Is this the week when all the stupid annoying bits of mountain bike tech are finally going to be fixed? We've already seen two takes on improving the ...
By stwhannah
Get the full story here:
https://singletrackworld.com/2021/11/lal-bikes-supre-drive-a-better-derailleur-solution/
I'm going for a Honda DH bike style in frame derailleur box....
That WRP doesn’t look to be 12 speed though, like Lal is promising.
That drivetrain is a fun concept, but it surely has a lot of drag because of the number of times the chain engages and disengages with sprockets. The Supre Drive doesn't have the drag of that drivetrain or others like the Pinion gearbox. Also, that WRP drivetrain has a tiny cassette. It's clear that it won't replace conventional derailleur drivetrains.
cedrico
Also, that WRP drivetrain has a tiny cassette. It’s clear that it won’t replace conventional derailleur drivetrains.
Yeah, fine for a DH bike, but getting a 52t Eagle cassette in there?
Interesting, would like to see more. My money would be on something similar to chainstay-mounted derailleur on the OTT FX-FR that was featured on this very site a week or two ago. Not sure what he'd have planned for the chain tensioning side of things, but there's a few options out there that could be employed or adapted.
WTF kind of news article is this? Can you let us know when there's actually some news instead of attempting to manufacture hype for someone we've never heard of?
You only want news about things you already know about?
You only want news about things
you already know about?
If the thing in the article doesn't have a price tag yet how can I complain about how expensive it is? Even worsely, if it doesn't even exist yet I have to start inventing all kinds of reasons to criticise it and I resent being made to think that far.
It looks like a normal (style, but proprietary) mech that is twisted up out of the way, added benefit of no chain growth due to high pivot.
Is it only the no chain growth that gives it its compact nature. With a redesigned chainstay would this work on any and all full sussers?
Still has the cassette and mech at the rear as unsprung mass, so not the game changer some may have hoped for.
It'd better be good cos it sure aint pretty.
It’d better be good cos it sure aint pretty.
I'm unclear on the purpose of the company. Are they trying to sell the unique drivetrain which requires a proprieatry frame/rear triangle, and thus necessitating a test bike to put it on for marketing purposes?
Or are they trying to sell the full bike? Because needlessly low top tube is an aesthetical no from me (and is reminiscent of the Sick! frames).
Working with to-be-named north american brand may suggest the former.
You only want news about things you already know about?
No, I want news that actually includes some information.
Which we now have. It looks interesting.
A Better Derailleur Solution?
Another one?
Now I've read the article on the other website, I'm coming round to the idea, it has cleverly combined the high pivot/idler suspension, with a more compact and efficient deraillier set up in a way that previously had two separate (and therefore non optimal) systems. Colour me impressed.
Front triangle still fugly though.
Considering he just bought himself a welder and taught himself welding, the bike looks great. And he's not selling the bike - he wants to manufacture the system and sell it to bike companies, and seems he has one lined up already
Good luck to him, it's clever.
Bollocks, I had this idea about two months ago.
I also had the idea about Colnago's Blockchain bike register thing about a year ago.
I really have to start doing something about these things.
I quite like that. Already having ideas of the hardtail frame I could make around it.
I like that concept. A cyclocross version would be interesting - our family goes through about one mech per 3 races between us.
Given that bikes with one idler pulley system are draggy as *****, two idler pulleys are going to be a nightmare.
*technical term
Given that bikes with one idler pulley system are draggy as *****, two idler pulleys are going to be a nightmare.
*technical term
It has the same number of pulleys as a regular drivetrain, high pivot idler bike. I’ve had no issues with extra pulleys, drag wise.
I like the idea - I'm not a smasher of mechs but still sounds good to me
agree that the frame's ugly but then it's a proof of concept thing
Good lad, just watched the video. That's some impressive work.
I had a very innocuous low speed knock against a log earlier this year. Cost me a new mech, hanger, and new spokes and re-true in a near-new back wheel.
Hopefully it has all the benefits he claims and this gets some momentum.
I like that concept. A cyclocross version would be interesting – our family goes through about one mech per 3 races between us.
The front tensioner would soon fill with mud at a cross race.
That was quick!
Finally! Looks great. Wonder if it makes taking the wheel out or changing the chain harder
So, Honda were there first then.....
Spliting the derailing part from the tensioner was how it was before Campag developed the 'modern' derailleur, with systems in the 1930's like Osgear.
And is exactly how the 2 and 6 speed Bromptons shift between their rear cogs today.
Bike looks OK to me. Makes sense to have a huge standover if you can only make one demo bike.
The system looks OK too. Not so wacky that no will entertain it, regardless of benefits (e.g. alt-sus forks).
The achilles heel of rear mechs being in the line of fire often comes up but if they were vulnerable we'd have ditched them years ago. It's a problem that doesn't exist.
It has the same number of pulleys as a regular drivetrain, high pivot idler bike. I’ve had no issues with extra pulleys, drag wise.
These pulleys are larger than the missing jockey wheel so might actually be more efficient.
I think it's ace
The achilles heel of rear mechs being in the line of fire often comes up but if they were vulnerable we’d have ditched them years ago. It’s a problem that doesn’t exist.
That's a brave claim.
It's clever and all that but man, just give me a 5 speed gearbox FFS.
The achilles heel of rear mechs being in the line of fire often comes up but if they were vulnerable we’d have ditched them years ago. It’s a problem that doesn’t exist.
They are vulnerable, but the issue manifests itself relatively rarely. I mean across all gear-dangler equipped bikes.
Mech smashing issues primarily affect off-road riders and mostly those participating towards the "Gnarr" end of the scale.
The problem that most alternative solutions to derailleurs face isn't necessarily technical, it's mostly market based, your main target group are a niche within a niche still. And when that solution potentially comes at a substantial premium converting interest to sales is even more challenging. If it could be sold in other areas it would have a better chance perhaps.
He's done the right thing IMO; develop the idea into a working prototype, file patents and setup a company to act as the commercial side to his interests, then go looking for an established manufacturer because he's not only pushing a drivetrain idea, it's a whole bike essentially, and he won't have the resources to turn that into a viable business on his own...
It’s clever and all that but man, just give me a 5 speed gearbox FFS.
(* Out of stock/probably not enough range/probably not quite what you had in mind).
Love it, hope it gets put into production.
Ta Da!*(* Out of stock/probably not enough range/probably not quite what you had in mind).
Indeed 🤣
Not really
Still has a dangling mech when in the smaller sprockets. And more idlers. And, well, look at it.
It's not a revolutionary game changer but it's nice to have options.
if this is successful or not this chap has gone and got himself a patent on a new invention, realised that invention, and built two bikes to test it. and started a company to exploit it. and got another bike company interested in it. at 26. this may not be 'it' for him, and it may not be your idea of a better mousetrap, but i'd put money on him doing very well indeed with something. congratulations Cedric.
@shermer75 For the Supre Drive, taking the wheel out and changing the chain aren't any harder than on regular bikes. On the chain tensioner, there's a position lock feature that locks the position of the tensioner arm in a way that gives chain slack and makes it easy to get the wheel on and off. I didn't have this on the first prototype bike and that was a pain, but the second prototype bike has it and it's great. This feature also makes it easy to change the chain.
@Del has it.
The inertia in the bike industry is incredible.
Everything has to be compatible with everything else, look at where the gear hanger still is to this day, surely not the best position is it.
It may not be next year but at some point bike drivetrains will look completely different.
At that point if they look like this then this guy will be cashing in.
He might sell a few bikes in the interim.
This actually looks nicely resolved, and extra idlers are now mainstream on high pivot bikes.
The only question I'd have is where do I get a rear mech in 5 years time if things don't work out...
If no one tried this stuff we'd still be riding what were effectively road bikes offroad like we were in the 90s.
I've spannered 3 mechs in 20+ years. One onf those on the road bike. And amother one of those was actually my mate running into the back of me and using my mech as a instant stopping device.
Shimano told us about 10 years ago they'd solved the rear mech vulnerability with the 'shadow' mech design.
@cedrico - congrats on making it this far and hope you get it nailed down into production.
I’ve been convinced that a high pivot / gearbox / alternative drive train solution is the direction for mountain bikes to go. Ive tried a lot of them over the years and some have come close but this looks on paper that it is a a very neat package. Can’t wait to try it at some point, when you get out into the wild.
I like this idea and wish cedrico all the best. I've 3 xt mechs on the bench awaiting repair / canabalising so this can't come soon enough.
+1 on Del's comments.
Congratulations @Cedrico it's an awesome achievement & I wish you every success with it.
I'm no mech breaker (don't think I've broken a single one in 30+ years of MTBing but then I'm pretty careful on line choice and very mechanically sympathetic) but I can definitely see the benefit of this. I despair when I see mechs dangling down at rim level on MTBs just to get the 5x range needed in modern drivetrains, it's just asking for trouble.
I do wish it solved the unsprung weight issue as it's still beholden to the massive cassette and all the weight that adds but a frame mounted gearbox would add a bucket load of drag so swings and roundabouts.
wzzzz
The inertia in the bike industry is incredible.
Everything has to be compatible with everything else
Except when it doesn't - I don't see this being significantly different to 15mm axles or "Boost" or "SuperBoost" or any other new standard that's designed to solve 1 single problem but consigns all the old stuff to history. It's fine for those that replace whole bikes but for this of us that develop their bikes along the lines of triggers broom it sucks.
This is definitely a new bike worthy development and for that should be applauded.
cookeaa
Ta Da!*
(* Out of stock/probably not enough range/probably not quite what you had in mind).
That's what I'm adding to my retro gravel bike to give enough range for an old frail person like myself to ride offroad and Rough Stuff in the Highlands, so surely it's enough for all the superbly honed hard riding heroes of STW? :).
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Cedric is to be congratulated. He looks to have overcome most of the disadvantages of the derailleur while maintaining its main advantage, efficiency compared to other gear systems.
There's just one more thing needed.
Full enclosure so that the transmission lasts the life of the bike. That requires a quick detach wheel that leaves the freehub and cassette attached to the frame.
There’s just one more thing needed
That'd be the Millyard DH bike then. Shame more wasn't made of that.
And is exactly how the 2 and 6 speed Bromptons shift between their rear cogs today.
Have you seen the new 4 speed Brompton derailleur system - one jockey wheel mech and separate tensioner- unfortunately does not appear retrofitted to ordinary Bromptons