoon - of course its nuanced and some folk will not change their views. However its again clear that people are moving towards independence as a reaction to what is happening down south. anecdotally I know several folk who voted no in the indy ref who would now cote yes because they see the EU as more important that the UK and they are also reacting to the hard right hard brexit of Johnson
I wonder what percentage of Labour MPs have, at best, presently got their heads in their hands, and more than likely just hoofed their dog across the room?
Grandad and the gang of clowns around him in the bunker seem absolutely determined to deliver Boris his large majority, all gift-wrapped for Christmas
That'll be a nice boost for the lib dems too as remainers flee of Brexiteer Grandad
That’ll be a nice boost for the lib dems too as remainers flee of Brexiteer Grandad
The polling evidence suggests that labour have taken the remain threat from the libdems much too seriously to the clear detriment of shoring up their support in leave voting seats in the north and the midlands. The conclusion is clear, the strategy put forward by remainers was wrong, and Lavery, Tricket et al were right.
The polling evidence suggests that labour have taken the remain threat from the libdems much too seriously to the clear detriment of shoring up their support in leave voting seats in the north and the midlands. The conclusion is clear, the strategy put forward by remainers was wrong, and Lavery, Tricket et al were right.
But, that would mean that our stalwart political expert Binners is wrong...?
Labour don’t even stand candidates in NI
Nor does the tories
I know several folk who voted no in the indy ref who would now cote yes because they see the EU as more important that the UK and they are also reacting to the hard right hard brexit of Johnson
That could describe me although not necessarily an importance thing , but I’m voting SNP for the first time because we have a Tory mp and I think stopping a Tory government is the most important thing at the moment . I struggled with the decision because I’m not comfortable with my vote being taken as pro Indy , it’s not ,it’s anti johnson anti brexit and anti everything that shower have done over the last 10 years .
Thank you moonsaballoon.
We need more people thinking this way… vote to stop Johnson… just discount the worry that your vote is for Independence/Corbyn/Swinson… vote for whoever has a chance in your seat of stopping a Johnson backing Tory or DUP MP taking the seat… be it SNP, PC, Labour, LibDem, Green, SF, Alliance, SDLP, Independent… whoever… hold your nose… stop Johnson.
The polling evidence suggests that labour have taken the remain threat from the libdems much too seriously to the clear detriment of shoring up their support in leave voting seats in the north and the midlands. The conclusion is clear, the strategy put forward by remainers was wrong, and Lavery, Tricket et al were right.
But, that would mean that our stalwart political expert Binners is wrong…?
Can someone point out exactly when the labour party adopted a more pro-remain, more lib dem-esque stance? I must have missed that.
The whole point is that the Labour leadership hasn't taken a position at all. Corbyn has done what he always does. Endlessly procrastinate. He's sat on his fence with his thumb up his arse for 3 years now. Now, with 2 weeks to go, he's gone all Farage, which I suspect he'd personally rather have done from day one, as a lifelong Brexiteer.
What a time to pull your thumb out of your arse and come down off that fence thats been splintering your arse for the last 3 years? Really credible. The time should have been called on 'constructive ambiguity' over 12 months ago. But Grandad waits until 2 weeks before an election?
How much do we need voting reform?!?
Anyway, from that BBC link about Labour changing their campaign strategy…
Canvassers - again, particularly in Leave areas - have been reporting that Mr Corbyn's leadership has come up time and again on the doorstep.
There is a case to be made in “Leave areas” that the best thing to do now is dump Brexit and address housing, NHS etc with the money saved. Corbyn isn’t the person to make that case. And he isn’t the person to try and make the case for a “Labour Brexit” either, if that’s the deadend strategy they want to try instead, as voters in those areas don’t want to listen to him, and don’t want to vote for him.
Can someone point out exactly when the labour party adopted a more pro-remain, more lib dem-esque stance? I must have missed that.
You're just re-writing history now. You know full well that labour brexit policy shifted towards the remain side due to the threat of the lib dems. Starmer and Thornberry were pushing hard in that direction, Lavery and Tricket in the other direction. Starmer and Thornberry won the battle and labour adopted a 2nd ref position with remain on the ballot against all the advice of MPs in working class leave voting consitituencies. In reality what has happened is that the lib dem threat has evaporated (still want to bang on about the May euro elections? I thought they were going to win a hundred seats?) and leave labour voters in those very seats MPs were warning about have pissed off to the tories/BXP.
Of course this is all on the evidence of one poll, but it's not looking good. Your're right, Corbyn has made mistakes by sitting on the fence, he should have stuck to his instincts and sided with Lavery, Tricket, Flint and Nandy by supporting a soft brexit deal and campaigning for one without the distraction of a 2nd ref.
Lavery, Tricket, Flint and Nandy by supporting a soft brexit deal
Not sure about the others, but Flint hasn’t been advocating a soft Brexit, she has been pushing hard Brexit, and been more strident in her support of ending Freedom of Movement than most Tories.
There is a case to be made in “Leave areas” that the best thing to do now is dump Brexit and address housing, NHS etc with the money saved.
“Tough on Brexit.
Tough on the causes of Brexit.”
🙂
And the labour leadership adopted a second referendum after coming under intense pressure to do so by the unions, who know what a disaster Brexit will be for workers.
Corbyns 'commitment' to it has always looked half-arsed, at best.
Forget antisemitism, Labour just handed Boris his majority this morning, with this farcical change of position. Absolute clowns!
Daz- so if I understand the slant of your post the choice is Tory Hard Bexit or a maybe softer Brexit with Labour.
What a choice! And if you don't want Brexit, what do you do?
And I ask in all seriousness; what do you do?
Considering taking the 13th off work to sit up and watch it. Flick between the channels and a movie..or 2
Labour just handed Boris his majority this morning
And what exactly have they done? All they've said is they're going to do more campaigning in leave seats. To my knowledge they're not changing any policies, which would be stupid. How will they be handing Johnson the election by campaigning harder in seats which currently are predicted to go to the tories? You have this completely upside down. I suppose you want Corbyn to be camped out in deepest remainia, banging the drum for his 2nd ref remain option?
Daz- so if I understand the slant of your post the choice is Tory Hard Bexit or a maybe softer Brexit with Labour.
It's the same as it was before, tory hard/no deal, labour soft, or no brexit at all via a referendum. See above, the policy is not changing. The only thing that is changing is they're going to do more campaigning in leave seats, which binners seems to think is a bad thing.
I'm out on the lash on the 12th; Xmas party. Good timing
Latest news from the IFS raining poo on both the main parties claims
He said that the Conservatives were continuing to "pretend that tax rises will never be needed to secure decent public services".
Labour, he added, "pretends that huge increases in spending can be financed by just big companies and the rich".
Daz- deepest remainia? Definitely. It would be a stand I could get behind, rather than the usual weak and vacillating shifts in position that we are sued to.
Leaking some big tactical swerve two weeks before polling day just reeks of desperation. Their internal polling and doorstep feedback must be 'interesting' to make this seem like a viable option.
What a choice! And if you don’t want Brexit, what do you do?
And I ask in all seriousness; what do you do?
Emigrate?
Sad, but true.
And as predicted, British companies panic and take measures to protect themselves.
The Labour party’s plans to take large parts of the energy industry back under public control is on a collision course with EU laws that guard Europe-owned companies against government takeovers.
The EU rules mean a Labour administration could face rising costs or a legal battle in European courts over plans to pay a discount to nationalise energy networks and the big six energy suppliers.
British companies that are not covered by the ECT have already set up offshore holdings to take advantage of similar bilateral agreements with tax havens such as Hong Kong, Luxembourg, Switzerland and Singapore.
SSE, which owns two energy networks and is the UK’s second largest energy supplier, told the Sunday Times that it had moved the assets into a new Swiss holding company. In the same report National Grid said it had shifted its gas and electricity transmission arm into subsidiaries based in Luxembourg and Hong Kong.
UK Power Networks is also understood to be protected by a bilateral treaty because it has been owned since 2010 by CKI, an investor based in Hong Kong
LOL
So are we still sure Labour is a remain party?
deepest remainia? Definitely.
I suppose you didn't see that poll then? Labour are already doing well in remain seats, but are losing long held labour leave voting seats to the tories/bxp. How does it benefit them, or the remain side of the brexit divide, to double down in remain seats?
The conclusion is clear, the strategy put forward by remainers was wrong, and Lavery, Tricket et al were right.
No, Labour have to attract new voters to swing seats, and that means largely remain, they also need to make sure of their majority in existing seats. the 3-4 million Labour leave voters aren't going to swing this election, Labour need to attract new voters, and they are predominately young and remain. The strategy (up until now at least) is correct.
Nor does the tories
No, It is after all, The Conservative and Union party. They do have candidates,
How does it benefit them, or the remain side of the brexit divide, to double down in remain seats?
Honestly? Do you not see?
Because when they appear weak on the subject of Brexit, appearing to be even weaker is not a good thing.
It smacks hard that they are insincere in their stance to leave/remain. You can't push both as your policy without undermining your credibility; it's contradictory
The strategy (up until now at least) is correct.
But you can imagine how much pressure is coming from longstanding Labour MPs in previously solid constituencies who have previously not had to work too hard for their vote, but are now finding a lot of folk on the doorstep telling them they're voting Brexit or even Tory. These MPs probably have more clout when they're screaming for extra resources than fresh candidates aiming at remain marginals who may not even have served as MPs before.
Anyone know where to find local polling results - in strong Conservative area just want to bolster whatever the most likely runner up / competition is. Not sure that 2015 or 2017 results are going to be representative...
Maggie Neave, 60, has ME. After she and her husband pay their rent, gas and electricity, their universal credit (plus private pension) leaves them £340 a month. She has long voted Ukip. “I wanted out of Europe. It was nothing to do with immigration – I wanted my vacuum cleaner to work properly. It was all these stupid rules they brought in, limiting the power of vacuums and kettles. I just want to govern ourselves again.
This time she is voting “tactically”: Labour, to get the Conservatives out. “All the people that are sleeping rough. It’s horrendous. We sit here at night and think if we missed another rent payment, it could be us. It could happen to anybody on UC. It’s wrong.””
😀
Wonder if she thought about the people that could lose their homes dues to Brexit?
I might vote Tory if it means she’ll end up homeless.
I take my earlier post back. People over 60 should have the vote taken from them
rayban - based on your post above re a Norwich voter, I can't decide if you're a troll or an ignorant p***k.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt - you are both.
I take my earlier post back. People over 60 should have the vote taken from them.
+ a bazillion. I'll happily give mine up when I'm 60 if I can retire on a decent state pension.
Stop blaming the voters…
So are we still sure Labour is a remain party?
With a Brexiteer like JC in charge they never have been..
I take my earlier post back. People over 60 should have the vote taken from them
Done, I will change it from 16 - 60. I will get on and implement it. Do you still want me to call it the final solution? Will help it get backing from Labour party.
@martinhutch, Yes your right, huge pressure, I'm sure. Personally I think much more effort should've been spent challenging Labour leave voters to show them that their vote in 2016 has been subsumed into a louder right wing movement, and that they should back remain, but the Labour executive has been long conflicted by Brexit, and I don't think is sure of it's position even now
I think Corbyn et al realised a while ago that their votes to leave have been co-opted by an always stronger, better financed right wing leave campaign. There was after all no caveat in 2016, there was no addendum that showed that one wanted to leave but not in a right wing way, but in a more agreeable socialist way...and that they've been played.
Aah, we are where we are, those leave Labour votes need to come on-side, but without scaring the remain (and larger) part of the party. It's a balancing act that is doomed in our un-nuanced system I think
I didn’t mean to be funny kayla1… I was calling for people not to get angry at someone because they were upset due to the lies and twisted “facts” spread by Johnson, Gove, Cummings & Co… concentrate on stopping Johnson, or he’ll keep using the same tactics, and we’ll head into a hole of a very Orwellian nature that we might not climb back out of in our lifetimes.
And as predicted, British companies panic and take measures to protect themselves.
The Labour party’s plans to take large parts of the energy industry back under public control is on a collision course with EU laws that guard Europe-owned companies against government takeovers.
The EU rules mean a Labour administration could face rising costs or a legal battle in European courts over plans to pay a discount to nationalise energy networks and the big six energy suppliers.
British companies that are not covered by the ECT have already set up offshore holdings to take advantage of similar bilateral agreements with tax havens such as Hong Kong, Luxembourg, Switzerland and Singapore.
SSE, which owns two energy networks and is the UK’s second largest energy supplier, told the Sunday Times that it had moved the assets into a new Swiss holding company. In the same report National Grid said it had shifted its gas and electricity transmission arm into subsidiaries based in Luxembourg and Hong Kong.
UK Power Networks is also understood to be protected by a bilateral treaty because it has been owned since 2010 by CKI, an investor based in Hong Kong
I'm quite hurt that the Guardian didn't pick up that I moved my pension stock out of Uk listed companies. 🙁
I didn’t mean to be funny… I was calling for people not to get angry about someone being upset due to the lies and twisted “facts” spread by Johnson, Gove, Cummings & Co… vote to stop Johnson, or he’ll keep using the same tactics, and we’re heading into a hole…
I just google image searched them and I didn't realise they were actual FB ads (they were, weren't they?) I thought they were Daily Mash style piss takes of how brexiters think 😬
Just having a did and trying to understand the recent poll a bit better. Found this, that some of you might find interesting:
https://www.ft.com/video/d358c454-776e-4a1e-993c-914f5b329b04
I have a question though: does the YouGov poll capture the recent spike in younger voter registration?
I thought they were Daily Mash style piss takes of how brexiters think
No. Real. Part of the targeted marketing that caused the uptick in support for Leave in the final weeks of the referendum campaign. That and polar bears and bullfighting. The same people are about to win a minimum of 5 years to embed themselves further into the seat of power in the UK. Do anything you can to prevent your seat returning a Johnson backing MP, please.
No worries here on that score, we live in a very safe Labour seat but I'll still be voting for them to hammer the point home.
Can somone tell me the new minimum contract hours Labour will be enforcing? They say zero hours contracts will be banned, what they don't say is what the new minimum contract hours will be? I assume they're not banning part time work all together.
So what? 37 hours? 8 hours? 4 hours?
When I was a student I dropped my Supermarket job down to one evening shift of 3.25 hours at exam time, I assume that will definately be illegal under Labour?
We will tackle insecurity by ... Banning zero-hour contract
We will end insecurity and exploitation by ending zero-hours contracts