[Closed] Tightening headset after every ride !?

Do you have enough clearance between the top of the stem (or any spacers on top of the stem) and the top of the steerer? There should be about 3mm clearance as the underside of the top cap fits into the steerer slightly. If you don't have clearance then the top cap bottoms out on the steerer.

Also check your star nut (or expander plug) is secure.

Oh and sorry to check the obvious but you are tightening the top cap first then the stem bolts and fully undoing them when adjusting and your headset cups are fully in the frame?

12 nm, surely your steering would be pretty stiff.
I tighten my top cap to 2nm lowest setting on my torque driver,
after reading some wear that 1.6nm was about right for most headsets.

Are you sure there is not a slight knock in your fork legs.

Is the head tube quite short? I had the same issue with a set of white brothers and a canyon with 100mm (ish) long head tube - the wedge part of the headset set just on top of the tapered part of the steerer.

Slipping star nut?

At the risk of stating the bleedin' obvious, threadloc?

Do you have enough clearance between the top of the stem (or any spacers on top of the stem) and the top of the steerer?

This is a good suggestion, a mate had the same issue troubling him for weeks after a new stem, he came to mine and I gave him a 5mm spacer, cured instantly. (Well after it was fitted!)

Also de-grease the steerer tube and stem with some IPA or similar. Grease from the headset can cause it to slip.

You are tightening the top cap first.

The headset bolt is purely for preloading the headset bearings (bikes can run without a headset cap) and I normally set it so that there isnt any play in the steerer. As eddie11 suggests check the star nut then I would perhaps tighten the stem steerer bolts up a bit more. You could also try 'roughin up' the clamp are on the steerer tube to give the stem something to grip onto to.

Star nut should not matter once the stem is tightened it is only there to load the bearings .

Star nut should not matter once the stem is tightened it is only there to load the bearings

That's a good point. Was just looking for anything that could go wrong.

It'll be ya star nut like has been suggested,nothing else it can be if it's comin loose ,I take it the pinch bolts on the stem are nipped ??.

Remove the top cap, if there is a gap of roughly 3mm between top of steerer and top of the stem, it is not the problem .
If the star nut is set below the top of the steerer (about 10mm), the star nut is not the problem.

If above is correct I can't see you getting 12 nm of preload with out jamming up the steering some what, unless you are doing up the stem before the top cap.

But if the steerer and star nut are set correctly and it is fine after initial tightening but loose by the end of the ride then the stem may be slipping.

Steerer coming loose from the crown bonding?

I've known this to happen on older Marzocchis but you never know.

forks crown race not seated properly, working loose?

Evil invisible pixies undoing the bolts while you are riding. Wrap something around the headset to discourage them - liquorice is good as they hate it and get their tiny feet stuck in it.

Or alternatively, not enough spacers, as above.

is the headset and all the various spacers and washers in the correct order i had this once and had put it together slightly wrong

Bearing/crown not sitting correctly? Had this with some new forks with hope bottom set...had me baffled for a week. Took it apart 4 times before it sat properly.

Great suggestions there, thanks.

Fwiw,

deffo more than 3mm clearance below top cap

Agree 12nm is a lot (it didn't start that way I just ramped it up to try to effect a cure)

Yes, tightening up top cap before stem bolts.

Threadloc a good idea, will try that.

Not sure I should need (or want) to tighten the stem bolts to more than 6nm ?

Will look at degreasing/roughening steerer.

Fairly sure headset is seated correctly will check but wouldn't this be fairly obvious and at 12nm surely they would be seated by now ?

Wasnt fairly obvious to me and had it screwed good and proper. It must have been out only a fraction but made a really bad knocking sound. I actually thought my forks were broken!

Agree 12nm is a lot (it didn't start that way I just ramped it up to try to effect a cure)

Take it all apart and start from scratch.
Check the Crown race is right
Check the bearings are still good
Fit in order check each part is fitted right and moves properly as you go.
Try another spacer above the stem (or adjust the spacer combo so that you have more steerer above to make sure your clamping bolts are on the steerer.
Tighten it up.
Do up the stem bolts tight.

The only time I've had something similar was due to bearings on the way out and being away from a shop/tools to fit a new HS properly.

Jeez, you guys are up early ! I couldn't sleep what's your excuse ?

it's 2:30pm

Where ?

well it was 2:30 pm in Tasmania

Can you assess the play? Has the stem moved up the steerer, or are you able to twist bars, but there's no movement in the headset. Is the lower crown race fully seated on the forks? If not, one ride can drive it down a tiny bit.

 

This doesnt make sense. How old is the headset? Sits flush? Checked the headtube for cracks? Do the headset cups go in way too easily?

I'd get it reinstalled and checked from scratch.

I've fitted loadsof headsets. Axstretched headtube/worn h/set is my fear.

CSU (crown/Steerer unit) loose? I just had my crown/steerer replaced on my forks that were in for other damage. It explained why I had to keep tightening my HS until I crippled the bearings.

i've had a headdoctor not pull up tightly enough that caused this - or a slipping SFN will do similar.

I had this happen recently when I changed forks. It was a superstar stem I had, and it was that was slipping. Even torqued up it wasn't clamping enough. Swapped to a nother stem from the parts box and no problems. So maybe it was a case of a slack stem and slightly small steerer.

Amazing how many people don't understand how a headset works. One its preloaded correctly and the stem bolts done up tight then the SFN and top cap are redundant and can actually be removed if you wanted. A slipping SFN will not cause this guys problem.

Rockhopper yes that should be the case. 6nm on the stem bolts should be enough to prevent slippage shouldn't it ?

Hora, the headset is 100 miles old, cups are installed by Liteville at the factory so should be perfect.

Common sense would seem to dictate slippage in stem. We're not talking about a massive amount here but enough that I notice it's changed from when it was last tightened down (after last ride). Front brake on and rocking gently you now it's moving. Very annoying. May just take it all out and start from scratch as has been suggested.

What make is it? Cane Creeks really need cranking down.

Amazing how many people don't understand how a headset works. One its preloaded correctly and the stem bolts done up tight then the SFN and top cap are redundant and can actually be removed if you wanted. A slipping SFN will not cause this guys problem.

Rockhopper - Member
Amazing how many people don't understand how a headset works. One its preloaded correctly and the stem bolts done up tight then the SFN and top cap are redundant and can actually be removed if you wanted. A slipping SFN will not cause this guys problem.

i've had bikes with expander steerer bungs that have slowly slipped up over time causing the headset to go loose, so while this theory is often trotted out in the real world it's not the case

it's happened several times too, replaced the bung with something more secure and the problem's gone away

so it *could* be that, could be all sorts of other things

Rockhopper - Member
Amazing how many people don't understand how a headset works. One its preloaded correctly and the stem bolts done up tight then the SFN and top cap are redundant and can actually be removed if you wanted. A slipping SFN will not cause this guys problem.
i've had bikes with expander steerer bungs that have slowly slipped up over time causing the headset to go loose, so while this theory is often trotted out in the real world it's not the case

it's happened several times too, replaced the bung with something more secure and the problem's gone away

so it *could* be that, could be all sorts of other things

kinda proves his point...

The only way the star nut would cause this problem would be if the continued over tightening of the top cap meant that the star nut had been pulled all the way up the steerer to the point it was hard against the top cap, thus allowing the op to get lots of torque with out preloading the bearings .

But this would mean he would not be able solve the issue temporarily before the ride.

The crown race not being seated hard against the crown would do this until the constant tightening and riding eventually pushed it down hard against the crown.

i've had bikes with expander steerer bungs that have slowly slipped up over time causing the headset to go loose, so while this theory is often trotted out in the real world it's not the case

Yep, I removed the bung from a carbon steerer (because they weigh loads) after preloading the headset and tightening the stem, and the headset came loose. Likewise tried pre-loading a headset with a big threaded rod and some washers, with no SFN/top cap, and the headset comes loose.

So no, it shouldn't, but it does. I'd guess the vibrations are enough that the stem moves by half a mm or so, which is enough to cause play.

Yep, I removed the bung from a carbon steerer (because they weigh loads) after preloading the headset and tightening the stem, and the headset came loose. Likewise tried pre-loading a headset with a big threaded rod and some washers, with no SFN/top cap, and the headset comes loose.

Could this be because a carbon steerer is flexible and the bung works not only to preload the bearings but also to reinforce the steerer against the crushing forces of the stem.

Like when using poly pipe for plumbing you have to fit inserts at joints to strengthen the pipe and prevent future leaks.

Possibly, the second instance was with an alu steerer, several friends have found the same too. Whilst the top cap [i]shouldn't[/i] do anything at all once the stem is tightened, in reality it does.

I have exactly the same problem.
I started a thread on here and went through all of the checks that people suggested.
The only one left that I haven't done is replacing the HS (I'll do it when I believe the HS is knackered).

On-One Ti456, bought new, fully built in December and after every single bloody ride the headset needs the slack taken out (On-One customer service were no help what so ever).

I now tweak it up once a month rather than after every ride.

Are you doing up your stem bolts equally? if they are not tightened equally it could cause some movement. don't do them up on at a time but do them up little bit each until they are tight.

I tend to tighten the top cap bolt fairly tight to get rid of any play, then tighten the stem bolts, tight and equal, then back the top cap bolt off a bit. seems to work.

Why back the top cap bolt off?

Whilst the top cap shouldn't do anything at all once the stem is tightened, in reality it does.

robinlaidlaw - Member

This is absolutely true and I doubt that anyone who claims the top cap is not needed has tried riding hard with it removed over a period of time. The stem does get worked a little on the stem by impacts and vibration and without something to stop it being able to move up the steerer freely, it will.

Definitely with this line of thinking. Although it took me many months, a new headset & new stem to come to the same conclusion.

I think the problem was particularly bad on a bike I have with a 130mm travel fork and only a 100mm headtube. The stem has to clamp at a very high force, so close to the crown, to counter the leverage of the fork.

Specialised used to supply some of their cheaper models with plastic top caps - no way will that exert any clamping force.

njee20 - spose it doesn't really need it once the stem bolts are done up properly. But I always just undo it and re tighten so it's only nipped up.

I had this problem for a while, turned out I had some grease on my steerer and although I was giving the stem a good tighten it was working loose after a couple of rides. A bit of degreaser on the top of the steerer and the inside of the stem sorted it.

plastic top caps - no way will that exert any clamping force.

But I always just undo it and re tighten so it's only nipped up.

I'm having the same problem, alloy steerer and stem but I'm going to see if some carbon paste will help

I had this on a Yeti and it turned out to be that the headset wasn't seated properly when I tightened it up. It looked, felt and sounded like it was fine until I took it out for a ride and it would loosen part way round. Try seating the forks, bearing and headtube, tighten the top cap just a little bit - just enough to hold everything in place - then lift the front of the bike to take the weight of the wheel and try re-seating the bearings.

The other option i can think of is that the waggle is not coming from the headset but from worn bushings in the forks.

I'd recommend the opposite, gentle nip to preload, clamp the stem, then tighten the preload bolt up a bit more to stop it working loose.

Furry muff, but I've never had a problem so i'm not gonna change now......

I say nipping it up, but in reality i'm a bit of a brute so my nipping is probably someone else's full on tightening!!

I'd recommend the opposite, gentle nip to preload, clamp the stem, then tighten the preload bolt up a bit more to stop it working loose.

after the stem is tightened properly it's only purpose is decoration.

As has been said repeatedly, whilst that's the theory, in reality if you carry on riding without one your headset [i]will [/i]come loose.

all you are going to do is put massive stress on the bolt (or snap it).

I rode 3/4 of Penmachno with no top cap, after the stem is tightened properly it's only purpose is decoration.

decoration, and to stop any slippage of the stem.

could be settling of bearings, cups, crown race. have seen crown race not fit leaving a 1mm gap, and the torque needed on top cap bolt to get it in place would round out the bolt at best, or snap it. Mine are all Hope, with split race, so can be sure they fit properly.

I'd have stem off, degrease stem above top bearing, degrease inside of stem clamp, and try again. In fact I usually do that anyway, since poking forks up thru headset bearings can get grease on the clamping area anyway.

Presumably the forks are tapered? I had problems with the straight steerer and adapters on my 301, but it was largely creaking.

I hope you dont have the same problem (see below) I did; Liteville fixed it under warranty but it was a right faff
Date: 10 April 2014 21:36:02 BDT
To: syntace@syntace.de
Cc: Phillip Morgan <phillipmorgan@onetel.com>
Subject: Liteville 301

hi

my Liteville was purchased on 28/2/2013 and has developed a problem. I have noticed a little movement in the steering when pushing the bike forward & backward with the front brake on. Over the last 6 months I have been trying to find the cause eg brakes & pads, wheel bearings, fork bushes etc but with no progress.

Today I decided to take the forks and steering apart & check the headset bearings & clean the components. When I started the rebuilding process I felt some movement in the top bearing and realised the whole bearing assembly is loose and it moves around a little in the steering tube; when I push the fork into place I can feel & see the little movement on the contact face.

It is no longer a press fit into the head tube; it is easy just to pull it out- it would fall out if the bike is upside down. I have made some measurements using my vernier caliper

Frame head tube Inside diameter: largest 49.35mm smallest 49.10mm

Bearing outer diameter: smallest 48.92mm largest 49.00mm

Please can you advise what I should do