Really Sebcranked, basic biology !
I'll corect... STW, in the main, is full of middle aged/old grumpy old bastards that ride powered bikes ! FFS.
We need female views please, not us 'lot'.
Really Sebcranked, basic biology
You just proved my point about the level of debate here. If you're viewing all of this through the filter of some kind of GCSE-level understanding of biology, you're starting from entirely the wrong place.
I never post on here but this is mega patronising. If you want an academic debate on the matter, don’t look for it on a mountain bike forum and then piss and moan that the level of debate is so low.
Given the demographic of this forum I’m proud of the amount of positivity in the comments.
OK sebcranked educate us eh - easy to say 'who said' etc. Hard evidence please, just like you've asked us.
I’ve always thought of bicycley type people and competition as being an inclusive sort of thing
Unfortunately, very little about cycling in the UK is inclusive. At the "global" elite level, the huge majority of riders are white and most admins/execs at UCI are European.
https://road.cc/content/news/cycling-must-address-lack-diversity-bicycle-association-299793
It's OK seb is after readers for his magazine !
You just proved my point about the level of debate here
Careful throwing those stones, a handful of posts ago you were straight in with the whataboutery
this is mega patronising. If you want an academic debate on the matter, don’t look for it on a mountain bike forum and then piss and moan that the level of debate is so low.
I'm not looking for an academic debate, just something above the level of "it's basic biology" (it isn't) and an acknowledgement that bioessentialist discrimination in sport has a dark and inglorious history, which we probably don't want to go back to.
I'm sorry if it came across as patronising. I have trans friends. Their lives are, at the moment, pretty shit with the toxic "debate" that happens everywhere, by people who are ignorant about trans people but whose opinions, in the round, affect their lives. So I get cross about it. I'm not going to apologise for trying to look out for my friends (none of whom are elite cyclists, btw).
I'm out. Have fun debating the lives of people about whom you know almost nothing.
Careful throwing those stones, a handful of posts ago you were straight in with the whataboutery
The race thing? Completely valid. No-one has picked up on it. Wonder why?
That’s a great idea. Let’s extend it. We can ask Asian athletes (who tend to be shorter) if they’re OK competing against white athletes, and white athletes if they’re OK competing alongside Black athletes?
Who could possibly object to that?
And you're the one complaining about the level of debate 🙄
Ok then @sebcranked
Rather than patronize us all, why not explain to us why you seem to have a view at odds with the UCI. I’m going to assume they probably took on board advice from actual real scientists on the matter afterall ..
Cycling as a sport isn't a good example of multi-cultural sport at all - some cultures it is just a means of transport, and it's also a sign of status - i.e. poor if you ride a bike not a car, so lets leave this out.
Give me top 100 times of male and female 100 meter runners, there would be few if any female runners that got in that top 100 of all time.
Meet Seb. Seb left his job in 1996 to take photos of – and write about – riding bikes.
Come on sunshine !
Wonder why?
because it was irrelevant bollocks I’d imagine.
Feel free to start educating through your debating skills anytime. One good thing about this forum is the a great many of the members are always keep to learn
at elite level, a male that’s gone through puberty is alot more powerful than a woman.
Your source for this claim (which I’m assuming you’re making in the context of trans women, not men)?
Well since this is a mountain bike forum in theory at least, how about this years DH world champs?
Fastest woman, Vali Holl, is a solid unit, pretty powerful by any standard.
She'd have finished 67th out of 73 against the men on the same course on the same day, half a minute slower than Charlie Hatton.
There's a female swimmer with a cock who recently did well in the US too, if you're looking for the poster child for male vs female power after puberty.
Claiming these people aren't allowed to exist if womens elite sport is protected is a bit of a jump.
There’s a female swimmer with a cock
i see the grownups have joined the debate
you seem to have a view at odds with the UCI. I’m going to assume they probably took on board advice from actual real scientists on the matter afterall ..
You should check if that's correct rather than just assuming it. Sport governing bodies can vary from good to terrible. I mean, Gianni Infantino is the head of the most powerful one...
I’m sorry if it came across as patronising. I have trans friends.
So there’s an assumption none of the rest of the STW middle age gammons opinions count because you have trans friends?
If we’re playing that game I was bought up in the horse world. Gay men and women where just part of the scene. I had many openly gay friends back in the late 70s and 80s. The riding school Friday night discos were legendary! Many a horse box was rocking by the end of the night.
An opinion on a sport issue doesn’t make you trans-phobic.
And the horse world is one of the few sports where everyone is on a level playing field - there are no classes for male or female.
Kate Weatherly's RootsandRain, while I admit her story and journey, the results tell it all for me.
Alot of of STW middle aged gammons have, and do, work in a very 'inclusive' environment - I know I do, and my family has gay and trans folk in it. My nephew is incredibly brave, left one summer as a male teacher, then returned as female and has a trans partner.Very brave as was very 'manly'.
All for inclusivity.
But there is something a little different at elite sport level, and we have to acknowledge that. We can't shuffle this under the table.
I think if you asked women (not that you find many on here) that they would have a slightly different opinion about 'levelling up' in specific sports/etc. than us middle aged MAMILS, in, sorry to say this, realtively good jobs, money to splash on loads a bikes cars/trucks/ vans/ Alpes to ride a ****ing bike...etc etc.
We don't need our (old blokes) opinions !
As it's been mentioned a few times here, where's the evidence that either supports, or doesn't, trans athletes competing with cis athletes with no advantage?
With depressing predictability, the same arguments being made. I said I'm not getting involved, but the majority of posters are missing the main point of Hannah's article. Please go back and read it properly and then maybe debate that?
And to the true bigots that have posted - while there's still a vocal opposition you and your views are dying out and one day you'll be history. Can't come soon enough for me.
How about they can compete but not officially have results recorded?
They get all the thrill of training ,competing and the satisfaction of knowing they won but without upsetting anyone.
There is no correct answer but this seems to cause the least harm.
<span style="caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; font-family: Roboto, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, 'Segoe UI', 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji'; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-size-adjust: 100%;">How about they can compete but not officially have results recorded
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how would that work in a game of tennis? Or football? Even in cycling it could majorly influence the outcome of the race?
Unfortunately there is no easy way to determine if an athlete has gained an unfair advantage through transitioning, and some may not have any advantage at all. Ideally you’d be able to say ‘you clearly have a bigger heart and lungs than the average female competitor so sorry but you can’t compete’ but that’s not really practical
Unfortunately there is no easy way to determine if an athlete has gained an unfair advantage through transitioning, and some may not have any advantage at all. Ideally you’d be able to say ‘you clearly have a bigger heart and lungs than the average female competitor so sorry but you can’t compete’ but that’s not really practical
As I posted above, Anton Weatherlly was a mid pack + rider. at National DH level in NZ, Kate Weatherly 2 years later podiumed Elite women's DH World Cup and scored a succession of top 10's at the same level.
I’ve been reading about this subject (academic journals included) for the past two year
Well, if that was correct, then you should also know that trans-woman are not being banned from sport (at least cycling). They are free to compete in the male category (or any open category if a race organizer has such a category).
And such restrictions only apply at the upper echelons of the sport so at grass-roots level, they are free to complete against females (at the behest of the organizer).
If we all spoke one of the many languages that have three genders (for people, I mean, not grammatical genders) then this debate would be completely different. A lot of this is down to the fact that there are only two words 'man' and 'woman' which is what causes all the arguing about which one you want people to call you.
I support sporting categories that exclude.
I support categories that exclude on the basis of ability, so that disabled athletes can be included in sport.
I support categories that exclude on the basis of age, so that youth and senior athletes can be included in sport.
I support categories that exclude on the basis of sex, so that women can be included in sport.
Everyone here supports exclusion too. It’s simply a debate about whether the women’s category should exclude on the basis of sex or on the basis of gender identity.
Sex matters in sports, folks. That’s why we have women’s categories.
As it’s been mentioned a few times here, where’s the evidence that either supports, or doesn’t, trans athletes competing with cis athletes with no advantage?
I think we are in a stormy early phase with this, and until there is a reasonable amount of proper scientific data to come to an informed decision, its largely perceptions. How long it will take to get a dataset big enough to be accurate is another barrier.
Similar debates have been in women's sport for much of my 50 years, I remember an Eastern European middle distance runner, and Caster Semenya more recently, being considered too butch to compete in women's events.
In the meantime, let's be inclusive. I'm not seeing trans women filling podiums, no one goes through that process justbfor sporting glory.
<span style="caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; font-family: Roboto, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, 'Segoe UI', 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji'; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-size-adjust: 100%;">As I posted above, Anton Weatherlly was a mid pack + rider. at National DH level in NZ, Kate Weatherly 2 years later podiumed Elite women’s DH World Cup and scored a succession of top 10’s at the same level.
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im not for one minute disputing the fact that many trans athletes could have an advantage that doesn’t go away after transitioning, bigger heart, lung capacity, reach, stride length etc etc (although in the case stated it could equally be that the female talent pool is just far smaller so genetic advantage may not be as much of a factor)
however I’m not sure ALL trans females would have a physiological advantage over other females. Ie I’m pretty sure a 6 foot plus college level male athlete who transitioned would retain far greater advantages than a five and a half foot 8 stone bloke, with no remarkably physiological advantages in the first place, who did the same.
It would of course very much depend on what sport they are partaking in as well..
So it seems that single-track don't really support free speech and they have lost another subscriber
So it seems that single-track don’t really support free speech and they have lost another subscriber
They do but Free speech doesn’t cover private platforms and it also does not mean you won’t face consequences. We certainly take action on terms that are defined as a hate crime.
Well the discourse seems to have gone exactly as well as could be expected. 🙄
Well the discourse seems to have gone exactly as well as could be expected
You mean generate traffic? Mark will be happy!
@stue once again, free speech doesn't mean anyone can say whatever they like without consequence. It means the government can't arbitrarily stop you from saying anything it feels like. So for example, if you say 'Rishi Sunak is shit' you won't get dragged away in the night here like you would in some countries.
There are laws to prevent harm being done through words, and rightly so - you would be complaining about just the same it if you were on the receiving end.
How about they can compete but not officially have results recorded?
They get all the thrill of training ,competing and the satisfaction of knowing they won but without upsetting anyone.
Ooh like negros? Seperate but equal.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendell_Scott
If we all spoke one of the many languages that have three genders (for people, I mean, not grammatical genders)
Which are those? Genuine question.
Madame found it irritating competing against doped athletes, it felt unfair, I understand female athletes who find competeing against trans women unfair. Like Alpin I think that the people deciding who competes in women's sport should be the women competing. Level playing field, fair, they are the principles of sport. In swimming we've seen very average male athletes become excellent female athletes, do those supporting trans athletes think that's fair? I don't.
As for STW taking an editorial stance, that's fine. The editorial stance on Brexit was remain. Cameron also campaigned for remain and see where that led. I can't read the article cos I don't pay so I'm responding more to the comments and STW's editorial position as previously stated (which I disagree with) than Hannah's article.
Reading some of the stuff beyond STW it struck me that trans athletes in sport and the contravesy surrounding them is counter productive for the image of trans people in general. Unfortunate for the vast majority of trans people who don't compete in sport and wish to integrate society being accepted for what they are rather than something they are not.
I'm in favour of people being able to gender identify as they wish. However, the scientist in me knows about chromosomes and the advantage in sport of having male ones
So whilst being no great fan of the UCI or swimming federations I think their decision on genders are appropriate.
That said, if trans athletes have to change pre puberty as the current rules say that poses a heap of ethical questions. Beyond 12 there is a significant differance between male and female performance; so to comply with current conditions children are going to have to make decsions which will affect the rest of their lives at an age they are very vunerable to infulence and grooming, that to me is unethical.
Remember how people of colour
Coughs, I believe this is incorrect now, we all have a colour.....
For fundamentally non-competitive sport and games, I don't care if someone puts on a skirt and calls themselves Susan at parkrun for example.
Those arguing for integration in competition need to start by asking what the purpose of the women's category in the first place is. We could just all compete together as one group, but we (usually) don't.
being excluded from participation in a sport for not neatly conforming to a binary labelling system feels like constructive exclusion
It is indeed by it's very definition. However, that is because we determine who can participate in a sport by sex. Men's and women's football / rugby / tennis is a sex based segregation - for very very good reasons.
If you don't want to determine who can participate in a sport by sex, then how are you going to do it? Is it a free for all "one open category" like @johncoventry says?
If so, look forward to seeing no women in top-level football, or rugby, or tennis. Ever.
If we're going to have men's and women's sports we have to differentiate - and sex is the fairest way to differentiate.
Trans people aren't differentiated by sex. They're differentiated by gender. Trans women are excluded from female sports because they're genetically male - and that is a massive difference that cannot be overcome.
I see no substantial difference between excluding Trans Women and excluding Black Women
Then I'm sorry, but despite what you said here:
I think we’ve all had the obtusely scientific perspective on Gender and Sex explained to us ad nauseam
It seems that you need more science-based education. Science is not "obtuse" - its the system we've built our world on. Without it we'd still be living in wattle and daub huts. The difference between a black woman and a transgender woman - who is actually genetically a man - is massive and undeniable and if you posted that on twitter rather than this rather welcoming forum you'd be getting vilified for stating such an "offensively inappropriate" opinion. But I'm not going to hang you for naivety -
To illustrate in good faith:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-66715669
For that "embryo model" the starting material was "stem cells". If you took stem cells from a transgender woman and started building an embryo, what do you think you'd get?
You'd get a man.
That may sound harsh to some, or mean, but it's not meant to be - it's simply a statement of fact. You'd get a man - with all the strength advantages that gives.
@sebcranked
I fully disagree with your opinion too, for many of the same reasons:
The cod “science” about “biological reality” that echoes around social media and even mainstream media outlets is incomplete at best and simplistic claptrap at worst
This is simply scientific denialism of the worst kind.
If you grow up a boy, then no amount of testosterone therapy can wipe out that advantage.
Sex and gender are two different things.
If, as you say, "Sport starts from the principle of inclusivity, or it is worthless" then you have to ban sex-segregated sports.
No more mens and women's football, rugby or tennis. Everyone can compete against each other. That's the most inclusive principle.
Good luck seeing any women at the top level then.
Your "inclusivity above all" worldview is blinkered, unfortunately. There IS an objective reality that we have to be mindful of.
BTW - just to be clear - on transgender issues the ability to compete in elite level sports isn't the problem.
It's the mundane day-to-day life of the vast majority of transgender people that's the problem. We need to concentrate on making life easier for everyone at that level. The sports discussion is a distraction that affects a vanishingly small minority of transgender people but it's being used to halt progression on things that will make a real difference to the vast majority of trans people.
It's the new moral outrage of our time. The discussion around elite sports simply drums up opposition for movement where we should be making accomodations. It's a distraction from what's important and what we can, and should do to accomodate our transgender brothers and sisters.
Stop getting suckered in.
