Zwift Team Time Trial, Thursday

Welcome @rj2dj! Yes that's right, you entered correctly. You didn't need to join the STW team on zwiftpower but it's good for other reasons that you did. So do stay a member! Once teams are sorted for this week you'll need to "tag" your zwiftpower name with the team label. I'll post proper instructions for that with the team rosters.

The F and L thing: the categories on zwiftpower get modified after the event to represent the (coffee based) classes that teams are classified into in the TTT. That depends on the mix of category riders in each team - F is Frappe (max 3 As), L is latte (max 3Bs). We ride in both, depending on who is around each week and how they divide into teams. (Once the teams are chosen that's all automatic).

Bear with me (everyone, not just @rj2dj) and I'll get teams posted asap, sooner than usual...

Not that it matters an iota, but ZP has put me in my rightful place as a B cat again. A very brief, if unsuccessful foray into ‘A’ brought with it unimaginable pains.

Teams for tomorrow! Start delays are TBC, I will post as soon as I know them. Everyone in the start pen by 19:40.

Team STW
@phil56
@paino (welcome back to B!)
@dangeourbrain
@yanboss
@munkeymadness
@trolo1234
@scaredypants - change your tag
@rj2dj (trust me!) - you need an (STW) tag see below

Team MoreSTW
@w00dster
@karnali
@slowpuncheur
@robbo1234biking
@zilog6128
@drew
@haloric

@phil56 will herd STW.
@robbo1234biking has some strategic ideas for MoreSTW to try out.

This is @rj2dj's first TTT. @phil56 will take care of you. General info:
- team tag. you need to tag your "Rider Name" in zwiftpower with your team name in brackets. so "Name (STW)". Go here https://www.zwiftpower.com/events.php?zid=1645529 for the event, then settings top right and type the whole thing not just the tag into My Name. This lasts just one race.
- outfit. we usually wear the bumblebee jersey. ride a road bike (the draft is the whole point). choose mismatched socks just to wind up robbo.
- start process. you've seen this already, I see. On GO! you must NOT GO!. You must be at zero watts when the onscreen clock gets to zero, and stay at zero watts until the team's allocated departure slot. This will be a few minutes later, I'll confirm in a future post when they are released. when that time has elapsed, then you must GO GO GO. This will be counted down and coordinated over...
- comms. each team has a discord channel. join the server here: https://discord.gg/mQ6Xnepc the voice channels are over on the left. use TTT (Team Name).

That's it. Good luck everyone. This is a familiar course. There are no really big climbs but there isn't much flat either. And you probably don't need reminding that there's a long way still to ride if you shed riders on the Reverse KOM on the first two laps....

Watch this space for start delays. Feel free to use the time between now and then to brainstorm strategy.

Strategy ? I'm brainstorming rapid weight-loss techniques to keep up with those ^ fast buggers !

Good evening MoreSTW.

@zilog6128
@karnali
@w00dster
@slowpuncheur
@drew
@haloric

The plan for tomorrow evening is as follows:

We are going to try and take it in turns to take pulls on the front. For this we will take pulls at 300w. I appreciate mrhoppy saying that they aim for a speed but at the moment I think it is more about getting the technique right and as the course is fairly undulating I think a wattage target will be easier for people to stick to.

Based on your FTP from ZP I have devised the below pull order. At 300w 3 of us are only just over FTP so I have put us with 60s pulls and the other riders at 30s pulls. If you would like to do a longer or shorter pull let me know.

The order is as per the list below. This also shows a column which shows the percentage of FTP you will be doing for that pull to achieve 300w. Memorise who you are going after so when I call there name be ready for your pull coming up next. Try and stay as a paceline but if we blob up a bit dont worry. Also when it is your turn to do the pull if you dont get on the front straightaway dont worry. The other rider will be dropping back so dont sprint to get in front of them as you will just be burning matches.

[url= https://i.postimg.cc/D0G3GVX8/TTT-1.jp g" target="_blank">https://i.postimg.cc/D0G3GVX8/TTT-1.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

This table shows the approximate watts you should be doing when in the paceline.

[url= https://i.postimg.cc/W18Lgwh6/TTT2.jp g" target="_blank">https://i.postimg.cc/W18Lgwh6/TTT2.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

For the hills we will group on haloric and he will pace us up them. There are 3 points on the reverse KOM where we will need to do this. On the false flat sections of the KOM will try to get haloric a rest by blobbing up and sheltering him.

karnali and w00dster - can you cover the back of the group to cover anyone who might drop off. Call it early so we can slow the pace.

Thats it really! Any comments/questions/alternatives?

Cheers

Start delays:

STW 12 minutes, in the pen by 19:40 and off at 19:52

MoreSTW 5 mins, in the pen by 19:40 and off at 19:45

@robbo1234biking that all looks good in theory ,let's see how it works out in practice, thanks for all the work that's gone into this

@robbo1234biking speaking to a mate who races TTT regularly he says not to ease off much until on the back if pace line or you just get dropped, don't know your thoughts on this

I dont think we will have a perfect pace line - it will be more of a lollipop so 2-3 riders on the front and then a bit of a blob at the back. Dropping to the back takes a bit of practice. You can sink and sprint like in this video:

https://zwiftinsider.com/ttt-secrets-matt-gardiner/

Or ease of more gently which means the transitions may take a bit longer. I guess see what works for you. We wont get it perfect tomorrow but hoping it is the first step to improving the whole technique.

Looks very good Robbo, looking forward to it.
Also, just to add, I won’t mind taking more efforts should other guys need a rest. Will leave you to do the calling on this. But I imagine 120 and 130% of ftp for 30 seconds might get very tough towards the end of the race.
How long is this race estimated to take?

Yeh I agree w00dster. Drew has the toughest role so if you are a bit under 300w don’t worry. I think 120% for 30 secs should be ok as you then get 2-3 mins rest in the pack.

Should be 43 to 45 mins I think.

If anyone needs to drop a rotation to rest up a bit more shout up and we can handle that.

I've just been for a recovery spin and found that keeping a steady 300w for 30 secs isn't that easy (even on desert flats) so expect watts to fluctuate between 280-320w. 30 secs seems OK. The thing to watch is to increase speed gradually as the person pulling off the front doesn't need to deal with an acceleration in the group when they are trying to hook on.

Thanks Robbo & wOOdster, if I’m struggling I’ll shout out. I can remember it being very tough last time and I didn’t last the distance but there should be longer rests this time round.

Yeh hopefully this time round drew we won’t burn you out. I think we lost a couple of riders on that ttt so ended up short and the turnover was quick. Hopefully more rest this time but if 280w is a more sensible target then go for it. It still gives other riders 30 seconds of additional rest.

Agree on wattage target Paul (T) it won’t be a perfect flat and will fluctuate a bit.

Is it worth suggesting that riders change the power settings in Zwift to 3sec smoothing to help people smooth their power delivery rather than over/under shoot their targets?

If you find yourselves short an A my normal squad did not get registered in time this week. Would be up for filling a gap is you have one (don't though if it'll bump up a coffee class).

Hi @nixie there is a space on MoreSTW but you might be better suited to STW. @savoyad might shuffle the teams slightly to suit?

Hi - all, I've signed up for this evening's event.

Hi all

Might as well do this transparently - @nixie and @mbs effectively signed up simultaneously (in different ways) to be the 16th and 17th rider and there's only 16 places - which is awkward but hardly world ending.

Before I toss a coin / choose a favourite / bribe you all over PM / make a rational choice or whatever if anyone is already unable to ride later can you speak up? DO NOT PULL OUT to make a space, that would be stupid.

I'm riding in zone 2 (10.20) so I'll disappear for a bit and I'll sort it later. @nixie it's not unheard of for teams to email their way in after missing the deadline. Maybe too late for your usual setup to organise riders even if that works, I realise...

@savoyad I can make it easy. @mbs is a better fit for morestw and won't push them up a coffee class. As I'm normally in another squad it would make more sense for the them to ride as it would be very rare for me to enter in a STW team. I will be zwifting one way or another tonight so if you do get a dropout let me know but otherwise I will get on with working on my power :D.

It was several squads that got missed sadly due to life getting in the way, email entry not on the cards this time.

For the hills we will group on haloric and he will pace us up them.

Finally someone writes the unwritten rule - bloats before goats !

At least this should ensure I'm in touch at the top, ...if we reach the top.

@robbo1234biking couple of Qs as I wasn’t around for the first one... are you intending to call all the changes yourself or do you want us to keep an eye on the clock & do it ourselves? Are we aiming to get into 2nd position when we’re up next, and go from there? And you said “accelerate gradually”... should that be from when our pull starts, or should we already be up to speed at that point? Ta!!

For the hills we will group on haloric and he will pace us up them.

Finally someone writes the unwritten rule – bloats before goats !

At least this should ensure I’m in touch at the top, …if we reach the top.

Although slightly more difficult to execute can I suggest that haloric paces but in someones draft. That way you can use the slight draft advantage. Requires the rider providing the draft to really pay attention.

w00dster will call the changes. He will just say who is up and then you take your position at the front of the paceline. Remember who is in front of you so you know you are coming up. You should get 4-5 mins rest in the pack. If it all works well then I think it will be one pull each between the hill each time.

In terms of positioning you don't have to be in 2nd position but definitely in the front 4.

The accelerate gradually reference was because when we did it last time people were sprinting to get to the front and then that burnt us out quicker. Just let the change happen gradually - if you are doing your 300w for 30 seconds then that is the aim. Just because your avatar isn't at the front for all of those 30 seconds it doesn't matter. Its a bit like overtakes - it is easy to get overexcited when 5 seconds behind and start sprinting to get past but you just burn yourself out early - wait for a second gap and you can cruise past when you accelerate.

Once the final team is confirmed I will post up the call order. I will switch it around a bit so all the 1 min pulls go first followed by the 30 second pulls so it doesn't get to confusing.

Oh and for overtakes we will call them on the road but we will likely blob up a bit depending on how we are and where on the course it is. If we are just behind a team when we hit the crest of the KOM then we should back of a little, descend as a group and then accelerate coming off the hill. Passes downhill just gets messy and waiting 1 or 2 seconds will likely save time down the line with a clean pass rather than getting tangled up.

a few years ago when struggling with boredom who would have thought riding a turbo would have moved on to this!

a few years ago when struggling with boredom who would have thought riding a turbo would have moved on to this!

Here is the updated MoreSTW pull list. @mbs is on the MoreSTW team. I have reordered it so it is 1 min pulls then 30 second pull. I will have a copy of the list and so will w00dster. w00dster will do the calls on the ground.

Looking forward to it.

[url= https://i.postimg.cc/xCqZYxNd/TTT-1.jp g" target="_blank">https://i.postimg.cc/xCqZYxNd/TTT-1.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

Taking into account nixie's point. On the climbs we climb at halorics pace. karnali in front of him keeping the gap down to 1m and w00dster at the back to monitor the whole group.

Teams are all sorted, nothing has changed for most of you. It looks like tags are all set.

STW - 12 minute start delay
@phil56
@paino
@nixie
@yanboss
@munkeymadness
@trolo1234
@scaredypants
@rj2dj

MoreSTW - 5 minute start delay & check you've seen tactical plans upthread
@w00dster
@karnali
@slowpuncheur
@mbs
@robbo1234biking
@zilog6128
@drew
@haloric

Have a good ride. See if you can all get to the finish line (unlike me!).

I have just something small to add to the MoreSTW brainstorm (@w00dster @karnali @slowpuncheur @mbs @robbo1234biking @zilog6128 @drew @haloric)

It's a proof of concept this week, which isn't supposed to be perfect or optimal. If your allocated responsibility is too much, of course you should say so live this evening. It's OK to miss pulls and sit in. Every time someone ends up behind you in that case you are still doing a job for the team for example. So the floor is movable! But the ceiling is deliberately, for some of you, not supposed to be pushed higher tonight. A good outcome this evening would be that some of you feel like you could have pushed harder, or longer, or whatever. If that is the case, stick to the plan this evening, hold back for the team, get to the end in formation, and report back later so it can be adjusted next week.

what happened to your ride Adam ? dropout ?

No, much simpler than that. I got dropped (2nd time up the KOM).

Jesus, that must be some powerful team you ride with !

No, much simpler than that. I got dropped

Serves you right for winning on Tuesday! (bloody good effort on that by the way)

I found the link posted on the previous page giving some guidance on how to do them (and specifically things to look out for in Zwift) really interesting. Hopefully get to put some of it into practice tonight!

I guess I should be aiming for 30-45 second pulls @ 110% of FTP and see how I go?

Thanks @savoyad that's good advice. My thoughts are how do we know if the 'concept' works? As far as I can see, we don't have a benchmark to work from. How do we know if this is quicker for us than the normal blob with the stronger riders taking a bit more wind than the less strong? Do you see rival teams who tend to make similar times or would we need to set a benchmark time in a meetup maybe? I'm probably overthinking things now...

rj2dj - you're in STW, right ?
Not sure that "we're" doing the same process. In my experience there's a big spread of power in STW and I just do what I can on the front without battering myself to failure* (and also trying to save a bit for the hills). Not much chance of me meaningfully leading a team with some of those guys riding. They say that even just staying with a bunch helps it a little bit, so I'm sticking with that

*Course, your watts may be more plentiful than mine

Honestly in my view @rj2dj you really don't need to aim for anything other than familiarisation with the whole process tonight. Focus on starting successfully with the team (!) then riding with them, then getting deep into the race etc. Maybe close any gaps that open if you are well placed for that.
STW won't (as far as I know!) ride with the structure MoreSTW are planning. @phil56 will be on the discord voice channel and will look after you etc.
EDIT - @scaredypants beat me to it, basically.

It’s a good point and I think there is an element of trust in people like nixie who ride on fast teams as well as info available on the internet through Zwift insider etc.

We don’t have a benchmark to compare to so would have to go on how it feels tonight. Another aspect is whether being more tactical adds enjoyment to the experience and ensuring that everyone feels their construction has made a difference.

I would be happy to do a meet-up to do some testing (we have a Tuesday evening comping up in 12 days that is free?!) to try some different stuff.

@haloric
what s realistic w/kg for you up the hills, so I know what i'm aiming at to ride just infront.

@w00dster
@robbo1234biking
Just shout at me on discord if I need to go harder or easier on the hills, i'll do a check that I can hear in the pen but i struggle to talk much and ride at same time, I'll do my best, but assume i'm ok on checks etc. I'll make it known if i'm not!
Looking forward to it be fun to see how it pans out, just hope i move out of the start without a delay like last week.

@rj2dj for a first time out the most important thing is not to jump start. That means 30s before the event starts you need to be putting out 0W (there is a safety margin put in there). There are two ways to do that 1. Don't pedal :D. 2. sit in the pairing screen. With the 12 minute delay you will probably want to keep the legs warm while we wait. This only safe way to do that is sitting in the pairing screen. Then when we get close to launch stop pedaling, wait for the turbo to stop, then exiting the pairing screen ready to go.

If you do manage to jump start (it happens even to regulars) don't panic. Stop pedalling and get into the pairing screen to kill your power. Then wait for our proper start.

Serves you right for winning on Tuesday!

Thanks Brian. The two are probably not unconnected. I usually ride (at least one) short crit crushers race Weds breakfast time after a Tues eve race, which sounds a bit mad but I don't ride for placings, it's a totally different kind of effort, spins the legs out nicely etc. There was absolutely no chance of that yesterday morning, I couldn't get out of bed let alone on a bike. I felt much better later on but no doubt this morning was an extension of that.

whats realistic w/kg for you up the hills, so I know what i’m aiming at to ride just infront.

Thats a good question but I don't really know - it depends on the hill - I don't think there is much drafting on these hills, so if you are anywhere near, in front or alongside is fine - I'll be putting in what I can bearing in mind when I last did a turn on the front. My FTP is 268 @ 92kg, so close to 3w/kg

My biggest problem on these TTT is getting dropped near the brow of the hill, and not being able to get back on - the rest is gravy.

I'm gonna drop my trainer sensitivity, as I normally have it 60%+ but end up winding through the gears, and I'll change to 3sec power.

@haloric the trick we (BRT) have used at the top is for the rider(s) in your position to put a big spurt in over the top (I realise that can be a big ask). The speed boost and virtual gravity keep you in the mix as it goes down.

bollocks - computer crapped out. I'm screwed, sorry