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It most likely will be done, but with Johnson suggesting it’ll be ‘done’ in January, and Corbyn suggested he’ll get it ‘sorted’ inside 6 months… they are both hoping to get the votes of people who are unprepared for it to take years and years… and that is further going to erode trust in voters when the lies and deceits are laid bare.
And politicians are now claiming it’ll “be over by Xmas”
Ah yes, when all else fails reference the war.
Would that be the one that specifically lasted far, far longer and was far far more unpleasant than anyone expected?
Labour really should stand aside in Esher & Walton
Full.thread is pretty bonkers
https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1199049957665386501
Labour really should stand aside…
Not going to happen anywhere, to help defeat any Conservative candidate. That isn’t the priority. And it’s too late now anyway.
I'd back Corbyn to approach Brussels with a much better spirit of cooperation than Johnson.
Chief Rabbi now weighing in regarding Labour anti-semitism; can't see that helping Corbyn.
Too many brexiters appear to believe that we'll be completely out before end 2020; we may have a withdrawal agreement in place but then face possibly 10 years to negotiate and agree trade agreements.
At best the WA, if it happens, will be the end of the beginning.
I'm a committed retainer and hope (against hope) the GE result will provide the opportunity for a 2nd ref and cancellation of A50; in truth, I cannot see a path to that without dealing with the devil in the form of a 2nd indyref for Scotland.
Cameron should be deeply apologetic for the chaos he unleashed - but he isn't; should be shot (with shit). Arrogance of privilege - Johnson also.
The Chief Rabbi really has hung Corbyn out to dry. I know a few Jewish lifelong Labour supporters who say they can't vote for him.
Given his long standing position on anti-racism etc, I'm astonished this has come out under his watch - or has it always been there and only now being exposed?
Its neither
Its a concerted effort which has worked to some extent to equate anti isreal sentiment with anti semetic.
Yes there is some anti semitism in labour. Like there is amongst the population at large. However Corbyn is against the vile isreali apartheid government that routinely kills palestinians.
The Chief Rabbi really has hung Corbyn out to dry. I know a few Jewish lifelong Labour supporters who say they can’t vote for him.
I'm not convinced - the Jewish Labour vote is not that big to start with, and they don't vote en masse following the orders of whatever apologist for Israel is on the bullhorn this week.
“ Its a concerted effort which has worked to some extent to equate anti isreal sentiment with anti Semitic.”
A more plausible explanation is that Labour has taken on many new members and activists who are anti-semites. They also have a healthy dose of candidates standing whose “heritage” communities are extremely prejudiced against Jews so they are deliberately playing to the gallery.
History suggest that the roots of the anti-Semitism problem in Labour go way further back than 1948 - distaste for the more recent behaviour of the Israeli government on some issues is the convenient beard for something that goes back to the Bolsheviks, and mixes in with attitudes in what are delicately referred to above as "heritage communities", a dog-whistle in itself.
Rob dixon - that is not plausible at all.
Its as I siad. The isrealis and their apologists are aghast that there is a prospect of a government in the UK that will hold isreal to account for its vile actions. So hence the outcry of anti semitism. It has long been a part of the isreali political scene to decry any criticism of Isreal as anti semitic - although its based on the horror visited upon the palestinians not on a hatred of jews
You can critise the isreali government and support the palestinians without being an anti semite.
https://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/mapstellstory.html
Edit - I did not read the text on that site - looks a bit dodgy to say the least. the maps show the picture clearly tho.
History suggest that the roots of the anti-Semitism problem in Labour go way further back than 1948
Really?
I must say I find it rather implausible that the views of people who must be long dead would have influenced party policy today. I mean, it's not like a family where parents inculcate their kids - most people are adults before they join a political party.
However it's clear that the anti-Labour media are using this as a weapon. Forensically dragging over every bit of smalltalk and blurb Corbyn has ever uttered whilst apparently being ok with the fact that Johnson is a trashbag who spews every 'ism' going without a care in the world.
Plenty of photos of the Chief Rabbi hanging with Johnson.
Is this racism thing politically selective?
And ... how does this make Johnson fit for office?
Because Johnson and the tories will not critise isreal
Massive conspiracy loon site, TJ.
911, birthers, oh and a nice bit of Jewish banker conspiracy thrown in.
Well done.
A moment of research would have told you, but if it suits the narrative, eh?
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/What_Really_Happened
I’m not convinced – the Jewish Labour vote is not that big to start with
I am not convinced it makes any difference either. The Jewish vote is small combined with the fact that most people who are voting either don't believe the party to be anti-semitic or are not bothered enough about it to change their vote. In same way tory voters are not bothered about the islamaphobia in the tory party (which conveniently gets brushed under the carpet much more than anti-semitism within the Labour party).
Woeful position for labour to be in
Hopefully they'll be forced to make a change now & their new religious tolerance manifesto today will help.
Can't see any votes from the Jewish community coming back though.
Meanwhile Ivan Rogers (who's last well publicised speech predicted exactly what happened to Mays negotiations) has pointed out how Johnson has managed to box himself in, in exactly the same way for the more complex Future Relationship talks.
Sorry CFH. Lazy from me.
The maps are real tho and that is what I was looking for.
that goes back to the Bolsheviks
Yep, Karl Marx, Leon Trotsky, Rosa Luxembourg, Ygael Gluckstein, Ernest Mandel, Harry Pollitt, John Berger, Ralph Miliband all terrible anti-semites
I must say I find it rather implausible that the views of people who must be long dead would have influenced party policy today.
Are you new here? Aren't all parties influenced by the views of people long dead? To start with the easy ones; DUP. For another there's the Loyalist/Protestant/Rangers FC contingent in Scotland.
TJ please please stop with this. Please think about what you're saying. You are using the global conspiracy/divided loyalties trope of "All Jews are controlled by Israel" to divert criticism of a British political party by British citizens.
It's not a right wing press issue, it's a labour party issue that actually exists, that you a white man in Edinburgh who has no personal experience of it is, I think, part of the issue here, Labour activists I know personally have had pretty abhorrent abuse thrown at them by other labour members. You can argue the toss about whether Corbyn has sat on his hands or not (I think the executive have handled the whole thing really badly), but by denying the issue, you're party to letting it happen.
You can argue the toss about whether Corbyn has sat on his hands or not (I think the executive have handled the whole thing really badly), but by denying the issue, you’re party to letting it happen.
Agree. A very good example of why Corbyn should not be leader. He democratically allowed all the complaints to go through the processes and people that are in place. That may be fine for some things but when you have an issue of racism which is not being handled very well or anywhere quickly enough you then take control of it personally, as the leader.
For those of you who don't follow internal Labour local party politics (and why would you) look at the chart I've posted (of the religious voting in the 2017 election), and note that really large orange spike. That is the Muslim Labour vote. It's hugely hugely important in the story of both Labour support in the Midlands and the North West, and Anti Semitism, and why the Labour executive struggle with this issue so much. The Labour strongholds in the East Midlands and in large parts of the North West are Muslim. Not helped by muslim, or voted by muslim, to all intents and purpose, the Labour party in many of these areas IS muslim. Nationally it's massively important, there is absolutely no way that this vote can be lost...The Jewish vote on the other hand...ah, not so much...(voting is after all, a numbers game)
Here's the problem, there is unfortunately a teeny-tiny part of the Muslim vote that is anti Semitic, and the old guard of some of the Labour Party find common ground with them in the Palestinian struggle. I'll point this out for the hard of thinking, but it bears repeating. That the Israeli Govt are arseholes about Palestine, is NOT the fault of British citizens who happen to be Jewish, OK TJ? Have you got that message now?
I’m not convinced – the Jewish Labour vote is not that big to start with
Really? Have you ever been to Prestwich? Its the heart of the Bury South constituency. A huge Jewish community. Its been nailed on labour for ages. They haven't got a hope this time. And thats down to Corbyn.
Frankly, Its irrelevant what you or i think. The overwhelming opinion within the Jewish community (and I know enough of them to know) is that Corbyn is antisemetic, or that he's certainly tolerating antisemitism. I have Jewish friends who are life-long labour voters who are utterly scathing of Corbyn and his epic misjudgement (and thats giving him the benefit of the doubt) on this issue
I personally don't think he is, himself. But he is guilty of a total failure to get a grip of the antisemitism within the party through his usual role as spectator rather than leader (as per....). The way the whole thing has (or hasn't) been handled has been absolutely shambolic, at best. He's simply refused to take the issue seriously.
The Jewish friends i know will vote Lib Dem this time which will just hand the seat to the Tory's. So Bury South is one MP its definitely lost them already. Not really what they can afford to be doing is it? Chucking previously safe labour seats away? It just makes a Tory majority even more likely. And its entirely self-inflicted and unnecessary.
To start with the easy ones; DUP. For another there’s the Loyalist/Protestant/Rangers FC contingent in Scotland.
Tbf the DUP love a good bonfire & provocactive march to commemorate 300 year old sectarian battles
Interesting graph nickc !
I'm confused about no religion being smaller than all the others tho?
I suppose Johnson's islamaphobic comments have baked in opposition to the Tories in the Muslim communities too
Very sad to see 2 main political parties with such stark religious divisions between them
good to see the DUP looking for that next magic money tree...
Now we have Heseltine weighing in, again, against the tories - '....he is saying this morning that he doesn’t want to support a party that in his view - by pursuing Brexit - will make the country pooerer and will make it less influential across the world'.
In response, Gove says comments are....not helpful.
I’m confused about
It’s percentage/proportions, not absolute values. The three columns for each religion add up to 100%, they do not represent the size of the total vote share that religion has in any way.
So the long term political future of a country affecting the entire population..
possibly for decades to come..
can be swayed by the hate of a relatively small minority of religious zealots..
their anger directed at a particular figure to satisfy their spite..
facilitating the empowerment of a basically far right extremist party..
with seemingly no social conscience..
..the phrase cutting off your nose to spite your face pops up.
to vote in this election based on anything other than the long term effects
of the changes proposed is nothing short of idiocy or gullability of a high order
That the Israeli Govt are arseholes about Palestine, is NOT the fault of British citizens who happen to be Jewish, OK TJ? Have you got that message now?
Your post was reasonable and considered up until this point. I don’t make a habit of it, but I’m going to defend TJ here. NOTHING he has posted has suggested that he thinks that Israeli actions are U.K. Jews fault. To do so would be clearly antisemitic and TJ is many things but he’s not that.
I see it’s anti-semitism day. Think I’m about where this guy is.
https://twitter.com/how_upsetting/status/1199095858781999104?s=21
To do so would be clearly antisemitic and TJ is many things but he’s not that.
I don’t think the original post about conflating British Jews with Isreal was meant to be read as if TJ is antisemitic, no one has claimed, or even suggested that.
Think I’m about where this guy is.
Wow Dazh. Is that they very definition of a straw man?!? You’re better than that, I’d like to think.
A Labour govt would not usher in a new holocaust. The Labour Party are not taking antisemitism seriously enough.
TJ is antisemitic, no one has claimed, or even suggested that.
This clearly implies it, IMO;
is NOT the fault of British citizens who happen to be Jewish, OK TJ? Have you got that message now?
If he didn’t MEAN to imply it, he owes TJ an apology. If he DID mean to imply it, then he owes more than an apology.
A Labour govt would not usher in a new holocaust. The Labour Party are not taking antisemitism seriously enough.
Agree, but I do think people making statements such as "I wouldn't feel safe in this country under a Corbyn government and would have to leave the country" are a touch dramatic.
Yeah all my Jewish friends are really "anxious" living about living in a Labour run UK
In fact they are really looking forward to The Great Utopian Brexit Liberation and Tolerance of Minority Religions that is to come once we have taken back control.
Thank you V8
are a touch dramatic
A touch? They're nothing short of hysteria whipped up by the right wing with clear political aims. It's like McCarthyism never happened.
Look, this is all fairly simple. We live in a country which despite surface appearances, is still deeply racist at pretty much every level and grouping in society. Focusing on one tiny element of it in one group of society is plainly ridiculous. Anyone who can't see that the cause of anti-racism is being blatantly politicised for the advantage of one party needs to open their eyes. By all means lets root out racism wherever it exists, but lets do it universally, consistently and impartially. There is no area of our society where racism doesn't exist in some form.
And really if anyone thinks TJ is in any way shape or form anti-semitic then I despair. Can we get back to real issues now? Every word spent on this issue just feeds the hysteria. We need to stop, this sort of thing doesn't lead anywhere good.
Can we get back to real issues now?
I’m sure all us gentiles can get behind the idea of concentrating on other things but, for others, referring to antisemitism as something other than a “real issue” is pretty cold and hard.
Antisemitismis real accross all sections of society
Critism of Isreal is not of its self anti semitic but any critisim is often called anti semetic
Corbyn is willing to critise Isreal. That gets him called anti semetic
No one has yet been able to point to a single anti semetic thing Corbyn has ever done
Well, that is probably best taken back to the Corbyn thread.
I’m sure all us gentiles can get behind the idea of concentrating on other things but, for others, referring to antisemitism as something other than a “real issue” is pretty cold and hard.
He's not referring to antisemitism as the non-real issue he's saying the subterfuge for politicising should be treated with scepticism.
The chief Rabbi does not speak for all UK jews. he speaks for a part of them. You don't get to hear the other side do you?
here are some examples:
https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/