UPDATE: Reviews section refreshed, redesigned, searchable: Go take a look
At least its not a 'which tyre' thread...right?
As you can probably assume, I'm after a steel hardtail frame. I've recently sold my Bird Aether 9a and so will be putting the parts from that on it. Most notably the fork I have is a 150mm Pike Ultimate; but I am considering busting it down to 130mm or 140mm when I have it serviced.
So: I have a Sonder Camino and a Trek Fuel Ex +. I want my hardtail build to sit in between those two bikes - good for all day, unassisted MTB adventures without battery anxiety or for when a gravel ride is too chunky and I don't want to be bent double for 6 hours. You know the deal.
My absolute first choice so far has been a Cotic Solaris; but they're very expensive and I don't like the current finishes they have. Adding £250 for a custom paint job makes that even worse, so as much as it pains me the Solaris is off the table, unless I can find one second hand.
I've been trying in vain to find a C3 in gloss forest but I don't think they made that many, and most second hand Cotic frames seem to be either C2 or XL, that I can find!
So - what are my alternatives?
Cotic Bfe - really doesn't look too different to the Solaris. Fits my fork immediately. A bit heavier. Cheap!
Pace 429 - Almost identical geometry to Solaris. Reports of weird brake mounts and poor customer service. Expensive
Bird Forge - would love to stay with Bird, but the Forge has a super high stack, very short stays and doesn't seem like an all day/biking packing choice to me.
Sonder Signal/Broken Road - Geos aren't quite right. I kind of want a different brand for each bike (no idea why, thats just how I feel)
Any other suggestions? I'm really after all day comfort so ideally 853 tubes, longer stays. A good all rounder. I've got about £600 to play with.
I don't think £600 and Reynolds 853 go together these days if you want a new frame?
I thought that would have been a nice budget for a steel frame, but obviously not. Does it have to be steel? I find that modern steel frames can be really harsh and often heavy with a lazy turn in. I would go as far as saying that my Ragley Big Al was comfier than most expensive modern steel frames, yet was lighter, handled better and was a fraction of the cost.
I was about to say the Ti Pipedream Moxie on eBay for £800 (proper good deal, but I couldn't quite justify it to replace my steel Moxie!), but it appears to be sold.
Keep an eye out for Steel Moxies...I got a barely used frame (literally unmarked) for £220 on eBay.
Great frames, adjustable chainstay length, very comfy all day bike, but happy to get lairy on the downs.
The Singular Swift is lovely, but that's £950 (although I think that includes a rigid fork).
It's not a boutique brand, but Planet X are shifting On-One Big Dogs for £399 at the moment.
Neither are 853.
There's also the Pipedream S6 but that's also over budget.
The Moxie is amazing (you don’t need 853 to get a great feeling frame - heat treated 4130 gets you most of the strength and then it’s down to butting and gussets) but Pipedream seem to be in a state of chaos so I wouldn’t buy one new.
The BFe looks fantastic and is very well reviewed - and Cotic’s customer service is excellent.
Bikepacking.com has the most detailed hardtail reviews I’ve seen and they review big forked bikes like this that aren’t normal bikepacking fare - worth a read!
The Bfe is certainly the one making the most sense at the moment at £650. I can stretch to that easy enough.
The Bfe is certainly the one making the most sense at the moment at £650. I can stretch to that easy enough.
Plus you get to buy it from Cotic who are all delightful people.
Another Moxie owner here, it's an incredible bike (the one I'd keep if I could only have one bike for anything).
But I've recently got a Stanton Sedona as a more XC type build... in your situation and looking to sub in for a Solaris, I'd possibly go for a Stanton, either Sedona like mine or more likely a Sherpa as the closest thing to a Solaris.
With that budget and current fork, I'd be getting the Bfe. With more money I'd be after a nice (UK?) 853 frame. But I'd also be changing the fork to something shorter. Something like a Mason Raw with 120/130mm fork perhaps.
A longer travel hardtail with appropriate tyres will mask much of the 853 magic imo. The Bfe is a fine frame and would sit well in your quiver.
Maybe throw in a Nordest Britango as a wildcard choice too? I always fancied a go on one of those.
I agree with the point about modern steel hardtails not being especially compliant. I think aluminium hardtails have more compliance than they used to due to butted tubes and hydroforming but steel frames have become far more sturdy so are less compliant. There used to be a clear difference between frame materials but I don't think that's the case now.
With that budget and current fork, I'd be getting the Bfe. With more money I'd be after a nice (UK?) 853 frame. But I'd also be changing the fork to something shorter. Something like a Mason Raw with 120/130mm fork perhaps.
A longer travel hardtail with appropriate tyres will mask much of the 853 magic imo. The Bfe is a fine frame and would sit well in your quiver.
I think this thread will basically serve to confirm this as the choice more than anything else. And I think if I put the Pike at 140mm when its serviced, it should make the Bfe a good all-day, all-rounder than hopefully won't make me wish I had an analog FS. The Bikepacking.com Review is incredibly encouraging!
I wish the Forge was a little more conservative. I really like Bird as a brand and Ben especially has been very kind in the past. But their bikes are really for advanced riders, of which I am not...
Love my Stanton Sherpa and use it for exactly what you describe you want yours for.
No one has mentioned a P7 yet. That fits your (stretch) budget.
Love my Stanton Sherpa and use it for exactly what you describe you want yours for.
No one has mentioned a P7 yet. That fits your (stretch) budget.
The Gen V Sherpa does look great - and I'd love one in Lagoon! But alas, they're a bit spendy 😥
At the same price I'd pick the Cotic over the Orange I think - thanks for pointing it out though
I had a previous BFeMAX and now have a new Solaris instead (via a second hand SolarisMAX in the middle due to some chopping and changing) and although the new Solaris is a lovely thing (the colour for me sold it, but we all like different things!) it definitely does feel a bit lighter and more springy/comfy but I think a decent amount of that is the fact I dropped down to 120mm travel and fitted some lovely Teravail Ehline 29x2.5 tyres vs the DHF/DHRII I had previously.
I think the shorter travel but larger fast-rolling tyre/modern geo combination works really well for a comfy all-day bike that you're still going to be happy to ride down most things that would be in your comfort zone. I did go 'too XC' on another hardtail and it ended up only being used on rides I knew I wasn't going to come across anything techy so I often took another bike instead.
If the current BFe is similar to the previous BFeMAX which it seems to slot into that gap in the range, I'd happily have that with a lighter/faster build and save the £600 if I wasn't a tart and liked the clay colour on the Solaris too much to resist it. It even matches my fridge 🤣
Came to say Pace 629 and looking on their site I see it's a chunk cheaper than the 429. Doesn't have the 429's brake set up and can be set up 29er or mullet with the sliding dropouts.
Can't comment on many other steel HT's but my 853 RC627 was super comfy in a way aluminium just isn't. The finish was superb and the customer service top notch.
Was also going to suggest the P7 as a cheaper option. I had one of the 4130 frames and it was a hoot although not on the same level as the Pace.
Is a BFe (or Moxie?) a halfway between a Camino and a Fuel Ex? In my head you're heading toward something that'd end up being more extreme than the Fuel with a BFe? And if thats where you want to be going I'd also be looking at a Radical Chilli Dog. Awesome looking things...
If it were me, to put a 140ish fork on a hardtail frame for a bit of everything riding, I'd be err'ing toward a Pace - I think they look ace, the reviews are good and they're local to me. I know what you mean about the current Cotic "look"... would put me off buying one.
Is a BFe (or Moxie?) a halfway between a Camino and a Fuel Ex? In my head you're heading toward something that'd end up being more extreme than the Fuel with a BFe? And if thats where you want to be going I'd also be looking at a Radical Chilli Dog. Awesome looking things...
If it were me, to put a 140ish fork on a hardtail frame for a bit of everything riding, I'd be err'ing toward a Pace - I think they look ace, the reviews are good and they're local to me. I know what you mean about the current Cotic "look"... would put me off buying one.
Well, no its probably close towards the Fuel than the Camino; but its still a hardtail. I don't think its more extreme than a 150mm both ends FS bike. Ideally its not where I'm going, but as with most purchases this is a compromise.
I probably would put 140mm on the Bfe eventually. I quite like the Denim blue finish. I don't love the Pace finishes much tbh. Stanton definitely have the edge when it comes to available finishes without extra cost.
I had a previous BFeMAX and now have a new Solaris instead (via a second hand SolarisMAX in the middle due to some chopping and changing) and although the new Solaris is a lovely thing (the colour for me sold it, but we all like different things!) it definitely does feel a bit lighter and more springy/comfy but I think a decent amount of that is the fact I dropped down to 120mm travel and fitted some lovely Teravail Ehline 29x2.5 tyres vs the DHF/DHRII I had previously.
I think the shorter travel but larger fast-rolling tyre/modern geo combination works really well for a comfy all-day bike that you're still going to be happy to ride down most things that would be in your comfort zone. I did go 'too XC' on another hardtail and it ended up only being used on rides I knew I wasn't going to come across anything techy so I often took another bike instead.
If the current BFe is similar to the previous BFeMAX which it seems to slot into that gap in the range, I'd happily have that with a lighter/faster build and save the £600 if I wasn't a tart and liked the clay colour on the Solaris too much to resist it. It even matches my fridge 🤣
That is a super nice build. I did meet a guy at Ard Rock with a Bfe in the glow in the dark which looks like that colour in the day light. It was nicer than I expected; but probably still not quite for me.
I still don't have £1199 for a frame though!
Pace usually update the colour each year so there might be changes coming but you clearly want a Cotic so choose which one of those you like the colour of and go for it. I'd probably suggest the Solaris as if you get the BfE you'll wish you got the Solaris! 🤣
Bikepacking.com has the most detailed hardtail reviews I’ve seen and they review big forked bikes like this that aren’t normal bikepacking fare - worth a read!
This is a great recommendation - I'd never heard of this site before but went to check it out, and they have really good reviews of the BFe, the Bird and masses of others. Tbh it's making me think if I ever switch to modern geometry, I should consider a BFe...
Pace usually update the colour each year so there might be changes coming but you clearly want a Cotic so choose which one of those you like the colour of and go for it. I'd probably suggest the Solaris as if you get the BfE you'll wish you got the Solaris! 🤣
If money was no object I'd have a Solaris already! I keep hoping one will come up second hand in C3 size.
I'm really tempted by the Stanton Sherpa; they have the Gen 4 on sale at the moment, in Lagoon. Still £750 though. I wonder if I could twist their arm for another £100 off.
Head angle is a bit steeper than all these others though, at 67 degrees
Bikepacking.com has the most detailed hardtail reviews I’ve seen and they review big forked bikes like this that aren’t normal bikepacking fare - worth a read!
This is a great recommendation - I'd never heard of this site before but went to check it out, and they have really good reviews of the BFe, the Bird and masses of others. Tbh it's making me think if I ever switch to modern geometry, I should consider a BFe...
It was partly their review that made me want a Moxie...
https://bikepacking.com/bikes/pipedream-moxie-review/
“I really like Bird as a brand and Ben especially has been very kind in the past. But their bikes are really for advanced riders, of which I am not...”
I’m not sure if it’s advanced riders or more specific situations but I agree about the brand and people. I had a Zero AM and found it was great at steep stuff, great at groomed bermy pumpy stuff and really very good in most situations if I was riding absolutely flat out and focused. But it was really cantankerous on flatter rough natural trails if I was trying to have a chilled easy ride, which after tons of experimenting I put down to the very low BB and quite short rear end.
“I really like Bird as a brand and Ben especially has been very kind in the past. But their bikes are really for advanced riders, of which I am not...”
I’m not sure if it’s advanced riders or more specific situations but I agree about the brand and people. I had a Zero AM and found it was great at steep stuff, great at groomed bermy pumpy stuff and really very good in most situations if I was riding absolutely flat out and focused. But it was really cantankerous on flatter rough natural trails if I was trying to have a chilled easy ride, which after tons of experimenting I put down to the very low BB and quite short rear end.
This is exactly it. If you read Logan's review of the Forge on Bikepacking.com he says pretty much the same. You really need to ride them steep, fast, and be comfortable weighting the front end.
Love my Stanton Sherpa and use it for exactly what you describe you want yours for.
The stack on the Sherpa is really low in comparison to others - 604mm vs 646ish in other bikes of an equivalent size. Do you notice that much?
Stanton Sherpa or Switch9er seems to be a good bet for this type of riding - I've been keeping an eye out for a used Switch9er for a while but they never seem to come up which I guess is a good sign! Slightly cheaper would be the Nordest Britango which I have also been considering. Seems to have that nice middle-ground "not too modern" geometry that's probably best for an all-rounder.
Not steel but the Banshee Paradox looks like a lot of fun as well, and apparently they have good vertical compliance engineered into them. One of the nicest looking frames about as well imo.
I have a Sonder Signal ST.
It's brilliant. No other help sorry.
Pace usually update the colour each year so there might be changes coming but you clearly want a Cotic so choose which one of those you like the colour of and go for it. I'd probably suggest the Solaris as if you get the BfE you'll wish you got the Solaris! 🤣
If money was no object I'd have a Solaris already! I keep hoping one will come up second hand in C3 size.
I'm really tempted by the Stanton Sherpa; they have the Gen 4 on sale at the moment, in Lagoon. Still £750 though. I wonder if I could twist their arm for another £100 off.
Head angle is a bit steeper than all these others though, at 67 degrees
Can you not pinch a few bits off one of your other bikes to sell so you can get the bike you really want? Replace them in the future when funds allow?
I've had to decommission my Spur for a while as I've had to use the cassette, rear mech and saddle for another bike that I ride more. Having convinced my wife that an e-bike was necessary I don't think it's appropriate to drop another £300 on parts but it will get rebuilt as soon as I have the cash spare.
"Can you not pinch a few bits off one of your other bikes to sell so you can get the bike you really want? Replace them in the future when funds allow?"
I've only got two other bikes, both of which I ride regularly. Realistically this is a 3rd bike, the one that will get used the least probably, so i'm happy to keep it as cheap as possible and make a couple of compromises. Given I will have to spend money on tyres for it, and money to get the forks services/reduced, I can't really add more money to the frame.
EDIT: Also, the bike I really want is a Gloss Forest Solaris; which is no longer a default option. If I was dropping £1200 on a frame it'd need to be the right colour!
I've had a fair few hardtails over the years (variation of 26/27.5/29 wheels between Cotic Soul, Cotic BFE, Stanton Switchback, Stanton Slackline, BTR Ranger) and they've all been great frames that built into decent bikes. There was probably a marginal difference between complete build weights, but ultimately I felt tyre choice had most effect on how the bike felt. Currently on a 29" Ranger and it does everything from mental flat-out tail stuff and jumps, to meandering 30 miles along the river. I'm not sure there are any really bad frames (or choices) out there but I've always opted for UK where possible. Dawley look amazing, and aren't overly expensive compared to some off the shelf options, Radical have the occasional sale which brings them into the frame (no pun intended) but from the options everyone has listed above I'd probably go Cotic - only you can decide what one (geo/ cost) works for you, but given wheel size has settled it could well end up being a frame that lasts for years and years...
EDIT Just read the 'third bike' part, so understand the cost element. I'd look at a second hand steel frame, and of those listed above would work and I'm sure you'd enjoy it.
Moxie is a great frame. Climbs so good and feels more planted than the fs version when you drop into the rough stuff. Really miss mine around the Golfie :P. On a Stif Squatch now which is pretty close in capability. Few on ebay quite cheap.
Intrigued by the idea of the BFe as being all day/general trail friendly. I'd always assumed it was too much beef (same comment for the Moxie and 629).
Off to check out a few others on this thread as I'm potentially shopping in a similar space.
Not steel but the Banshee Paradox looks like a lot of fun as well, and apparently they have good vertical compliance engineered into them. One of the nicest looking frames about as well imo.
There was one of these built up in a shop I was in a couple of weeks ago . Looked absolutely gorgeous .
Love my Stanton Sherpa and use it for exactly what you describe you want yours for.
The stack on the Sherpa is really low in comparison to others - 604mm vs 646ish in other bikes of an equivalent size. Do you notice that much?
It feels different to my other bikes (Orange Stage 5 and a Stooge Dirtbomb) but by the end of the road its 'normal'. I've had it about 8 years now (think its a mk3?) and not changed any bits so Im pretty used to how it feels! The bars have about 25mm of rise and there is a bit on the stem too but I tend to use it for more XC type rides in the Peak (its bob on for the White Peak type trails) where maybe a lower stack is 'better'. It is also the shortest reach of all mine so you are more upright anyway.
I ride a pace 627, which I love. My only criticism would be the bb is a bit too low for me which makes pedal strikes fairly common, mostly climbing if the terrain is even slighlty uneven.
I'm not sure if the 629 gets over that issue.
If i were to buy a new frame, I'd 100% be going for a glow in the dark bfe.
I've tried to post this numerous times but the forums gone wonky each time. My current ebike antidote below.
Firstly - no brake issues. Secondly - always had excellent service from Pace (Sophie, really).
Owned loads of steel hardtails over the years. Chose this one because it actually feels like a Steel Hardtail.
I found during testing (sometimes limited, admittedly) that many of the other options were simply far too over built.
One iron based competitor in particular I found rode like it was made of scaffold poles.
ETA - never ridden one but did see Dawley at Ard Rock and his frames are beautiful, no idea on pricing but I'd be tempted to look there.
If I remember correctly, the Sherpa numbers on the Stanton site are either in sag or for 100mm fork which nobody runs. It's a bit confusing when then Sedona numbers are static and the Switch9er has both sagged and static figures.
It does still have a pretty low stack mind. I'd just run 50mm riser bars though.
If I remember correctly, the Sherpa numbers on the Stanton site are either in sag or for 100mm fork which nobody runs. It's a bit confusing when then Sedona numbers are static and the Switch9er has both sagged and static figures.
It does still have a pretty low stack mind. I'd just run 50mm riser bars though.
I spoke to Dan on their webchat, and yeah they are 120mm sagged or 100m static.
Its still very low - almost the same as my Camino. I am long in the leg and short(er) in the body, so as much as I'd love to go for a Sherpa I just don't think it's the call. And the next size up is far too long in reach.
I'm probably going for the Denim Bfe this afternoon...
I did it! What a long thread to basically confirm what I was going to do anyway 🤣
Please update this thread when you've ridden it. As much as I logically can't afford another bike and wouldn't replace my current Sedona and Moxie combo, I'm very Cotic curious and the bikepacking review did pique my interest. Great price on them too.
Yeah let us know how you get on with it! I've been interested in the new BFe for a while but I'm not really sure if it'd feel like too much bike for the kind of riding a hardtail is best at (ie not trying to be an enduro bike). I had one of the earlier 26" BFe's for a short while though and really liked it. Shame they don't do the gritstone grey colour any more, I don't really like the white or denim!
Pictures when you’ve built it please!
I'm signed up for a Glorious Gravel ride in the Lakes in September. If its built by then, I'll take it. That'll be a good measure of how well this sort of bike fairs over a large distance!
