[Closed] So what now for the big name light producers?

...as last sentance.

Brands come and go, what is 'in' now will be 'out' in a few years time, a sufficient number of MTBers will always happily pay stupid money for the next best expensiveist thing, and night biking appears to attract group willy-waving in the form of bizzare lighting 'arms races', from what I've heard on here.

I expect we'll see a lot more cheaper mass-produced chinese brands entering this fairly lucrative market. But the big money brands will still be there. Mountain biking is the [i]new golf[/i], don't ya know 😉

Being overwhelmingly cheep myself - and a fan of mass-produced chinese tat - I for one happily applaud lights of the like of the DX. It means that relative paupers like myself can actually obatain a better night riding experience than that envoked from strapping a hiking head torch to the handlebars and briefly seeing spotted quolls* dissapearing into encroaching pools of pitch black inky darkness.

Now.. if only it weren't rapidly becoming summer in this particular hemisphere, I'd buy one. 😉
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* a carnivorous marsupial

but when you read stories about the number of weeks some have had to wait, service sells.

I ordered a set of ayups and had them in my hands within 4days, if i had wanted Hope or exposure i could have had them the next day. Personally i am impatient and want things quickly.

Well mrmo you have pointed out another cost to the manufacturer
so better service is another added cost towards the price of the light.
Friend has the large Hope light and a very nice bit of engineering
But does it have to be metal?
Dont know the market is Lucrative has what is the cost of making this product, but surely making a profit!
But insaying that when you see the tests in magazines against the cheaper lights it seems an obvious reason why they are that price.
Thought ABS was the new metal some years back, and would make the product
cheaper.

i dont think the big companys will be crapping them selves at the DX etc - spoke to the head honcho at USE/exposure the other week and top and bottom of it , demand was outstripping supply at his end. He didnt seem worried about the DX ...

I dont think the folk who buy the likes of dx lights at the moment would have ever been in the market for the brand name lights if it wasnt for the dx - and those that are will probably still buy a brand name light when the DX fails and they are hooked on night riding , i think these cheap lights are great for that purpose. It means they get the real night riding experiance without having to first experiance it with crap lights and guess at what it really like !

Personally i didnt buy into the DX set up as i want something reliable for racing - i want something i can have fixed in the UK ASAP and im sure that if i were to experiance issues that were not my fault and i was racing at the weekend id be able to get a demo set of lights to use while mines were being fixed because USE are nice guys - ive experianced this from zyro in the past with lupines - and i didnt even have lupine lights !

like the guy above says - service sells - thats why i still shop in my local bike shops (ok they are good shops)

I'm still happily running NiCad Halogen lumicycle lights. They light the way enough for me to get a decent ride in before the pub. I'm never going to race, so I don;t see the point in buying a new set of lights that will turn blackest night into day for 8 hours. I'm odd though 😉

It has to be said, that after comparing a DX light to my £300 Limi HID, I think these days you've got to be crackers to spend more than £100 on a full set-up. For me the days of expensive bike lights are over. I'm seriously considering selling my Lumi, buying a DX, and pocketing the change......

What happens when your Deal Extreme light fails?

I think many of the big companies willget out of lights. LED tech moves on so quick that you need new lights every couple of years, last years super bright is next years adequate.

I bet there are loads of unsold £250+ lights sitting in warehouses devaluing fast.

The market will consolidate into cheap led torches, Cheap specific led bike lights and a few expensive high end lights - for some companies it just will not be worth it to continue

How many light units have say Hope sold? all their lights are now using old LED tech ( I think) Is it really worth them redesigning with the latest LED tech know there is a fair chance that they will be outdated again in a year or two?

What happens when your Deal Extreme light fails?

You send it back and they replace it. You could buy 3 or 4 spares though and still have change from the price of most similarly specced lights.

You order a new one as they are that cheap?

Failure isn't only going to affect the cheap stuff, pretty spectacular fails have been seen on big brand name kit as well...the only real difference between the DX and big brand stuff is that the repair or replacement will arrive sooner from the big brand with support in the UK - daft question as that is very obvious...to some people that clinches the deal, but there are those out there that either don't worry about the warranty (bearing in mind they are so much cheaper for comparable lights, a proportion of buyers will think they are cheap enough to replace); to others, they can't afford the big name lights so they go elsewhere where they can get a very similar performance but for a fraction of the cost.

I don't think the big brands are concerned that much...but what it has done is open up the realms of night riding to a lot more people as the cost of owning lights has got considerably cheaper.

But does it have to be metal?

Yes. For heat transfer reasons - heat kills LEDs.

What happens when your Deal Extreme light fails?

_IF_ it fails.....

I send it back, or repair it. Same as any other light. 🙂

I guess the major brands have a wider market than independents and that keeps their margins high enough to continue.
Factor in the power of advertising, retail outlets and 'brand name' allure and I don't see them being unduly threatened by cheap imports and the cutting edge enthusiasts.

Sounds like Trout is working his fins off supplying a small market with top spec lights at very low margins - excellent work indeed, but I guess he'd agree that to scale it up to the 'making a decent living' level wouldn't be that easy........

TandemJeremy - Member

I think many of the big companies willget out of lights. LED tech moves on so quick that you need new lights every couple of years, last years super bright is next years adequate.

[b][i]Why[/i][/b] do you need new lights if the ones you have are still working? Just cos there's something "newer and better", doesn't mean you have to buy it?

I think people are getting a bit carried away with the DX light, very good for 50 quid as it is, it's still nowhere near as good as any of the proper top end bike lights.

Can't see the DX ruining the market, OK some folk on this site have gone mad for it, but at the very extreme (sorry) this site has generated maybe 500 sales, but it's probably waaaay less than that. They'll be those for whom buying from a UK source with all the benefits that go with it will be worth paying extra for. There are some that simply won't trust the light to perform, or don't want to wait (for either delivery or repair/replacement). Or will want a light simply because it's the most expensive.

The Market place for lights has space in it for £50 Chinese bargains, and boutique hand knitted "best of everythings" that start at £300. Not every-one buys on Price, otherwise, we'd all have Deore, no?

😉

The technology is and will continue to change rapidly. This will mean brighter and longer lasting lighter weight lights. The marketing departments will convince you that you need to turn night into day and they will continue to sell lights.

There will be expensive and highly marketed ones along side cheap ones that are not marketed. Its like the bike market.

People are getting 'carried away with it' because for the vast majority of people proper top end bike lights were never a viable option - and the DX light is perfectly good enough for almost everyone's needs.

I'm mightily impressed with my DX light, in its build quality, and performance. I'm most impressed with the price. Having seen it alongside others, I think it easily compares in performance and in having a solid feel.

I get the feeling a lot of the people here knocking the DX are a bit jealous to be honest. What shall i do with this £150 I've got in my pocket......?

and those that are will probably still buy a brand name light when the DX fails and they are hooked on night riding , i think these cheap lights are great for that purpose. It means they get the real night riding experiance without having to first experiance it with crap lights and guess at what it really like !

I've experienced it with so called "crap lights", namely a tesco torch on my head and an alpkit gamma. It did not in anyway detract from my night riding, nor have I had to "guess at what it's really like". I think one of the things I'm going to miss by having a DX P7 is the feeling that I'm actually riding at night. I find "high end lights" just stop it being proper night riding.

I think people are getting a bit carried away with the DX light, very good for 50 quid as it is, it's still nowhere near as good as any of the proper top end bike lights.

Maybe it's not (But it's not far off...) but you don't NEED a top end light with one-point-twenty-one-gigawatts of power and a case lovingly machined by an engineer, do you? Only the adverts tell you that....
A £50 DX is every bit as good as a 2-3 year old top-end light, and nobody was complaining about those 2-3 years ago, when they were the mutts nuts, were they? There's no escaping the fact that it's a great bit of kit at a silly price, and exactly what most riders need..... 🙂

[i]What happens when your Deal Extreme light fails?
[/i]
_IF_ it fails.....

I send it back, or repair it. Same as any other light.

The point I'm making is that some people don't really want to send a light to Hong Kong then wait for it to be returned if it breaks and don't have the technical ability to fix a broken one.

Amyway, there isn't a right or wrong answer, but the sniping at main brand light companies and people who buy from them is getting a bit wearing, no? Sure the components for lights are relatively cheap, but the bike business isn't run as a charity for your benefit, companies have overheads to cover and still need a margin on top.

I suspect that if Troutie for example, was reliant on his lighting for a main source of income, his lights would be a fair bit more expensive.

I run mostly homebrew Cutter lights - mix of Trout housings and converted Lumi halogen cans - and they do the job with light to spare and are cheap with it. But I have a Joystick Maxx as a helmet light because it works well, is self contained and versatile and, to be honest, while I probably could build something similar myself with a bit of time and effort, I really can't be bothered. Liking the look of the new Diablo as well - same convenience, but brighter.

Live and let live on the lumen front eh?

5W halogens are 'good enough', people still buy better lights though. The DX is good for 50 quid, but it's very floody, not great at distance.

It's the old 'need' Vs 'want' argument isn't it 😉

Make a list of everything you own and see how many things you actually 'need' - particularly in the hobby and recreational areas people like to have the luxury of items well above their needs and that's what keeps people in business........

Doesn't the DX light use the same lamp/tech as the Lupine Tesla @ £275?

I ride with a P7 on my head and P7 on the bars and it is an absurd amount of light. I'd even ride the Cwmcarn downhill track close to full speed with that much light. And it costs £60ish for the pair and four batteries. I frankly can't bring myself to buy anything else, I'd rather save the money for the endless drain that is funding chains and cassettes for 3 bikes at 2010 prices thanks!

[i]A £50 DX is every bit as good as a 2-3 year old top-end light[/i]

Hmmmm, not convinced by that, my 5 yr old HID (retired now as the ballast to too flaky to rely on) makes a friend's DX look light a Gas lamp...

i'm just hoping my lumi halogen lasts a few more years... ok, battery life isn't as comparable (still get nearly 3 hours though), but i much prefer the light which is emitted from a halogen over LEDs...

when they do go though, i'll replace them with lumis again, as the customer service is, imo, 2nd to none.

but it's very floody, not great at distance.

At what distance? Are you racing downhill or something?

Reliability problems with DX lights? Have there been many? First I've heard of it if so, fill me in please...

Out of the three people I know who've got them, one's charger failed out of the box. Another guy had problems with the bar mount slipping, although that might be "user error". They seem like a great light for the money (concerns over reliability aside), but not in the same league as L&Ms, Ayups or Hopes (Lupines seem to be a special case of being expensive and rubbish).

I think the Deore drivetrain comparison is a good one. Will your pedals still turn OK with Deore cranks? Of course. Will they last as long, and do they have the design refinements of a more expensive set? Probably not.

Now, about those Chris King headsets... 😉

What happens when your Deal Extreme light fails?

I have bought 2 for that very reason. So if one 'does' fail then while that is being sent off i use the other one. Guaranteed all winter riding, plus i also have the option to take 2 batteries out with me. All for less than £100.

It has to be said, that after comparing a DX light to my £300 Limi HID, I think these days you've got to be crackers to spend more than £100 on a full set-up. For me the days of expensive bike lights are over. I'm seriously considering selling my Lumi, buying a DX, and pocketing the change......

I think you right there.
It's like bikes, why do people spend thousands on full suspension to ride local trails when a cheap hard tail will do the job? train more improve your skills if you want better handling, want to go faster?... train harder. Why spend loads on say a Yeti when an On-one will do?

My lumi halogen seems to be as bright as anything else out there. Ok, so they're a bit heavy and the run time is fairly short, but this isn't an issue really, as I have a spare battery . And they're mega-cheap second hand.

It's like bikes, why do people spend thousands on full suspension to ride local trails when a cheap hard tail will do the job? train more improve your skills if you want better handling, want to go faster?... train harder. Why spend loads on say a Yeti when an On-one will do?

Exactly. Currently riding an On-One, and I sold my Yeti an Bought a Pitch, and pocketed £400.

Oh yes, I can see where the money goes on expensive kit, but like I said above, I've just become a bit wiser in my buying habits recently.
I was as guilty as anybody for wanting a flash bike, so I had one, then sold it for something more appropriate for the riding I do.
I think the flashiest components I've got now are a 3 year old XT chainset, a used King headset and a pair of Hope hubs that I picked up for next to nothing. Loosing 100g or gaining 3% stiffness here and there won't make a jot of difference to me like it might do for others, and it's the same for lights.
My Lumi is very good and very bright. But it's 2 years old, and I could sell it and get a DX with change to spare and it's VERY tempting to do just that, having seen one in action. MrsPPs L&M ARC however is another thing entirely. That is far superior to most modern LED stuff. I use it myself as we don't night ride together that often, which is another reason to get rid of thr Lumi.... 🙂

EDIT
I must admit that part of the pleasure for me is getting decent kit that works well for the lowest price possible. It's easy to walk into a shop and pay top dollar for the best kit available, then walk out feeling very smug (I've done it, it's nice) but if I can get nearly the same for 1/4 of the price, feel nearly as smug, but be a bit richer then, hey, that's good too right? 😉

I'm not really trying to sell my Lumi right now, by the way. 😉

Exactly. Currently riding an On-One, and I sold my Yeti an Bought a Pitch, and pocketed £400.

Oh yes, I can see where the money goes on expensive kit, but like I said above, I've just become a bit wiser in my buying habits recently.
I was as guilty as anybody for wanting a flash bike, so I had one, then sold it for something more appropriate for the riding I do.
I think the flashiest components I've got now are a 3 year old XT chainset, a used King headset and a pair of Hope hubs that I picked up for next to nothing. Loosing 100g or gaining 3% stiffness here and there won't make a jot of difference to me like it might do for others, and it's the same for lights.
My Lumi is very good and very bright. But it's 2 years old, and I could sell it and get a DX with change to spare and it's VERY tempting to do just that, having seen one in action. MrsPPs L&M ARC however is another thing entirely. That is far superior to most modern LED stuff. I use it myself as we don't night ride together that often, which is another reason to get rid of thr Lumi....

I think 'The next big thing' now that brightness and run times seems to be sorted is adjustable beam patterns / colour temperatures.

Still waiting on my DX magicshine to arrive but if it's as good as most people report then I can't see a reason you'd need anything else either. I currently have 09 Ay-Ups on my road bike and an 08 Exposure Enduro + Joystick for MTB.

The Ay-Ups are good but don't penetrate as far as I would like, going to see how the DX compares (I've read it's floody but the additional brightness may still means if throws out usable light at a greater distance).

On the MTB the Exposure Enduro + Joystick combo are fine for local stuff but I need more light for trail centre night riding so hoping the DX will provide that.

Given I've spent a load already on name-brand lights (that get good reviews) and still find them lacking I don't think a £50 punt of DX lights is wasted money. If it solves my problems I'll buy another as a spare, if it doesn't I'll flog it to someone cheaply.

I do think now it's pretty hard to justify spending £200+ on your first set of lights without having tried the DX (or seen a mate's), regardless of whether you can afford mega expensive lights or not.

I think 'The next big thing' now that brightness and run times seems to be sorted is adjustable beam patterns / colour temperatures

I agree with that, beam patterns certainly. But the thing is, a new more even/useable beam doesn't grab the headlines like more power or longer runtime, sadly.

I think something with a proper dip/flood beam and a switchable high/long range beam (Think car headlight) would be great. But that doesn't seem to be the direction manufacturers are taking right now. Most are simply picking a generic LED and reflector off a shelf, and adding a battery. Then packaging it in a flash looking case, with lots of functions we don't actually need. I see a head unit, with a simple on/off switch on the side and a big clicky button on the top for high and low beam, from 2 seperate bulbs giving a wide dipped flood then adding a powerful long range high beam. If someone made that, I might consider lashing out £300+ again.....

I think something with a proper dip/flood beam and a switchable high/long range beam

Yeah I might be willing to pay extra for a quality light with features like that. Until that point the DX will do me fine.

DX lights are dead easy to strip and rebuild.

At what distance? Are you racing downhill or something?

Haha, no far from it! As I said it is great for the money, just not as good as some of the more expensive lights.

wow its like on-one syndrome all over again - same folk same arguements

one thing about trouts light is the relative simplicity of dealing with any problems yourself if you built it from kit in the first place.

LEDs, drivers, switches, lens can all be sourced from the same place that Trout got them in the first place making effective DIY repairs a reality.

Ahem... to answer the question head on (anal I know ;)) I rekon they big manufacturers are going to have to gap some of the distance.
(long story begins)
Last year I moved to dorking (from london) so for first time had real opportunity to night ride but let that winter go as really couldnt see myself splashing the £250 I'd need for a decent ride (had a little'un on the way) come this year similar dilema but just thought after a summer of mid week rides i just cant bring myslef to only ride at weekends. So thought bugger it bite the bullet. So looked around and was thinking I could just enter the market with £80 and buy a hope 1, would probably be weak but im sure it would just about get me around. Then thought well maybe I could just stretch to £160 and get a hope 2 or joystick. I seemed from reading they would still only really do half the job. Then I thought, I know, those clever chaps on singletrack world would know a thing or two about lights (I'm normally on dh forums)and up pops the DX. Christ I thought is that for real, is it some dodgy forum spaming from a company. But no, it is for real. something almost like a high end light for the price of a commuter light. Firstly, thanks singltrack peeps for putting me on to this, second, once the word spreads from forum to forum everyone will be getting them. In fact I think this is happening now.

Now if there was a hope or something for a £100 my patriotism and need for better service would see me buy british or at least a bigger brand. But when the difference is something like £150... well the choice is simply made for me. So how can the market not be changed by the DX. I rekon it could even go as far as to change the political system 😉

anyone awake... now im on your forum youd better get used to long (dyslexic) posts, I'm an XC'r now the winters here and for some reason the DH guys were getting bored of me. go figure...

Whut?!? What happened?!?! Where am I??!!

The last thing i remember was starting to read dogmatix's post, and the next thing i was picking myself up off the floor.....

😉

Seen this thread on here cant link but This DX light is crap by Mugboo

Dont know much about these anyone one got a link on these and the P7 light

Here's a new one from a big name producer....HID & LED, and only £975!

[img] [/img]

http://www.amba-marketing.com/products/921-2010_supernova_x7_ultimate_lightset.php?r=3m7b26s0

It's a no-brainer

£975! You could buy a car for that!

I think this month's MBR review shows that the big manufacturers don't have that much to fear, since they only reviewed a low performing, expensive Fenix instead of a DX bike light or P7 torch. Likewise WMB, which didn't review a single torch or the DX light. And MBUK did review the DX light, but under a different brand and for 3 times the normal cost.

Like it or not, most riders aren't reading STW, they're reading the big name mags and saying "Oh, MBR says Ayups are really good, I'll get them".

pypdjl: "I think people are getting a bit carried away with the DX light, very good for 50 quid as it is, it's still nowhere near as good as any of the proper top end bike lights."

2 DX lights outperforms a Seca 900, which is one of the better and more expensive lights out there. Lacks the extreme range, but better fill, which is more useful unless you're seriously shifting. And still costs about 1/4 as much. Game Dealextreme tbh- and yes, I've tried both, and a Hope 4. And of course, 2 lights gives better allround results (helmet and bars), and gives you a backup.

I wouldn't trade either for my 2 torches. Or maybe I would, in order to sell the expensive light and buy more torches, and spend the rest on hookers and blackjack.

Gary where abouts did you purchase the P7 and where did you
buy the Tourch mounts please

I think that what will really scare the big light manufacturers is when one of the distributors gets on to DX and gets in a container of these DX lights, and starts punting them in normal bike shops side by side with the other offerings, ready to go with a UK pluggable charger and that-day collection, for say 80 quid.

I would pay that.

Na just supply an adapter £ 60 notes and im Happy 😉

FYI MBUK reviewed the DX light set in this months issue. It was being sold through a UK distributor under a different name, presumably with decent UK service, for £150. MBUK did mention that you can buy them 'direct from the far-east' for £50.

They also measured the light output at the centre of the spot - probably not a completely comprehensive test as it ignores beam variation etc. Even so, you had to spend a lot more than £50 to get the same output as the DX.

The argument about beam spread etc is fairly irrelevant to a lot of people I'd have thought? As someone who was riding with a £3 ebay LED torch cable tied to their helmet and was really enjoying riding in near total darkness, the DX that just arrived seems complete over-kill. The suggestion that I might prefer to spend another £150 for a better spread of this lights seems a bit ridiculous. If it breaks, then I've still got that £3 torch in the bag and when I've bought another I'll have two battery packs. Judging by some of the warrantyisbest posts above, by the time it comes to SITS next year, I'll have enough batteries to last the whole night. Perfect.

Aren't moon-lit rides the way forward though really?

Aren't moon-lit rides the way forward though really?

Depends if you riding in a wood/forest i guess.

Aren't moon-lit rides the way forward though really?

Let me guess.....you're a SSer?

lol @ oo00oo!

is the MBUK review online at bikeradar yet? i'd be interested to read it if anyone can remember the name or anything. Otherwise i'll have to go all the way to WHSmiths at lunchtime and read it in there..

[i]As someone who was riding with a £3 ebay LED torch cable tied to their helmet and was really enjoying riding in near total darkness[/i]

People want different things from the night riding experience, shocker...

My night riding is done more or less totally in woodland, unless it's a totally clear night, there's more or less no ambient light at all, Unless one's idea of fun is cycling down singletrack at a couple of miles an hour seeing barely a couple of metres in front, then a decent light is as important as having working brakes or a helmet. A couple of years back that meant HID, now there's more choice, this is a good thing TBH

There's nothing wrong with the DX performance. I bought one to check it out.

It lights up everything nicely, and if I didn't have a set of AyUps I'd be happy with it. I prefer the AyUps because of their versatility and choice of beam patterns.

We'll be checking the reliability of the DX in the 'Puffer (my son will use it) - hopefully it will not provide the instant blackness experience a name brand light gave me last year - which is why I now use AyUps.

(For those who don't know, the guys behind AyUp actually race endurance events which is why their lights are so sorted.)

Whats this P7 touch that some of you have?

"is the MBUK review online at bikeradar yet? i'd be interested to read it if anyone can remember the name or anything. Otherwise i'll have to go all the way to WHSmiths at lunchtime and read it in there.."

The company name is Leddite I think. But you'd have to be mental frankly. They give it 10/10 for value, despute the 300% markup over the DX price, which gets you nothing but a UK charger and an easier warranty service. A UK adaptor for the DX charger costs 50p!

there always will be people banging on about the quality/ light colour/ service/ there is too much light i prefer to spend a lot and ride in the dark etc but i think the big names are falling behind.

my dx on low has "about" the same output and spread as my medium beam ayups, on full i may as well turn off the ayups for the difference it makes. not the same quality especially the battery but for 1/3rd the price of the previous cheapest/best i would be gutted to have bought anything else this year.

time will tell what is the better option but i will need to get 3yrs out of the ayups and 1 out of the dx for the cost to be the same.

I bought my DX light from a supplier here in Aus for $110 just a couple of months ago. Just checked their website again, and they've increased the price to $160 😯

arse,
they must be reading this and have realised they can charge more and people will still be happy with them.

crafty little fellows, just as well i already have a set 😉