[Closed] slow hand clap for Boris

Earphones are the new helmet apparently

Reminds me of that school shooting in the US where they wanted to ban kids wearing trenchcoats in the aftermath. Because the kid had concealed weapons inside one.

He has a point, it's just not the point on this occasion.

What he's deftly done is move the debate away from HGVs.

I find myself agreeing that there's a significant number of road users who are a danger to themselves and others when wearing headphones, and they should be made to stop it. They are, by and large, pedestrians though, so Boris' latest wheeze won't help any more than people are made safer by, I dunno, painting the road blue.

I'm going to stop wearing a helmet on the road on general principle I think, they're not even designed to protect at road speeds, let alone under the wheels of a lorry, and all I'm doing is perpetuating the idea that I'm undertaking some sort of dangerous extreme sport rather than using an eminently sensible, efficient and low impact form of urban transport. I'm starting to get a bit cross about all this.

Are you people foolish?

Journo plants sensationalist question, 'do you support ban on headphones' - gets perfectly reasonable answer, Journo releases story as 'Boris supports headphone ban'

Boris gets blame for changing focus, in fact its Journo creating an outrage out of nothing.

He has a point, it's just not the point on this occasion.

What he's deftly done is move the debate away from HGVs.

Agreed. 👿

If Boris can't grasp how to change attitudes of road users towards safely and responsibly using the roads, maybe he could learn from some small children who are making a better job of it than him:

[url= http://www.cyclesprog.co.uk/blog/tackling-problem-dangerous-parking-outside-school/ ]Linky[/url]

edlong, I mainly wear a helmet in winter so I can use the peak to keep the low sun out of my eyes, and when it's really cold, so I can wear a buff without looking like some sort of hippy. In the summer I generally don't bother.

Cough..
http://www.bikereader.com/contributors/johnson/mobilephone.html

Better than admitting his blue highways of death might be at fault

They should have been banned ages ago. Damn stupid idea.

Then get on with the more difficult process of how to make roads safer, once you've stopped people doing blatantly stupid things.

So everyone on this thread supports banning the deaf from riding in cities?

Have a listen to the actual discussion

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01kkx9j

The discussion regards headphones is brought up by a caller, starting about 30 minutes into the show - Boris says they're a problem, but also points his finger very squarely at the risk to pedestrians wearing headphones as well.

He also quite robustly makes the argument against helmet compulsion, makes the point on cyclists having a right to be on the road and to roadspace, puts Vanessa Feltz in her box a good few times and the rest of the discussion is very pro cycling and he discusses many of the challenges in an in depth fashion with extensive knowledge of the issues.

The response from some areas of the cycling community is bordering on histrionic, anything that remotely suggests cyclists need to take care is being jumped on as some form of attack on cyclists in general, blaming them for whats happened - which simply doesn't bear fruit when you listen to whats actually been said!

Darwinism innit? Ride through a really buy cities streets without the ability to hear what's going on around you? Why not give 'em a blindfold too. The gene pools better off without 'em.

Mind you... You could say the same about people squeezing them selves up the inside, between the kerb and a left-turning artic!

So everyone on this thread supports banning the deaf from riding in cities?

Except that they're, by and large, born like it, and therefore have other senses that have improved to compensate. Unfortunately sticking in earphones doesn't have this effect.

On another note, I never realised how much I use my ears cycling until I rode a motorbike, not being able to hear felt very strange.

I wouldn't ban earphones though, choice, innit.

The response from some areas of the cycling community is bordering on histrionic

Was TJ on there?

The more media coverage the better. EVERYONE needs to take more care.

not a headphone in sight;

[img] :large[/img]

The more media coverage the better. EVERYONE needs to take more care.

I agree that everyone needs to take more care but as for media coverage, I disagree. I've had to switch off several of these recent phone ins about the deaths 'cos the people phoning in, who presumably reflect society in general, scare the crap out of me with their attitudes towards cyclists. Until this attitude is sorted out, cyclists will continue to be 3rd rate road users

So everyone on this thread supports banning the deaf from riding in cities?

No. And I'm not in favour of banning blind people from walking in towns and cities either, but I don't want normally sighted people to intentionally wear blindfolds.

goes for a ride dressed in black, with black earphones and no lid

Ahh the old I'm not dead yet so it must be safe routine. I believe smokers fell for that for a while too.

When I see people cycling with earphones I think they are bloody crackers. You need ALL your senses when commuting. To be destracted by cool music- its turns it almost into a video game IMO.

Why the ire at Boris? You know, as a car driver DAILY I see idiots on bikes with inadequate lights, black/dark clothing, no helmet etc etc.

hora +1 - I agree with Boris, headphones in london traffic, on yer bike, is nuts. but this is distracting from the better subject which is that of banning HGV's at rush hour. I agree they should be banned from moving at rush hour, say 8-10am and then 4-6pm. Every little helps and that surely gives them enough time to do their deliveries in-between.

The discussion regards headphones is brought up by a caller, starting about 30 minutes into the show - Boris says they're a problem, but also points his finger very squarely at the risk to pedestrians wearing headphones as well.

He also quite robustly makes the argument against helmet compulsion, makes the point on cyclists having a right to be on the road and to roadspace, puts Vanessa Feltz in her box a good few times and the rest of the discussion is very pro cycling and he discusses many of the challenges in an in depth fashion with extensive knowledge of the issues.

Thanks for making the effort ninfan. I'll put my hand up and confess to a knee jerk reaction based on how it was reported yesterday. It does look a little different put in its proper context. I'll try and remember this next time I post something ill-informed - I don't think I'm the only forum user who could benefit from reflecting on this a bit.

I still think Boris is an arse though.

HGV's should be banned in certain times. Even MrsHora (non-biker) is horrified at the daily reports now.

I'm GLAD the press is focusing on this- there are always cyclist deaths however the media's short-term attention span is 'great' to hilight the tragedy and wrongs on both sides.

I thought Boris put himself across pretty well in that interview.

I'm with him on the headphones though, as I think it is crazy wiping out one of your senses, just when you need them the most.

Ahh the old I'm not dead yet so it must be safe routine.

Its not that at all - just a rational assessment of the risks using my own common sense rather than blindly following what is fed to me.
Id never smoke as the risks are far too high.

 

Sometimes my ride to the dirt involves some boring fire roads. I've ridden them a thousand times and to alleviate the boredom I wore sone earphones.
I got lost. The music stopped me paying attention and I missed my turn off. Therefore i think its a bad thing.
Ps how loud must you have your music to hear it above traffic noise?

^^^ loving the implications that deaf cyclists have developed the ability to sense traffic coming up behind them, is that some form of radar or is it more like a spidey-sense?

Im a headphone cyclist and Im still alive!(yes I know example of one) been cycling to work in london for 10ish years now, currently do a 20mile round trip 5 days a week

Ive listened to my ipod ever since I started, I dont have my music deafeningly loud, nor do I use noise cancelling headphones, so I can still hear traffic when it gets close, the general noise of traffic in london is so loud that almost any vehicle could come up behind you unnoticed and my headphones certainly dont drown out the noise.

I like listening to music as it helps me relax and focus on a pretty intense hour of cycling each way, sometimes I dont really notice it, sometimes I sing along.

Its possible Ive developed a 6th sense to warn me of approaching vehicles or Ive just been very lucky, but generally I just assume that theres a car/bus/HGV/motorbike about to come up behind me at all times, this, I think, helps keep me safe, that and being sensible at junctions roundabouts and importantly around buses and lorries.

IIts not 'how loud' its destraction and possible falling into middle thought/day dreaming?

IIts not 'how loud' its destraction and possible falling into middle thought/day dreaming?

Aracer posted [url= http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/19/boris-johnson-considers-banning-cyclists-headphones ]guardian link[/url] on other thread so I'll repeat myself

He (DCS Jones) said he shared Johnson's worries about headphones. "There is, I think, good call for lorries to have audible warning signals when they're turning left, but cyclists with headphones won't hear them.

I want to know whether this cyclist had their headphones on and didn't hear the train turning left.

[img] :large[/img]

The driver would have got away with it if it weren't for those pesky folk on twitter.

Unless everyone else's headphones are much better than mine I always notice how far up you have to turn the volume as soon as you go outside, even when it seems fairly quiet. My ipod doesn't go up anywhere near loud enough to block out a nearby truck!

stuff in front of me I can see with my eyes.
Stuff behind me I cant see - but could hear better without headphones.
But what exactly do I do with this extra information about stuff approaching from behind?
I cant distinguish between an overtaking vehicle and one about to plough into the back of me......so

...headphones help to take my mind off the very, very small chance of being run down by a lorry in circumstances I could do nothing about anyway.

But what exactly do I do with this extra information about stuff approaching from behind?

It makes you turn your head.

I cant distinguish between an overtaking vehicle and one about to plough into the back of me

I can. Maybe you need more practice using your ears? 🙂 I suspect you would be able to tell, to be honest.

It makes you turn your head.

I can....

I can't wait until the day i see this fat idiot pedaling around London.

I'd call him a moron, but he isn't. He's got everyone talking about the rights and wrongs of wearing headphones when its utterly irrevelant to the latest deaths.

No you cant

You've no idea!

Those with road savvy know that earphones won't hinder them.

Those that think conforming to the rules of the road, dressing like a christmas tree and wearing a helmet will see them safe are deluded.

What about savvy people who also wear a helmet and high viz and follow the rules?

The first two won't get you into any trouble, following the rules might get you killed.

If you were a savvy cyclist you'd know what a silly statement that was.

You have to ride well within the rules. There's a lot that the rules don't cover, it's called cycle craft.

Riding well within the rules gets naive well meaning people killed.

Here's Boris being nonchalant and a downright insensitive moron.

I can....

No you cant

No you cant

You've no idea!

hmmm.... maybe time to give up on this thread?

I wear earphones and wont change that - I feel obeying the highway code and observations are the way forward . . . If you doubt this try riding a motorbike for a while, nothing beats proper observations. And with some of the quiet engines about/pedestrians and other cyclist I wouldnt trust I was going to hear them all anyway earphones or not.

I can. Maybe you need more practice using your ears? I suspect you would be able to tell, to be honest.

Fair enough. Can you explain the differences in terms of noise?

I can. Maybe you need more practice using your ears?

Stop the thread right there.
Nothing is going to beat that.

Like ,eva 😯

I can. Maybe you need more practice using your ears?

I can tell when someone's going to pass close and when they're going to pass further away.

I've got two ears, so I have a fairly good idea of where sounds are coming from. It's called stereophonic sound.

If a sound is close, but still directly behind me, then it's going to be close. If it moves out towards my right then it's going to pass.

Can you honestly not locate sounds that are behind you?

We have this argument every time headphone use comes up, and I do wonder if some people just naturally aren't very good at sound location.

molgrips is sheldon being the doppler shift - do i get a fiver?

[img] [/img]

Here's Boris being nonchalant and a downright insensitive moron.

[i]Wriggle wriggle wriggle.[/i]

If they ban headphones for cyclists on distraction grounds, then ALL in car entertainment and conversations should be banned for drivers too.

If they ban headphones on safety grounds then they should ban deaf people from cycling and ban cycling on really windy days.

Of course they should do neither and allow people the personal choice. It amazes me how quickly people are happy to throw away their freedom on these threads.
How about just passing one more law to make it an offence to not use your common sense!!!

Fwiw, I cycle all summer with dance music blaring from my earbuds and I can still hear cars approaching from behind.

f a sound is close, but still directly behind me, then it's going to be close. If it moves out towards my right then it's going to pass.

No, personally I don't think I could locate a cars position accurately to within a foot or so over wind noise. What do you do if you think it's going to be close? Most of the overtakes I see when driving I would consider to be close.

Every time I've used headphones, quite a few times (a few tries on road then on the outdoor track mostly), they've made so much noise just from wind that I've had to turn up the music loud. Even without any music on the noise is still loud. Tried four or five sets of headphones.

It's not just the position of the car, it's the sound too. I can recognise a truck or a bus, which causes me to check my position and theirs; I can also recognise a boy racer gunning it which also makes me look round and check they've seen me. If I feel like someone's not seen me I'll hug the kerb or take evasive action.

I don't consider most overtakes to be too close. Most are ok.

agree with Boris. I think riding in town with headphones is crazy. I tried it on a cyclepath once just to see if it was ok like, and 10 metres later failed to hear a car coming from a crossing car park entrance. Saw the car ok, but would have heard it 5 seconds earlier without, which probably equates to 20 metres at a low car speed.

I also agree with Boris. He's trying to make it a safer place for cyclists. Sure there lots of other things that can be done but somethings better than nothing.

Im quite surprised at how many people think they are 'hot shot' riders who don't need their hearing to aid their own safety. It's just as bad as a boy reader who thinks he doesn't need to obey the speed limit to be safe.

The small on-ear phones I use don't stop me hearing/sensing traffic. Doesn't stop me sensing any of the tyres of vehicle mol grips lists but I'm still at a loss as how, if there is a constant stream of cars passing me, how I'm meant to detect the one that's 30cm further left and what I'd be able to do if it was.

This really is just another irrelevant thing to beat each other up about whilst we ignore the real issues. It's just another form of victim blaming. If you think music is dangerously distracting start campaigning for it to be banned from motor vehicles as they're the ones doing the damage. - no-one suggested dealing with deaths of pedestrians caused by drunk motorists by banning pedestrians from drinking

in london, and it is only a mentioned idea to do this in central london, I think riding with earphones is just dumb, there are so many cars/lorrys/motorbikes coming at you from many directions full awareness all around is pretty essential. I can hear / sense behind me as vehicles approach and on the whole can sense how close they are going to be, how fast they are and have an idea what they might do. In central london its an essential one of the senses that help survival.

I can see in less busy cities or on trails it might be less important but come and ride along the embankment/parliament square with headphones on, youre a braver man than me if you do it with headphones on in a busy rush hour.

ollie51 - Member
Here's Boris being nonchalant and a downright insensitive moron.

I'd heard about this earlier on the news portraying Boris as the moron, but seeing that in full I think Jenny Jones was just getting uptight and in a rant, not listening to Boris and seeing insults where there were none... except at the end when Boris did insult her, in a hilarious way 😀

Seriously though, while Boris has shifted the focus to the cyclist, he's bang on here. He's still saying that HGVs are a prime issue to sort out but he's dead right that cyclists have a duty also. To just (as Jenny says) treat the cyclist as pure victim, is wrong. In these 6 cases recently however, who knows until we have all the facts, but there are many who could avoid being run over by HGVs.

Myself, I only ride off road, but even if I was on road, it would be insane to ride up the inside of an HGV at a junction, whether it's their fault if they hit you or not (by not looking in their blind spot where they can't see you 😉 ). Just don't put yourself in harms way.

The cycle routes are a big problem sure. That's one you can rant at Boris about, though sounds like he's doing something about it. Yes it might help more if HGVs were banned at busy times though, but then don't come moaning when deliveries are being delayed, bearing in mind the HGVs are banned from driving overnight in London.

Headphones - up to you, but I'd rather hear the dangers around me. The purpose of headphones is to take you out of the hassles of the world around. That's why I use them at work 😉 . Not really what you want on the road though when those hassles are also dangers you need to pay attention to.

I see many off road with headphones too. Not an issue there, but I don't get it. I ride out in the countryside to get away from it all. Why would you want to get away from the nice countryside environment with headphones? Ah well, each to their own.

in london, and it is only a mentioned idea to do this in central london, I think riding with earphones is just dumb,

I don't know if you ride there but my feeling is the opposite. On my daily commute, which i've been riding for years, I know all the danger spots. I already know where someone might try to sneak inside/outside where the pinch points are, the timing of the light sequences. The best lines through a corner or junction. I probably know every point at which i need to look behind. A bit of background music or speech radio is fine.

I'd not do it on a route I didn't know well, or on fast moving A roads outside town and I don't enjoy riding with music off road (or skiing for that matter).

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/20/blaming-cyclists-road-deaths-bike-helmets-headphones ]Guardian piece from today - don't blame the victims[/url]

"the policeman in charge of traffic enforcement in London, DCS Glyn Jones, had cyclists without helmets stopped by police, saying, "the more vulnerable you are, the more careful you need to be". According to this logic the five-year-old child killed outside his primary school on St George's Road in south London a year ago – and whose father showed me the carrier bag that held the clothes he died in – should have been paying more attention than the drivers whizzing by on a three-lane red route at 3.30pm."

"But is it useful to connect the women lambasted for "risky" behaviour such as getting drunk, wearing tiny skirts or walking the streets after dark, with the cyclists attacked for "risky" behaviour such as not wearing a helmet and fluorescent jacket, or cycling without lights? Or to link both to other examples of (relatively) powerless groups accused of authoring their own failure, such as the poor and obese blamed for eating the wrong food? Or the black state school pupils who choose not to apply to Oxbridge?

I think so. Victim-blaming is a useful concept, because it helps us see that what happens when a victim is blamed is that a culprit – whether an individual, institution, or set of practices – is let off. Why so many people, including women and cyclists, collude in this is not mysterious: it is so much more comfortable to think that the poor bloke killed on his bike last week was an idiot; that the teenage girl gang-raped at a party was a slut. So much more comfortable not to focus on the fact that, if you drive a machine made of a ton of metal down the road, banging into a person and killing them is an occupational hazard."

I also agree with Boris. He's trying to make it a safer place for cyclists. Sure there lots of other things that can be done but somethings better than nothing.

In central london its an essential one of the senses that help survival.

Riding through traffic oblivious to your surroundings is a bad move. Riding through traffic with earphones in or hearing difficulties is not necessarily bad. And victim blaming, which is what Boris is doing, most definitely [b]IS[/b] bad.

i would happily put my point to boris given the chance
i wouldnt bother to continue the conversation with moltroll tho.

I can tell when someone's going to pass close and when they're going to pass further away.

Can you honestly not locate sounds that are behind you?

Every time I've used headphones, quite a few times (a few tries on road then on the outdoor track mostly), they've made so much noise just from wind

that I've had to turn up the music loud

*presumably your mileage [i]will[/i] vary between helmet designs

I'm with Boris here (and Molgrips to some extent). On my drive (and sometimes cycle) into the office I see bad examples of cycling all over the place. Jumping of red lights, riders wearing headphones who are seemingly oblivious to their surroundings, no helmets, undertaking of buses, vans and lorries, riding right alongside vehicles turning right or left etc.

That's not to say that drivers are any better - there's just as many god awful drivers on the road too, but the fact is, in a collision between a car and bike, then the cyclist is always going to come off worse.

Yes there should be segregated and better cycle lanes but at the moment there's not - therefore at present it's in the cyclists best interest for them to remain as alert and aware of their surroundings as possible and that includes not wearing earphones, which whether you like it of not [u]are a distraction[/u] and make you less aware of what's going on around you.

Talk of banning people from listening to radio's in a car is irrelevant since car drivers rely almost entirely on visual information to drive rather than listening out for other traffic. Motorists also have mirrors to see whats going on behind them at all times.

Boris is merely stating that cyclists have an obligation to cycle well, and to look out for themselves (of which not wearing headphones is just a part of this).

Talk of banning people from listening to radio's in a car is irrelevant since car drivers rely almost entirely on visual information to drive rather than listening out for other traffic.

Motorists also have mirrors to see whats going on behind them at all times.

For the rest of the "I see cyclists do X" arguments have a read of [url= http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/matt-glass/london-cyclist-deaths_b_4298701.html ]this[/url]

Deadkenny +1 spot on

(we really shouldn't find that clip funny though, but it is. I have watched it 3 times now!!!)

It's all conjecture though, unless you anti-headphones chaps have figures that not even Boris has re rates of injury between headphone/non-headphone wearers?

deadkenny - Member
I'd heard about this earlier on the news portraying Boris as the moron, but seeing that in full I think Jenny Jones was just getting uptight and in a rant, not listening to Boris and seeing insults where there were none... except at the end when Boris did insult her, in a hilarious way

Really? He didn't answer the question, usual obsfucation when confronted with his own figures on KSI showing cycling in London is getting more dangerous, then started attacking her personally because there was no defence.

And her riposte at the end was much funnier.

Last night I was waiting on the crossing at Hyde park corner around 5.45pm. The lights had just turned red so had I a final look before crossing. I white van was going really fast, I knew he had no intention of stopping. Luckily everyone else was looking too. I remember reading the number plate and then thinking, whats the point, I'll be wasting my time. When I turned the corner onto Sloane street there were 2 cops with a cyclist. I lost it (a bit) and told them what I thought. They told me to wait until they had finished with the cyclist (who had probably done the same thing as the white van but about 30 MPH slower). This happens all day long in London, buses, lorries and taxis.

Jeez, Jenny Jones is annoying. BoJo was very restrained when confronted with her bickering IMO.

jenny jones is very good, shes done soem ecellent workg to get Borris the master of BS to come clean on his closing of pollution monitoring stations and the numerous pollution alerts hes tried to cover up

cant believe people are still guillable enough to fall for borris' toussel-haired loveable character routine

and impressed about him making japes when it comes to cyclists deaths?!?

...are a distraction [for cyclists] and make you less aware of what's going on around you.

Talk of banning people from listening to radio's in a car is irrelevant since car drivers rely almost entirely on visual information...

So music is distracting for cyclists but not for drivers? How does that work then?

Why does background music make one group less aware of what's going on around them and not the other?

allthepies - Member
Jeez, Jenny Jones is annoying. BoJo was very restrained when confronted with her bickering IMO.

What part was 'bickering'?

cant believe people are still guillable enough to fall for borris' toussel-haired loveable character routine

So music is distracting for cyclists but not for drivers? How does that work then?

It's completely different, in a car you aren't being constantly overtaken, you aren't likely to have anyone turn left on you and even if it does happen you are in a metal box with protection.

The cold facts are that consequence of being hit while cycling is far greater than in a car, so as the cyclist you need to do all you can to minimise the probability of being hit. If you can't hear due to music, then you are increasing that chance, because you are less aware of your surroundings.

The cold facts are that consequence of being hit while cycling is far greater than in a car, so as the cyclist you need to do all you can to minimise the probability of being hit.

and the rest of your post seems to be specifically concerned with "left hooks" which are motorists fault. Yeah this is a bad thing that motorists do but the cyclist is the one who will get hurt. Hmmm what to do....?
I know lets make sure it's up to the cyclist to avoid the situation.
Slow hand clap for you too then.

Ban cyclists wearing headphones there will be no real downturn in cycling injuries, same is probably true for compulsive helmet use. Actually stop vehicle hitting cyclists and you will get a massive downturn. So that'll involve either suddenly improving everyone's driving or segregation