[Closed] Warning!! old school moan about the Olympic Xc

I reckon as some have said that the clubs thing is the key. We just don't have a culture of MTB clubs that race and organise races. I think mountain biking in this country has a different ethos that's less about competing (I guess you can see that as negative if you think competing is important). In France the clubs seem to cater for VTT and road and the two are much more closely linked together and organise races in both.

So if you want you could have a moan at road clubs for not doing enough mountain biking. 😉

I think if you want XC to be more popular it needs to move closer to the riding that a lot of MTBers do. Hadleigh Farm is halfway there with the short lap and a lot of the course visible for spectators. The UCI XCE format is close-ish too but the crap courses and single 'lap' didn't quite hit the mark.

How about -

A short (5km) course built a bit like a UK trail centre 'black' or harder - similar to Hadleigh Farm but with more tech sections including proper DH/4X style jumps and drops. Needs to be tough enough to make FS and dropper posts a reasonable weight-to-speed gamble.

Proper multiple lines on the tech sections (of equal difficulty) to allow for 'fun' overtaking.

No tech or feeding areas - riders need to be totally self-sufficient for the duration of the race. A serious mechanical means your ride is over like in the real world (unless you can bodge it with gaffer and zip ties).

Single lap time-trial style qualification for 'grid' places before a more traditional 'endurance' style main race.

Sort of a mash-up of XC, BMX and 4X with the focus more equally on skill and fitness (current XC focuses on the latter?)?

slainte ❓ rob

What I mean is, that it's probably counter productive to be moaning on about how XC racing is the only form of 'proper' mountain biking, and if you're not into it it's because you're a lazy, pathetic follower of marketing hype.

The kind of 'you stupid kids with all your freeride rubbish, and you fat losers with your 6 inch travel bikes, what's wrong with you' attitude espoused by some in this thread isn't likely to endear people to XC racing.

XC racing is about riding your bike as hard as you can for 90 mins and having a laugh doing it. Anyone who thinks differently needs a reality check.

Brownbacks - good to hear and I have been tempted to enter one of your events as I've heard positive things. When I live a bit closer (moving quite near in the next 6 months hopefully) I'd probably be up for some marshalling too.

Designing a race *lap* where a mountain bike will be a faster option than a CX bike must be tricky

A short (5km) course built a bit like a UK trail centre 'black' or harder - similar to Hadleigh Farm but with more tech sections including proper DH/4X style jumps and drops. Needs to be tough enough to make FS and dropper posts a reasonable weight-to-speed gamble.

I think your format may be a bit "elite" for most however

as I've heard positive things.

I'd probably be up for some marshalling too.

Brownbacks - Member
I think your format may be a bit "elite" for most however

I think though, for most people who might want to race at grassroots level, a pretty much 'Red' graded course would be raceable?

slainte ❓ rob

colournoise - Member

How about -

A short (5km) course built a bit like a UK trail centre 'black' or harder - similar to Hadleigh Farm but with more tech sections including proper DH/4X style jumps and drops. Needs to be tough enough to make FS and dropper posts a reasonable weight-to-speed gamble.

Proper multiple lines on the tech sections (of equal difficulty) to allow for 'fun' overtaking.

No tech or feeding areas - riders need to be totally self-sufficient for the duration of the race. A serious mechanical means your ride is over like in the real world (unless you can bodge it with gaffer and zip ties).

Sort of a mash-up of XC, BMX and 4X with the focus more equally on skill and fitness (current XC focuses on the latter?)?

slainte rob

i've done a race a bit like that - it was ace!

although we swapped this

Single lap time-trial style qualification for 'grid' places before a more traditional 'endurance' style main race.

2k per lap, race for an hour, most laps wins.

(i confess that the lap was more 'easy red', than 'black or harder' - still great fun though)

A short (5km) course built a bit like a UK trail centre 'black' or harder - similar to Hadleigh Farm but with more tech sections including proper DH/4X style jumps and drops. Needs to be tough enough to make FS and dropper posts a reasonable weight-to-speed gamble.

How does that help new-comers to the sport? It might be ok for those who have been riding a while but? Also the point about built, who is going to do the building? and who is paying?

There is no point to dissing other forms of the sport, we should be looking to mutually support each other

Well said, thank God someone has finally come out and said that after 6 pages of different sub niches of a niche within a niche sport slagging each other off!

A short (5km) course built a bit like a UK trail centre 'black' or harder - similar to Hadleigh Farm but with more tech sections including proper DH/4X style jumps and drops. Needs to be tough enough to make FS and dropper posts a reasonable weight-to-speed gamble.

Bloody hell, where are you lot riding?! There's been this pervading sense on this thread and the Olympic MTB one that the Olympic course "isn't hard enough" and "looks boring" (I can guarantee you that it's plenty tough enough!).
But everyone on here seems to be riding in some kind of Escher drawing of constant descents with gap jumps, berms and 4ft drop offs! I'd love to know where it is cos even in my local riding of the Peak District, I have to do gravel tracks and uphills and flat grass trails from time to time!

Bottom line is, if something isn't technical, you're not riding it fast enough!

Seems people just want an enduro event then?? Its like saying the road race should have a cafe stop half way so we can all relate.

I've seen a lot of races and think XC is more exciting to watch than DH.

A few tough spots on the course, race is long enough for you to catch a couple of vantage points. The Dalby world cup was great for this. (i rarely see 6" dropper post bikes doing worry gill or medusas drop.)

I really don't think there is a need for XC to change just to please Weekend Trail centre warriors.

Seems people just want an enduro event then?? Its like saying the road race should have a cafe stop half way so we can all relate.

How is it like that? You think an enduro is 'easy'? Go win one then. More lame sniping, as is this:

Weekend Trail centre warriors.

and this for that matter:

i rarely see 6" dropper post bikes doing worry gill or medusas drop

If you don't think XC needs to change then that's fine, but do you have to be an arse about it?

I've seen a lot of races and think XC is more exciting to watch than DH.

I don't, sorry.

I really don't think there is a need for XC to change just to please Weekend Trail centre warriors.

maybe not but it needs to change to become accessible, friendly, and the natural starting point for people/ kids with an urge to compete off road on a bike

but do you have to be an arse about it?

Not being an arse about it, just my opinion sorry.

How is it like that? More lame sniping, as is this

Not lame sniping, just picking up on comments like:

A short (5km) course built a bit like a UK trail centre 'black' or harder - similar to Hadleigh Farm but with more tech sections including proper DH/4X style jumps and drops. Needs to be tough enough to make FS and dropper posts a reasonable weight-to-speed gamble.

Which IMHO is an Enduro event. Which would be great to have top level televised events like this, but don't think XC should be changed into this, just push enduro more.

Technical is great is your fresh but even the riders yesterday started to look a bit sketchy by the last lap. And they'd had plenty of time to practise it.

I regularly do the Gorricks. By the last lap I'll have been pushing my self hard for over an hour, I'm knacked and my arms are starting to shake, stuff which I would nt even have noticed on a ride with mates (ie with rest breaks) starts to look technical.

I would nt fancy any proper jumps and drops myself not like the riders were taking yesterday I'd just be too knackered to ride them.

Also although chicken lines were available it would be interesting to see if on the first lap whether people would actually have a choice or whether they've just be forced down which ever due to the mass of the crowd (certainly looked that way yesterday).

Also I tend not to bother with practise laps simply isnt time, ie drive to event 30 mins, prep 15 mins, 1:30 hour race, clean up 15 mins, drive home 30 mins. Thats plenty enough time to spend racing for me.

I've also done one downhill race. They was one proper jump in this race, which was fine, but I'd had all the previous day to practise it and I'd also managed a couple of practise runs in the morning.

A XC race just isnt like that riders will turn up and have no idea what the course is like.

maybe not but it needs to change to become accessible, friendly, and the natural starting point for people/ kids with an urge to compete off road on a bike

Yes I think that's down to event organisation more than the course. A couple of tough sections with Hard, moderate and easy runs, with a risk/reward set-up.

Which IMHO is an Enduro event

nah - 'cause you'd still be racing on the climbs.

Not being an arse about it, just my opinion sorry.

Whilst demeaning other people who have a diffent opinion to you. Again, hardly an attitude likely to endear people to your sport.

What scu98rkr said ^^.

Technical is fine but you start to get into situations where riders bottle it, bail, cause a crash or make mistakes cos they're tired. Also you're effectively cutting out the grass-roots element, the newcomers who may not yet have the Elite bike handling skills that everyone on STW so obviously has. I like technical, it's great but "technical" does not necessarily mean 4ft drop offs and insane descents.

I used to help organise the Beastway MTB Series in London and that used a 3 mile lap (different each week) and we used to get "technical" out of a flattish piece of essentially wasteland. Tight turns, blind corners, short steep ups and downs. All inclusive, anyone could ride it but just at varying speeds.

How is it like that? You think an enduro is 'easy'? Go win one then. More lame sniping, as is this:

No need to change your post grum after I have commented to argue your point.

I have never said enduro is easy nor have I said XC is easy. I'm quite happy say I fit more into the weekend warrior box (sorry if that touches a nerve) I don;t have the skills to race XC or Enduro, I just ride for riding's sake and have my opinions and like to argue them on the tinternet like so many others.

Your saying i'm demeaning but your the one in an arse with my opinion. What about all the others criticising XC??

its not that xc has to change its format - its incredibly popular in most of europe and parts ofhte USA just the way it is and has been - what needs to happen is to get more people involved. Every year I speak to people that want to do it, but - havent got a good enough bike, arent fit enough, theyll do it with a bit more training, cant afford it, oh really wish Id done it now.. etc etc..

The structure of races needs to change too - theres no progress unless you do the NPS and have to have a licence - year after year IM racing against (or behind) the same people who are up to 5 minutes a lap faster than the rest of the the filed, yet cant be moved up to elite as they dont have a licence. It is so disheartening, I even tried to move myself up to Elite (as Im actually quicker than some of those riders) but dont have any points to be able to do it. Until theres a set structure open to everyone we'll get no where...

Not too sure what I can really add here, it's all the usual (good) points being made, interspersed with all the usual (tired and rather pathetic) bitching!

XC is the easiest route into MTB racing, it's the most accessible for those who are new to it. Making it far more technical may be more exciting (to some) but will likely put more people off than it will encourage.

Enduro is good, and I'm sure will develop, but something that straddles DH and XC should be popular for most 'normal' riders for whom neither XC nor DH racing typifies what they do and what they think of as mountain biking (is that matters).

There may be things wrong politically with various areas of cycling and there may be levels of imbalance when it comes to funding but for what it's worth all I will say is that I've loved all aspects of cycling at the Olympic Games. The BMX was incredible, The Road and TT races were inspiring, the Track cycling was edge of the seat exciting and the XC was a joy to watch.

I'm a cyclist first and foremost, I have a cheap road bike when the moods takes me on the hard stuff, I have a trail bike for some explorative off road riding, a have a 4X bike for when the bar to bar racing mood takes hold and I have my downhill bike for when I want an immediate adrenaline fix. I love all aspects of cycling, they have all collectively enriched my life and I wouldn't be without any of them and I would have a very hard time choosing just one if it came to it.

I love watching competitive cycling and I love taking part myself and I love the freedom that all forms of cycling ultimately give me and I couldn't bring myself to argue about which is superior, which is more difficult, which is physically harder, technically harder because I'm just grateful I've got cycling in my life and nothing makes me feel better than riding a bike.

Sorry, that was a bit 'mushy' but I think it's worth taking a step back and remembering just how great all this bike malarky stuff is.

The structure of races needs to change too - theres no progress unless you do the NPS and have to have a licence

Totally agree with this !

Been doing the gorricks in the open category for about 4 years. I managed to get a bit quicker one year but still the best I managed was 6th on the first lap 13th by the end.

Admittedly when the field can be over 100 riders this is a massive improvement from finishing 50th.

But what is the point of Master/Super Master/Veteran/Super Veteran ?

There should be no age categories above 16ish just ability categories.

Ie Begineer,Fun,Open,Advanced,Sport,Expert,Elite and not merge Expert/Elite into one race.

There would still be time for this as you would cut out Master/Super Master/Veteran/Super Veteran/Grand Veteran and Senior Veteran.

This way more people would actually come close to winning races and make them compete against similar abilities, might help keep them interested.

Also the Gorrick do occasionally get popular ie new season and the sun is out. But entering a race with 125 people isnt much fun if you get trapped behind ALOT of slower riders.

More ability category might help with that. No one wants to enter Fun cos you just get 2 laps ie so could be 40 mins cycling.

So every one pours into open to get a decent race but then people who have been racing for 5,6,7 years will also be in this category.

So thats another change I'd make. Except for the very "Beginners race" make sure everyone get at least 1 hours racing time.

For the gorricks I'd suggest this and more info on the website

Beginner 2 laps - Ie been riding bike offroad less than a year
Fun 3 laps - Unfit Weekend Warrior
Open 3 laps - Fit Weekend Warrior
Advanced 3 laps - Been racing for at least a year or just generally pretty fit
Sport 4 laps - Previously been near the top of the Advanced category
Expert 4 laps - Previously been near the top of the Sport category
Elite 5 laps - Similar to now

Obviously there would be the worry their would nt be enough riders for all the categories but if you moved all the veteran/masters it would be fine. And beginners doesnt really need to be a proper race.

This way more people would actually come close to winning races and make them compete against similar abilities, might help keep them interested.

No it wouldn't, getting rid of categories would mean fewer folk won, that's very basic maths.

To be honest its also what put me off triathlons, unless you were really really good you didn't win. There's no sense of achievement in finishing (an Olympic distance) one for me, that's a given, I want to compete! I know some do age groups, but it's essentially a secondary criteria.

However... masters is daft. There's no physical degradation in performance at 30, it's now full of former elites who've dropped down for an easier race (why not!?). The BC rule book says the top 3 masters get promoted to expert - that would be a significant demotion!

Admittedly many have gone back to Elite, but now you get folk yo-yoing between the 2, which is daft.

Super Master was just a Gorrick thing to give the fast masters a longer race, IIRC one other series has cottoned on as well.

Trouble is... if you get rid of masters and merge them you'll annoy a lot of people:

- the winning masters, who are forced into elite where they'll never win against full time athletes on a national stage
- the experts who are inundated by faster masters who don't want to go into elite
- the elites who are demoted because they're suddenly outside the top 50, the goalposts having been somewhat moved by the influx of masters

etc etc

The US have gone to a road style 5/4/3/2/1/E cat system, and we were meant to be doing the same, but it's all gone very quiet, so I'm not sure.

I don't think the categories are a huge issue though.

I think there's a bit of an issue with popularity of regional races. Southern XCs are a good step between Gorricks to NPS (for example). Courses are tougher, the standard is higher. The problem is that they have fewer competitors than either, and I don't know why frankly, but that 'transitional' stage from local to national does exist.

Beginner 2 laps - Ie been riding bike offroad less than a year
Fun 3 laps - Unfit Weekend Warrior
Open 3 laps - Fit Weekend Warrior
Advanced 3 laps - Been racing for at least a year or just generally pretty fit
Sport 4 laps - Previously been near the top of the Advanced category
Expert 4 laps - Previously been near the top of the Sport category
Elite 5 laps - Similar to now

WTF is advanced? That's unnecessary. And why have Sport and Expert as the same distance?

Gorrick have always promoted Beginner as being for folk doing their very first race and wanting to try it out in a non-threatening mass-start environment. For some people, that's exactly what they want. If they don't, there are plenty of other options.

The US have gone to a road style 5/4/3/2/1/E cat system, and we were meant to be doing the same, but it's all gone very quiet, so I'm not sure.

is a great idea..

The US have gone to a road style 5/4/3/2/1/E cat system, and we were meant to be doing the same, but it's all gone very quiet, so I'm not sure.

Genuine question to the XC racers out there:
Do you want that? Or do you want categories defined by age AND ability (as now)? Which is simpler (for racers and organisers)? Which is more open to newcomers?

One of the problems with early XC racing in the NW of England was the lack of sensible categories. You had fun classes with maybe 100 riders, then sport with loads more, then an expert/elite class with about 15 riders in.

Plus people would deliberately not enter the harder categories so it was easy to win, we had words with one or two riders who were basically national level but who rode in the sport class for the prizes.

I always enetered the expert/elite class and had a much better race as a result, despite getting hammered.

the road licence system would work great, as you wouldnt have the same people winning the same races year in year out, theyd be 'nowhere to hide' unless you stopped racing or stopped accumulating points

the categories as they are now, and as shown above, are open to abuse and different series have their own different categories...

The trouble is in the first year of a new licence everyone would have a 'starter' licence (cat 4?!)

No it wouldn't, getting rid of categories would mean fewer folk won, that's very basic maths

njee you normally have some very good stuff to say especially about racing, but you seem to have totally missed my point.

The point would not to have less categories but get rid of Master/Veteran and replace them with more ability categories, do you not get what Im saying ?

As you say Masters/Veteran are almost as fast as sport/Expert.

Im near the top of the open category but not quite. I dont think i'll ever win a race except maybe Fun which is a bit pointless at 2 laps long.

The point of advanced etc would be to make more full length races ie 3+ laps but with differing abilities.

you say american is 5/4/3/2/1/E

Does this help ?

Begineer(not a full race) then

5 = Fun
4 = Open
3 = Advanced
2 = Sport
1 = Expert
E = Elite

Not far off what I'm saying

So, the general consensus is that the XC racing scene in the UK is dead, or near death. Meanwhile DH racing is in good health and Enduro is exploding (not just in the UK but worldwide).

Whilst XC might be bigger and more popular in other countries the same is true of all cycling disciplines, at the end of the day marketing and media is rapidly moving away from the sport.

But according to all the ultra fit, ultra talented elite level world class XC athletes of STW, anyone who doesn't understand or appreciate XC racing is a fat i.t consultant knacker on a 6" bike and it's peoples perceptions that need to change, not XC. Oh no, if you don't get it there is something wrong with you.

Whatever could the matter be.

I don't think the categories are a huge issue though.

Yes but it would be nice to win a race or at least compete to win one once in a while.

At my best I come about 15th in the open category.

People are keen to enter open as it has 3 laps which is a good compromise on laps.

There are two 3 laps races open and Masters/Veteran.

Why not have two 3 lap races open and open advanced and then mix the 2 groups.

That way I and others might have a chance of winning open while the best riders from both groups battle it out in open advanced.

Now good riders under 30 who want to do 3 laps do open and the Masters/Veteran are pretty much all good riders (who really should be joined by the best from the open category).

The US have gone to a road style 5/4/3/2/1/E cat system, and we were meant to be doing the same, but it's all gone very quiet, so I'm not sure.
Genuine question to the XC racers out there:
Do you want that? Or do you want categories defined by age AND ability (as now)? Which is simpler (for racers and organisers)? Which is more open to newcomers?

Do you want that?
Yes

Which is more open to newcomers?
I would guess the american one as your more likely to be with riders of your ability. You might mistakenly enter Veteran/Masters thining the racing will be a bit slower and be totally blown away these races are pretty dam quick. Quicker than open anyhow.

I'm quite happy say I fit more into the weekend warrior box (sorry if that touches a nerve)

Yes I think that's down to event organisation more than the course. A couple of tough sections with Hard, moderate and easy runs, with a risk/reward set-up.

its not that xc has to change its format - its incredibly popular in most of europe and parts ofhte USA just the way it is and has been - what needs to happen is to get more people involved. Every year I speak to people that want to do it, but - havent got a good enough bike, arent fit enough, theyll do it with a bit more training, cant afford it, oh really wish Id done it now.. etc etc..

that's all about getting accessible local series of the ground, skills coaching as part of the package and making sure all feel welcome on a clunker or on bling

The structure of races needs to change too - theres no progress unless you do the NPS and have to have a licence - year after year IM racing against (or behind) the same people who are up to 5 minutes a lap faster than the rest of the the filed, yet cant be moved up to elite as they dont have a licence. It is so disheartening, I even tried to move myself up to Elite (as Im actually quicker than some of those riders) but dont have any points to be able to do it. Until theres a set structure open to everyone we'll get no where...

a road category system has been bouncing around. My understanding is that it has been binned/ room 101 due to the commercial race organisers not wanting to upset the cosy masters/ vets racing setup

my view is that age categories <40 are a cancer that are retarding the sport, once at 40 the choice should still their to race by ability

the advantage for organisers is then can start grading courses to match the riders which makes it easier for novices to get going

The trouble is in the first year of a new licence everyone would have a 'starter' licence (cat 4?!)

I think there's a bit of an issue with popularity of regional races. Southern XCs are a good step between Gorricks to NPS (for example). Courses are tougher, the standard is higher. The problem is that they have fewer competitors than either, and I don't know why frankly, but that 'transitional' stage from local to national does exist.

A reason I dont do Southern XC - Seeing as Im yet to come right near the top of the field in a Gorrick open there seems little point in me moving on to a "harder" event, as I will just finish further down the field.

Best I should save my money and train a bit harder. If there were more categories and I actually felt like after a few years training I was getting close to winning a race I would be more involved.

Assuming Fun doesnt count as at 2 laps its a bit pointless.

The public Profile of XC in this country certainly has suffered, I agree about the above, if the UK want to win an Olympic XC gold there's no point trying to change the format locally/nationally to encourage entry, as anyone competing in these races won't recognise the sport they are faced with once they get to international level competition.

Unfortunately I don't think the fact that its a stand-alone event in the Olympics helps it either, the likes of Hoy and Pendlton were able to win multiple medals in multiple events due to the bredth of track cycling events on offer so as a proposition for BC funding they were very good [I]'Value for money'[/I]...

That opportunity isn't really there for XC as a single race olympic event, while the WC/world Champs between Olympic cycles (Where alot of the real work in developing a rider for international competition would need to be done) isn't visible or promoted on anything like the same level, lack of exposure = lack of interest = lack of funding to even get riders there in the first place, Even within cycling/cycling media itself TBH...

I think the point is if you can't rely on BC to support, grow and promote the sport when its profile is so low, then sadly you need to develop a commercial proposition for funding, but I'm not sure how that really works for XC in the UK.

The current bias in MTBing (in the UK) is either towards non-competitive enjoyable riding at trail centres (nothing wrong with that really, its people out and about having fun on bikes is a good thing) or the more 'exciting' disiplines (DH/Gravity enduro) which again are a bit niche and removed from XC now, these hold some commercial appeal as they have a younger more "brand aware" audience, they are the accessible and/or exciting offshoots of MTBing.

Road and track now looks Slick and Big and has plenty of public exposure it's the sort of thing people would love to be part of. DH/Gravity Enduro sells danger, bravery and excitement I just don't see how XC gets itself into that mix, there's nothing wrong with the sport it's just it's competing with other shinier baubles for public attention and its going to loose at that game.

I speak as part of the problem really, when I grew up and got into it MTB basically was XC (Late 80s early 90s), there wasn't really any major sub-division of the sport that I can remember, people raced XC and not much else...
And when DH first came along, it was initially a sort of bolt on; XC racers took the same bike down a basic DH course (in the same kit mostly) and it was a bit of a fun side show.
Like many I got more into DH and non-racey trail faffing and less into XC and as it pulled itself away from XC it took plenty of riders interest with it...

So now the focus of most new entrants to the sport and many of those who've been at it a while is [I]"The Fun Bits" [/I] (Downhill and trails) and the uphill slogs required for XC racing fitness just doesn't appeal in the same way, even when you try to frame the dual rewards of better fitness and access to more fun bits once you've pedaled up...

The general culture and concept of what MTBing actually is has changed over the last 15-20 years and now doesn't really match the needs of creating a Competitive British XC team... How do you address that?

categories, how do you make sure that riders take licences? I don't know many roadies who pot hunt in the same way mtbers seem to have been guilty of, being a 1st cat is the target rather than winning a camelbak.

As for where we are and where we go? There does need to be more in the way of races particularly at grassroots level. I know it goes against the STW make it harder thing, but look at Cross. Farms, Parks, etc near where people live, a bit of woodland, some rocks. The course doesn't need to be that hard. Riding will do that. A flat course can be harder than a hilly course if done right. As long as riders feel that they can achieve something i believe you are half way there.

njee you normally have some very good stuff to say especially about racing, but you seem to have totally missed my point.

The point would not to have less categories but get rid of Master/Veteran and replace them with more ability categories, do you not get what Im saying ?

Apologies if I misunderstood. I think your issue is largely one of semantics, but if you get rid of master/super master/vet/grand vet/super vet and replace with 1 new ability category (advanced - as per your suggestion) then surely you [b]are [/b]reducing the numbers?

I think you'll get more grand vets (for example) being annoyed that they have to race against 20-somethings in Sport, rather than having a race of their own. I could be wrong on that though, suspect opinion will be divided.

Yes but it would be nice to win a race or at least compete to win one once in a while.

At my best I come about 15th in the open category.

People are keen to enter open as it has 3 laps which is a good compromise on laps.

There are two 3 laps races open and Masters/Veteran.

Why not have two 3 lap races open and open advanced and then mix the 2 groups.

But why would you? At the moment it's fairly clear cut: if you want to race for 3 laps you do open. If you are over 40 you do vets. Under a revised system if you want to do 3 laps (or are we having compulsory licenses to avoid pot-hunting?) you have a choice of 2, with a variation in name alone, how do you know where you fit? It's like Sport and Open at Mayhem, bar a subtle difference re licenses which affects the top 5%, they are the same.

Open always used to be called Novice. People didn't like the 'beginner' connotations so they changed it to Open. Rob Lee turned up at a Gorrick (whilst still doing more endurance racing) and raced Master/Open/Expert all on the same day. He won Open and people complained because he was clearly 'too good' for Open. People are fickle - they don't want to be classed as beginners, but don't like being beaten by folk they see should be racing in other categories.

The course doesn't need to be that hard. Riding will do that. A flat course can be harder than a hilly course if done right. As long as riders feel that they can achieve something i believe you are half way there.

That's what events like Beastway and the (newer) Manchester Midweek Madness are about. Entry level, grass roots, FUN, social events on what are basically inner city parks. The course does not have to be some rock infested tech fest, [b]anything[/b] can be a racecourse and can be hard if you do it right.

As mentioned above, there's been this attitude shift in MTBing in the past 15 years where you HAVE to now go and ride a trail centre on your 6" travel full sus because nothing else is gnarl core enough. XC has been the unfortunate victim of that.

categories, how do you make sure that riders take licences? I don't know many roadies who pot hunt in the same way mtbers seem to have been guilty of, being a 1st cat is the target rather than winning a camelbak.

You can't. Plenty of people 'try' mountain bike racing, or even do 1-2 a year for a bit of a laugh. Few do that with road racing. They commit to it (helped by the fact there are races every night of the week in most counties) and thus a license is a reasonable expense. Unless you want to travel a long way the same isn't true for mountain biking, you may have 10 races a year within an hours drive, if you're lucky. I reckon 90% of people at a Gorrick (and at c700 riders per event they get more than most) would not be remotely interested in a compulsory license.

mrmo

I know it goes against the STW make it harder thing, but look at Cross. Farms, Parks, etc near where people live, a bit of woodland, some rocks. The course doesn't need to be that hard. Riding will do that. A flat course can be harder than a hilly course if done right. As long as riders feel that they can achieve something i believe you are half way there.

Believe it or not, some people, even some XC racers enjoy a technical challenge and race so they can excel on tougher parts, not necessarily win . If races had a better balance of climbing/flat/technical sections people might be more interested. I'd do more XC races if I thought there would be a decent amount of fun parts to balance out the hard work. The last thing it needs, imo is more tracks where a cyclocross bike would be faster. Not many riders (xc racers) I know want to pay/drive/race an event where it's already a foregone conclusion that the guy who spends most time on his roadbike will win.

As mentioned above, there's been this attitude shift in MTBing in the past 15 years where you HAVE to now go and ride a trail centre on your 6" travel full sus because nothing else is gnarl core enough. XC has been the unfortunate victim of that.

People doing what people want to do and having fun. Shame on them.