TrainerRoad - STW approved sessions

apparently I should now reset my FTP from 290 to 403

I realise I have nightmares about my weekly threshold intervals.

6 x7 minutes at threshold. I go into it rested, nutrition sorted, use a gel mid session, drink torq and I give it absolutely everything. It's high quality and I dread it. 3 days later I do 3x20m Z4 - same deal.

Sometimes I wish I could just do more but lower quality (ie less painful) sessions.

3x20m Z4

6 x7 minutes at threshold

I'm wondering what's the deal with the gels etc? All mine are done with water and squash in a bottle no more. Perhaps I've missed a trick, but my sustainable weight would be so I'd i stuffed that lot down

I've never bother with a gel when doing TR stuff before, just stick to water. Probably foolish, should have something when over an hour to help maintain form and focus if nothing else.

Week 6 of sweet spot base mid vol 1 here. I've been doing all sessions outside on the cx bike which has been nice - even did an entirely on road session which I actually liked, started thinking I want a road bike 😳 Spent breakfast looking at a Kinesis Aithen Disc 😀

apparently I should now reset my FTP from 290 to 403

😯 x 2

Assume MSP means 303?

I realise I have nightmares about my weekly threshold intervals.
6 x7 minutes at threshold

Only sessions I do above z2 are 4x8 at > 105% FTP here, absolutely dread them. I've not actually had nightmares about them yet but I suspect it's only a matter of time.

I'm wondering what's the deal with the gels etc?

For emergency use only IMO.

Spent breakfast looking at a Kinesis Aithen Disc

Nice 🙂 Thinking about a new frame for the training bike with discs too, nothing quite tickles my fancy for a sensible price though.

Only sessions I do above z2 are 4x8 at > 105% FTP here,

How very lazy 😉 with the exception of 4x15 95% tomorrow on the new TT bike all my intervals have been in the region of 120-165%.

Normality doesn't mean less painful! The 6x7minutes = 42minutes at my 20minute threshold ie it's supposed to be shorter higher intensity.

3x20minutes may be normality but 20minutes at 90% of threshold isn't exactly a walk in the park either.

Gels - I am empty after 20-30minutes, I don't care if it's only mental but it's harder to throw in the towel after I've necked a gel and I feel stronger after it. Also I want to get my stomach used to eating at threshold. I also find a carbohydrate heavy day is a help. I'm not sure I race harder than this 6x7minute session

How very lazy

🙂

6x7minutes = 42minutes at my 20minute threshold

This is a lot harder than it sounds, especially if you have quite a flat power profile.

Gels - I am empty after 20-30minutes, I don't care if it's only mental but it's harder to throw in the towel after I've necked a gel and I feel stronger after it.

This was me. I've cut back on carbs hugely and try and do as much fasted riding as I can now. It's really helped. TBH I think a lot of it is psychological.

What's it helped? Always willing to try something new but I think there's a physiological justification for replenishing carbohydrate at this intensity.

I'm wondering what's the deal with the gels etc? All mine are done with water and squash in a bottle no more. Perhaps I've missed a trick, but my sustainable weight would be so I'd i stuffed that lot down

I do all my SS/LT sessions fully fuelled too. Otherwise you begin to tire around 2/3rds of the way through and A) the quality of the session drops, and B) you dig yourself a bigger hole from a recovery standpoint.

Edit:

Normality doesn't mean less painful! The 6x7minutes = 42minutes at my 20minute threshold ie it's supposed to be shorter higher intensity.

3x20minutes may be normality but 20minutes at 90% of threshold isn't exactly a walk in the park either.

I certainly wasn't trying to say 3x20 @ SS was a walk in the park, cos its really not. Takes quite a psychological effort to hang in there for the last 10 mins.

The 6x7 makes much more sense at 20min power rather than FTP. Makes it a very similar session to MrBlobby's 4x8 which I can confirm is brutal

What's it helped? Always willing to try something new but I think there's a physiological justification for replenishing carbohydrate at this intensity.

I think the theory is that your usually burning a mix of carb and fat. And training in a low carb state encourages use of a greater proportion of fat (of which you have a lot more in reserve) for a given effort. I think the result is you burn less carbs for a given effort and can therefore make more of the limited reserves you've got. I read a few papers on it a while back that had more detail that seemed to make sense to me. And what I've done so far seems to have helped (20 min power is up, finish long rides feeling like I've still got lots in the tank.)

I have however spent some long rides tormented by an emergency cereal bar in my jersey pocket 🙂

I do all my SS/LT sessions fully fuelled too.

Much the same here, though that mostly just involves eating normally and not being fasted, not knocking back gels.

Assume MSP means 303?

No I mean 403, these are the figures from last night

1 Minute 448 09/02/2017
2 Minute 444 09/02/2017
5 Minute 439 09/02/2017
10 Minute 432 09/02/2017
15 Minute 429 09/02/2017
20 Minute 426 09/02/2017
30 Minute 346 09/02/2017

So TR estimated my new ftp from the 20 min block to be 403, but I honestly don't think I could actually hold 403 for an hour. I have never battered myself on the trainer before like I did for that 20 mins, and I think I am better suited to a 20 min interval than I am a 60 min interval, it was also quite a mental effort I was really just hanging onto it for the last 10 mins of the interval fighting with all my will not to let it go and just stop.

You also have to remember I weigh in at 125kg, I am more of an err... power athlete than an average cyclist.

I also wish I had a proper power meter and not just taking readings from the trainer, it is supposed to be pretty accurate, but I have to say it does seem somewhat out of left field. I will have to see how that translates to actually doing training sessions, the problem may be that I can do the hard efforts, but the recoveries are too high to actually recover between intervals. I suspect I will be lowering it.

What is your weight? If you are not a biffer you should be thinking about signing up as a pro soon...

Yeah, I was just editing that in to add some context.

MSP, I'm betting everyone wants to be on your wheel on the flat 🙂

Another thing I did a couple of months ago was to get some pedal extenders. Before that I could feel all the effort was being done by the "teardrop" muscle just above the knee, now it has really shifted into the core of the thigh muscle, I think it has really helped me progress quite quickly.

MSP, I'm betting everyone wants to be on your wheel on the flat

Oh yeah, the bastards never take a turn then, never repay the favour going up hill though.

The 6x7 makes much more sense at 20min power rather than FTP. Makes it a very similar session to MrBlobby's 4x8 which I can confirm is brutal

Coming off a load of winter z2 and tempo it's taken a while to get my head around the effort. I'm now at the end of my 5th week of doing these and this is the first week I've managed all 4 at the target power (both sessions too!) Rather pleased about that 😀 So now it's time to reduce the recovery interval 😕

I also wish I had a proper power meter and not just taking readings from the trainer, it is supposed to be pretty accurate, but I have to say it does seem somewhat out of left field. I will have to see how that translates to actually doing training sessions, the problem may be that I can do the hard efforts, but the recoveries are too high to actually recover between intervals. I suspect I will be lowering it.

Didn't find it a problem at all just training to get some legs under me, but if you want to get more serious then a power meter will eventually be needed. Saying that, some turbo designs are way more stable, so will give you pretty accurate virtual power.

Large numbers there MSP

He's 3.2w/kg. Hardly huge, thats less than me and I'm the least powerful rider I know - just being factual not willy waving...

Interesting what MSP said about his legs though. Before this round of winter training Njee pointed out to me my saddle looked low. I readjusted using the 109% rule with the intent to "fettle" and never did. At then end of my turbo sessions my pains come from within and at the centre/core of my quads as MSP describes, so is that a good thing? My improvement this season has been climbing & sustainable power so is that the impact?

think turbo drift is largely responsible

At MSP levels of power I'd also not be surprised if there was quite a lot of wheel slip on the roller. Power meter if serious is the answer.

He's 3.2w/kg. Hardly huge, thats less than me and I'm the least powerful rider I know - just being factual not willy waving...

Though it's easier to lose kg than it is to gain watts.

So now it's time to reduce the recovery interval

First intervals block is hideous. Personally I would up the power and keep the interval.

My winter never had the volume of Z2 from previous years but kept some intensity. As a result I'm about 15-20W up on FTP but my foundations may be a bit shaky. Plan is to do a couple of weeks Z2 training camp closer to A event mid May.

Managed 91% of my 20minute FTP over my 3x 20mins Z4. 700TSS week.

Nice work adsh. What's the A event? Something marathonish?

Re recovery, I had to push this up to 5 mins, which is too long really. I'll try 4 mins now then I might try upping the power, but for me I think reducing the recovery further is the way to go.

Kryton57 - Member

Large numbers there MSP

He's 3.2w/kg. Hardly huge, thats less than me and I'm the least powerful rider I know - just being factual not willy waving...

Please post more, at 3.56w/kg myself i could use the advice 😀

In the UK absolute power is the name of the game in most situations. I'd love another 100W even if it meant a small reduction in W/Kg.
Although even with another 100W i'd still get crushed by MSP on the flat 😥

Was the Gorrick 100 but as that's not on I hope it will be Erlestoke 100 - 6hr. If that doesn't happen I'm stuffed and will try to get some miles in for a quick SDW or something.

Coming towards the end of sweet spot base 1, been riding the recovery week outside just to HR. Can't remember how my legs should feel at the end of it but definately still feeling training in my legs. Don't know if I should back off even more tomorrow?

A general recovery/training question. I don’t often get sore legs, tired yes, but not sore. This week my legs have been feeling very hot/burning at rest and a bit achey but not tired. What’s the difference/cause? Its more the heat I’m curious about. My training hasn’t changed, power and HR data still the same/good/hitting the right watts, sleep and diet the same/normal, I’m in my second week of this block, the hot feeling started on Tuesday after a split session (9 vo2 efforts in the morning, weights in the evening) and the heat is much worse after a 2.5 hour tempo ride yesterday. Shouldn’t be overtrained as I’m coached (coach on holiday hence asking on here) and follow a 3 week on 1 week off schedule with structure.

Hydration?

Are you coming off base and doing more intervals? That sounds like quite a training load in 2days.

No, been doing intervals since November, this is a fairly typical week so it shouldn’t be any different, slightly higher TSS yesterday because I was outside instead of turbo but then the heat started on Tuesday and TSS/IF was same as usual. Aside from the heat, I feel great, and I’m usually very good at knowing when I’ve had enough or need an unplanned rest day having been coached for nearly 6 years. Dehydration might be it though.

This may be a general question rather than a TR question, but is anyone else struggling to lose weight?

I'm about to go into my first race 2lbs over race weight. I'm not panicking as this year my racing starts a month earlier. I'm thinking/hoping this is becuase of reduced volume due to winter weather despite the intensity as I've now come to the end of SS base / build x 2 / speciality intervals since September.

With calories in I've been a bet less diligent than I should but on a weekly basis my net average is hitting my 2000 per day goal.

Lack of volume or just the physiological winter adaptation...?

I haven't lost any this week, and I've had a very strong week, good sessions, and disciplined eating. don't stress about 2 lbs. it will go in good time.

got to say I am loving TrainerRoad this year. using it with a Wattbike at the work gym, and the improvement from a turbo is incredible. finished all the sessions I've done this year, which for me is a big improvement. looking forward to racing this year now, after taking a year out last year.

It's still winter!

For me there's many more things than weight that make more difference. 2lb could be increased muscle. When I start to do hill repeats I get motivation to lose weight but now I want to be fed to do hard intervals and gain power

DGOAB - burning legs sounds a bit scary, and possibly inflammatory. Not a doctor, physiologist or coach but if I was getting the same sensations I'd be cautious with it and either stick to low-zone training or even take a couple of days complete rest.

Kryton - I always have the same thing as you this time of year. If you're less than 1kg over your target weight and it's still winter then you're probably on the right track.

Well I decided to stick to the plan last night despite the burning legs. No idea what is going on, but hit my 5min threshold-vo2 efforts spot on, no lactic acid build up or pain during the efforts and hardly breathing hard at all. Post session legs hurt to foam roller (don't normally) but felt better after riding. Very odd but not complaining.

Kryton, yes I'm struggling with dropping a little too. Having ditched 1-2 turbo session mid week in favour of riding outside that is beginning to help.

@Kryton,
For me, my weight never shifts much more than a couple of kg anyway, but never actually comes down to 'race weight' until I start to get in some longer interval sessions (3x20@SS, 2x20@LT) combined with the weekend rides getting a little longer.
Of course that may or may not be training related, could be seasonal as those sessions always start around the same time of year.

I wouldn't worry about it too much, as from what you've posted your training and numbers have gone quite well over the winter.

My ftp didn't go up, my hill climbing and vo2max medals in TR improved, and this happened:

View this post on Instagram

Eye bleach alert...

Gonna have to follow you to see that as your accounts private.

Back on the bike after 10 days running including a cross country race whilst I was in the UK.

Felt pretty good but I'm finding the 90 minute sessions damn hard to do at 100%.

Its a pic of my quads, which seems to have developed extremely well. Ill spare you...

Re weight, im inclined to agree then. I think once the longer 3000cal weekend rides kick in ill be able to shift the last bit.

As the default training whinge thread... annoyingly poor week here, not enough volume even for an easier week. Kids being home for half term and them and mrs B being full of cold, and rather a busy spell at work, have all disrupted my routine. Even had to cut short last nights ride with a light charging fail that had me riding the last half hour home to the light of my iPhone torch!

Back on it with a vengance next week 😈

Oh and Kryton, get the razor out and sort out those legs!

The 6x7 makes much more sense at 20min power rather than FTP. Makes it a very similar session to MrBlobby's 4x8 which I can confirm is brutal

Taken me a while to get my head around the 4x8 sessions. Think hard sessions are a real mental game and you can often be beaten by them before you even start. Got the recovery down to 4 minutes and I was almost tempted to have a crack at a 5th interval today!

Got this week and next of 4x8, then it'll be longer outdoor race pace efforts.

Got Lamarck on the schedule tomorrow, 4 * 10 at bang on FTP with 2 minutes recovery. IF of 0.92, nice.

Agree that mentally I find these sessions way harder than the VO2 max ones. Ooh well just knuckle down and get it done.

Starting to firm up the races now for April and May which is helping with the motivation, as is the ever increasing amount of daylight over here.

What you up to now Chef, more XC?

Yup, back on the bike after a short flirtation with running last year.

Couple of marathon distance events early on and if they go to plan then i'll commit to the national series with an aim of placing top 10 in vets 40.