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Nope. 95% are aware of it, 5% are not.
If it wasn’t for the inflammatory headline, most people presented with the facts would consider it as close to ‘everyone’ as to make no difference.
Consider also that 2.5% of the population have learning difficulties.
Studies suggest that 7%-9% of the UK are functionally illiterate.
Also consider that your real hard core right-wing denier might be a member of the BNP, but even at their height in 2008 (before the likes of UKIP and EDF offered a more mainstream alternative) their membership was around 12k – or about 0.01 of the population.
This. (And thanks for posting, I shall be copying and pasting onto FB.) I googled and found 10pc have learning difficulties. 850,000 have Dementia.
I’d be interested to see how the poll was worded and the sample group.
I’d imagine the real figure is significantly lower.
Also this.
Given no two historians can agree on the year WW2 started I suspect you could create a similar clickbait headline with the start date for WW2. (I would argue 7 July 1937.)
we’re almost there
Not really the thread to try to downplay the unimaginable scale of the horror and tragedy visited on the World by Nazi Germany....
The Powerkite twins went to the Menin Gate with their school to watch the going doown of the sun thingy and trumpter so they were deffo taught about modern history although I think they spent alot of time of the history of the Kings and QUeeens of Engerland as well
outofbreath
Not really the thread to try to downplay the unimaginable scale of the horror...
eh? Did you not understand the post?
Simpler words: "let's make sure we don't end up doing the same"
Yes, maybe start with something close to home like a million dead Irish?
I don't think we would even get close to 95% knowing much about the Irish Famine, the Partition of India or other major points in history including a few mass slaughters by the British army and colonisers.
These are the inconvenient bits of history we try and brush under the carpet for an easier life. You could probably do an entire GCSE on the ways one group has tried to purge another from existence.
Been 'discussing' brexit with randon free tommy/yellow vest/'#wtonow' types on twitter there are some some people who seem to believe absolutely anything
several times Ive had twitter threads dissapear down conspiracy theory rabbit holes; con trails, vaccines, Israel secretly running the EU which is why we can never leave!
Its not just that there are huge gaps in peoples education its that its pretty easy to get sucked in by complete BS on the internet, especially when youve been softened up by decades of irresponsible & divisive press
I haven’t read the whole thread but I’ve just come back from Berlin and a walk around the topography of terrors. It should be compulsory education.
BBC2 now. It's riveting, but really upsetting.
we’re almost there
Not really the thread to try to downplay the unimaginable scale of the horror…
eh? Did you not understand the post?
I think I understood it. You were comparing a liberal 21stC democracy with no credible Imperial ambitions [1] and a vanishingly small armed services with a militaristic imperialist Facist Regeme (that only existed because of the starvation and misery of WW1 and the extreme economic and non-economic humiliation that followed it) that killed tens of millions and planned to kill tens of millions more and concluding the later was "nearly" the same as us.
If by "nearly there" you meant, "galaxies apart" then I'd agree, but I'm pretty sure you meant 'nearly there', hence I'm saying you were downplaying what the Nazi Germany did. Which is fine, I'm a liberal, I respect your right to claim that, but I also have a right to call you out and say they were *really* *really* bad. Google the 'hunger plan'. Have a look at what happened the children of Lidice. (...and everyone else there.)
[1] We can quibble about Iraq, Afganistan & Libya, but we were bit players there and don't have the capacity to do that off our own bat. Moreover, we've learned our lessons there, and if you want to call that Imperialism far from getting a taste for it it was a disaster and we've all decided to do a lot less of it.
These are the inconvenient bits of history we try and brush under the carpet
I'd never seen that quote before, thanks. It's pretty good point. Perhaps in addition to remembering the crimes our enemies committed we should have a national day remembering crimes we have committed.
...and if we want to focus on the crimes our Enemies committed we shouldn't really forget Japan. We spend a lot of time considering what they did to our POWs but what they did to Chinese non-combatants was far, far worse: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre ...and although I haven't got numbers I'm pretty sure that denial of Japanese atrocities in Japan in far more common than denial of Axis Continental European atrocities in the UK.
Dan Carlin covered it recently: https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-63-supernova-in-the-east-ii/
Perhaps in addition to remembering the crimes our enemies committed we should have a national day remembering crimes we have committed.
A day for this and a day for that is not what is needed, that is the sort of thing that gets people to think about it for 10 mins and forget about it.
This is what people need to learn about what built this nation, how we ended up rich, who we trampled to get here. It's never a competition about how many or who was worse it's about looking at all of history.
its pretty easy to get sucked in by complete BS on the internet
On the other hand it's never been easier to fact check stuff we hear.
(that only existed because of the starvation and misery of WW1 and the extreme economic and non-economic humiliation that followed it
Or was it? Britian is currently heading that way without being pushed by anyone and plenty of fascists get into power without starvation and misery. I'm not convinced with the Versaille treaty being entirely responsible for the rise of the Nazis.
A day for this and a day for that is not what is needed,
True, I got a bit carried away.
If you want to get a real flavour of how ignorant – or stupid – Britain has become, listen to Akala discuss Brexit at 36 mins in:
Is it because he's black and has a London accent?
Because, in a roundabout way his points were completely valid - the Brexit campaigned blamed Britain's ills on immigration and the EU when we really should have been looking closer to home.
P.S. He isn't the defining example of how stupid Britain is - white trash from up North are.
Is it because he’s black and has a London accent?
OK, could be a fair pint
P.S. He isn’t the defining example of how stupid Britain is – white trash from up North are.
Nope he blew it within seconds
…and if we want to focus on the crimes our Enemies committed we shouldn’t really forget Japan. We spend a lot of time considering what they did to our POWs but what they did to Chinese non-combatants was far, far worse: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre …and although I haven’t got numbers I’m pretty sure that denial of Japanese atrocities in Japan in far more common than denial of Axis Continental European atrocities in the UK.
I'm currently reading Hirohitos War - the west did a mighty fine ****ing job in Asia between the 18th and 20th century (from the destruction of China as a power, Indochina, British colonialism and American involvement in the Philippines) to create the conditions whereby Japan feel that it needed to go to war.
If you want to discuss Japanese atrocities, which were much more your typical war type battlefield atrocities as opposed to the ideological driven systematic destruction of a race - then you have to talk about what the West did to put them on a war footing in the first place. Where as the holocaust requires a good background on the centuries of antisemitism that preceded it.
Or was it? Britian is currently heading that way without being pushed by anyone and plenty of fascists get into power without starvation and misery.
I'm struggling to think of anywhere that has gone from Democracy to Fascism without some pretty extreme circumstances. Care to suggest some places? Russia, maybe. But was it really a true democracy to start with?
Care to give some examples of the UK becoming a fascist state? Who's the charismatic leader with a private army who's going to take over? Corbyn? Really? Where are we going to invade and who are we going to kill when we get there? Does fascism work without control of the media? What military power do we have? Are we building up a stronger police force, or is our police force completely impotent? How can you even begin to control the global media in the internet world. If the UK press start to lie to us it get exposed immediately. (As the article that prompted this thread - half a day on a cycling forum and the headline has been shown to be completely misleading.)
I’m not convinced with the Versaille treaty being entirely responsible for the rise of the Nazis.
Nor me. I think it was mainly starvation and communism. Britain had been blockading them throughout WW1 and, much of Europe, in addition to Germany was literally starving long after WW1. I think when your kids are starving you get a bit emotive and start to look around for groups to blame. Maybe the Jews are a bit wealthier, getting more food or perceived to be getting more food. (Apparently there were towns with big Jewish populations on some rivers, if the food didn't make it as far as them, people stated blaming Jews for grabbing it before them.) I'm convinced that was the root cause of a lot of the real hatred. Then the communists were doing really well. I think the support the Nazis the was was as much anti-communism as pro-Nazism. Then the Nazis were *really* good at PR. But yeah, I agree that Versaille wasn't such a big deal and the terms where far better than the Germans gave Russia in Brest-Litovsk.
If you want to discuss Japanese atrocities, which were much more your typical war type battlefield atrocities
Hmmmmmm.
then you have to talk about what the West did to put them on a war footing in the first place.
I'd agree. I'd think for many Japaese people Commodore Perry started WW2 in the 1850s.
Nor me. I think it was mainly starvation and communism. Britain had been blockading them throughout WW1 and, much of Europe, in addition to Germany was literally starving long after WW1. I think when your kids are starving you get a bit emotive and start to look around for groups to blame. Maybe the Jews are a bit wealthier, getting more food or perceived to be getting more food. (Apparently there were towns with big Jewish populations on some rivers, if the food didn’t make it as far as them, people stated blaming Jews for grabbing it before them.) I’m convinced that was the root cause of a lot of the real hatred. Then the communists were doing really well. I think the support the Nazis the was was as much anti-communism as pro-Nazism. Then the Nazis were *really* good at PR. But yeah, I agree that Versaille wasn’t such a big deal and the terms where far better than the Germans gave Russia in Brest-Litovsk.
It's way, way more complicated than that - read some Ian Kershaw. Historical antisemitism and German romanticism played a huge part in why the holocaust occurred.
The communists were polling around 20% IIRC and it was outlawing the communists that gave the Nazis the majority.
The lies and propaganda that lead to the Brexit vote are straight out of the Nazi propaganda model. Brits are being led down a dangerous path my media manipulation, lies, and manipulative politicians in just the same way as Germans were led cheering into National Socialism.
Hmmmmmm.
Well, they were anything but typical - but think Mai Lai on a grander scale.
It’s way, way more complicated than that
Of course, I'm banging out a post just before bedtime. You could equally make a case that WW2 was mainly about oil. But I was agreeing with whoever said you can't blame it all on
read some Ian Kershaw
I'd agree he's the man on this topic, but he seems to constantly quoting Germans saying they're had been starving between the wars and complicated brutal plans to secure food for Germany and never really picks out that it might be a crucial factor. But yeah, I'd agree Kershaw is the man either in writing or presenting verbally on this topic.
Historical antisemitism
But countries and areas of Germany that had no tradition of Anti antisemitism got involved. Holland sent 80pc of it's Jews to Concentration camps yet had a history of terrific relations with a well integrated Jewish population. I'm sure that was a massive part of it in a lot of areas inside and outside of Germany. (What tiny support the Nazis had in the UK seems to have been 100pc about anti-semitism. To them Jews were the problem and Nazis were the solution.)
I'm beginning to think that some people on this forum have never seen any of the the anti-Jew propaganda from the 1930s.
Type "nazi anti-Jewish propaganda" into Google image search, check out the anti-Jewish films, anti-Jewish literature... .
Now read all of the anti-EU articles in the DM, Telegraph and red tops over the past 40 years.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/22/20-reasons-you-should-vote-to-leave-the-european-union/
Brits are being led down a dangerous path my media manipulation, lies, and manipulative politicians in just the same way as Germans were led cheering into National Socialism.
Who the ** is cheering? Our Politicians are hated, theu can't achieve anything, they can't even get a majority. One of our main parties can't even get people to campaign for it at election time, let alone raise a 1,000,000 man private army. The other party can probably raise a private army (of sorts) but has lost it's popular support.
We've never been further away from a strong charismatic Leader with a load of enthusiastic support and an iron grip control of the media.
If you wanted to make the case for fascism getting control in this scenario you'd be far better of saying that the weakness and total lack of ability of our politicians to manipulate is paving the way for a future popular strong leader. (and that case *would* have strong parallels with the collapse of the Wiemar Republic. - but would still be bollocks in relation to the Uk.)
We’ve never been further away from a strong charismatic Leader with a load of enthusiastic support and an iron grip control of the media.
Farage and Johnson in 2016
Farage and Johnson in 2016
So your example of the terrific strong leaderto lead us on an imperialist conquest in killing 10s of millions in Europe and beyond is two unpopular has-beens who's political careers are completely over.
Both of whom are opposed to a single European State.
Lets assume they somehow gain power with a reasonable majority. They can hardly say "You know we said we wanted to be out of the EU, we actually want to invade it with our piss small 85,000 man Army/Navy/Airforce and unite it, but behind us." And once they open up the deathcamps how are they gonna stop it being all over whatsapp and twitter? Invade the USA as well?
It's just nonsense. ...and if you think it's not nonsense don't you have a moral duty to assassinate at least one them? You'd be saving tens of millions of lives.
I'm 48, I'm a barber from Bradford and I have yet to meet anybody with that opinion.
Lies and propaganda got Britain into its last major conflict with around 100 000 killed and will do into its next.
The xenophobia in British media has already brought Britain into a trade conflict with its tradin allies (allies until 29/3 unless art. 50 is withdrawn). How long before that trade conflict turns into real conflict as impoverished Brits are told by their red tops to it's all the fault of other countires and the only solution is military ? You'll be back to "gotta support the navy/troops". When politicians are in dire starits at home they start wars.
outofbreath
...You were comparing a liberal 21stC democracy...
You are joking, aren't you?
Liberal? Have you checked the death rate amongst the weak and vulnerable under this mob? And would a liberal govt be preparing to put troops in the streets in just a few weeks time to maintain order?
Democracy? Even Enoch Powell didn't regard our system as a democracy.
Nope he blew it within seconds
You agree that the defining example of stupidity in Britain today is that guy?
When we have this bright spark?
He makes this satirical moron look clever
You agree that the defining example of stupidity in Britain today is that guy?
When we have this bright spark?
Nope the fact you used what is the equivalent of racist groupings to sum up all the people form one area as the same. It was at the point where you were complaining about people generalising about somebodies race and accent.
Liberal? Have you checked the death rate amongst the weak and vulnerable under this mob? And would a liberal govt be preparing to put troops in the streets in just a few weeks time to maintain order?
What is the death rate amongst the weak and vulnerable?
Also, I can't find a reputable source that says troops will be put on the street for the purpose of 'maintaining order'. Do you have one.
You previously stated the UK was almost there in comparison with Nazi Germany. Read what happened to Jewish people in Nazi Germany in the 30's. We are nowhere near.
Also, what are the UK's eugenics pogroms that you speak of epicyclo?
Not sure about the lack of interest or education, there seems to be an active desire to deny the truth of the scale of the holocaust. I have to take issue with the idea that young people are too far removed. My kids were asking about the holocaust today. They already knew a lot, though still in primary school, both from bbc newsround but also from the projects run in the week before holocaust Memorial Day. Frankly the state of the political class coupled with the apparent death of rationalism and the death of a critical media in which to communicate leaves society exposed to bilious stupidity. So yeah the fact that a significant number of potential voters don’t understand the significance of the holocaust is worrying.
Nope the fact you used what is the equivalent of racist groupings to sum up all the people form one area as the same.
But aren't the worst levels of educational attainment found in white northern towns?
I mean, it's not racist if it's true 'ey....nod nod wink wink.
It's not a racist grouping either, it's possibly a prejudiced one. But it's not equivalent to a racist one because there aren't black institutions and ingrained socioeconomic factors conspiring to keep the white man down.
😀
It's probably classist my fellow cracker. (Look, I'm reappropriating this nasty nasty word with utterly evil historical connotations for you as a term of endearment).
Read what happened to Jewish people in Nazi Germany in the 30’s. We are nowhere near.
Also, what are the UK’s eugenics pogroms that you speak of epicyclo?
I have to agree, the fact that we are even comparing the UK in it's current state to the Holocaust and trivialising it is why a lot of Jews don't trust Europeans to this day and **** off to Israel.
Some of the posts on here comparing Brexit rhetoric to the Holocaust is bordering on the pathetic.
Brexit rhetoric is just that ... and generally free speech. On the margins , from both sides , it does slip into a hate aspect ...
But do not compare it to what happened in the Holocaust. You of the remain lilt lilt should know far better than to show such a clear contempt of what happened.
If you want to get a real flavour of how ignorant – or stupid – Britain has become, listen to Akala discuss Brexit at 36 mins in:
Is it because he’s black and has a London accent?
Ah my apologies, I didn’t realise you were racist and ignorant. If a few people had googled him like i suggested you release he’s and extremely intelligent and learned individual who’d educate you on the principals of forgotten history - deliberately or otherwise - which is directly relevant to the topic in this thread, specifically because the subject is directly related to our politics and monarchy which governs this oh so broken and confused country.
Mrmofo, Akala does have a passage in his vocabulary discussing the politics of nazi Germany and how it relates to Brexit today it’s a very interesting piece to listen to.
You've never spoken a foreign language in a Tesco queue or driven a car on foreign plates in small town UK then, mrmoofa. Fashion is becoming more international and universal but I have a fond memory of a Brit mate telling me he didn't want to be seen in the pub with me in in my obviously foreign looking trowsers. It was said in jest but he'd obviously thought it - I didn't change.
Brits find it quite OK to be loud-mouthed and often drunk in every ski resort in the Alps but object to people speaking foreign languages or just lookin foreign in small town UK.
If your free speech includes insulting people just because they are speaking foreign or look different you can keep your British version of free speech.
Edukatah (as we are being juvenile about spellings).... nice assumptions.
Lived in Germany for 1.5 years, Switzerland for 8. Have driven foreign registered cars in the Uk many times ....
I have no issues with people from different cultures ...
I have been a victim of what you highlight ... having been threatened by Swiss farmers for stealing Swiss jobs (long live SVP). Ironic, as I was doing a job that there was no Swiss could do, and paying full taxes etc.
I found it offensive , small minded, and slightly worrying that the police had no interest in getting involved ... and local villagers warned against doing anything as it would cause issues.
But comparing this to The Holocaust is just amazing crass. I would have thought you were better than that ...
Just a typo, mrmoofo.
But comparing this to The Holocaust is just amazing crass
I haven't, read back. I haven't used the word "holocaust" in any of my posts apart from a link to demonstrate Brits are more aware at 19/20 than most Europeans.
I'm pointing out that the elements needed for a rise in fascism and discrimination against minorities are increasingly present in the UK. Brexit is a symptom and part of the process.
I can't remember being taught about the Holocaust in history at secondary school (1970-77) but I didn't like the subject anyway so dropped it before O-Levels. On the other hand there was a general fascination for military subjects and "war" so I read a lot about the Holocaust and events and attitudes leading to it.
As someone posted earlier a lot depends on the actual questions being asked and how the answers were interpreted. If I'd been asked how many were murdered by the Nazis in the Holocaust how close to the accepted figure would I have had to state to be regarded as "correct"? And which figure? Jews only or should it include all those murdered?
English (it’s mainly English) propagandists for the “special” nature of the U.K. - it’s culture, history and “democracy”, have been exposed as frauds by Brexit.
There is just as much wilful ignorance, stupidity and dumb grovelling servility there as anywhere else.
Humans. Adrenaline glands too big, temporal lobes too small. Evolved, in the large part, to react not think and therefore always seeking simple answers to difficult questions, whilst looking for “outside” groups to blame and kill or otherwise oppress.
BBC2 now. It’s riveting, but really upsetting.
I watched that last night too and really felt they didn't need all the long 'artistic' close-ups of the survivors and just sat there wondering how they must have felt being filmed like that. It really didn't need it - what they went through was enough and we didn't need that style of filming to lend any more gravity to their stories. I am also (re)reading Primo Levi 'If This Is a Man / The Truce' - anyone with a passing interest in what life was like for interns in Death Camps should read it.
really felt they didn’t need all the long ‘artistic’ close-ups of the survivors and just sat there wondering how they must have felt being filmed like that. It really didn’t need it – what they went through was enough and we didn’t need that style of filming to lend any more gravity to their stories.
I didn't see last night's programme but if you are talking about close-ups of near-death camp survivors, I'd disagree. Just a glimpse of those horrific images can educate people far quicker than pages of text. The fact that it makes you uncomfortable speaks volumes. (Apologies in advance if we are talking about different things..)