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...Neil - it is true.
Well
That's enough to convince me.
You can't beat pure evidence.
Every time I think about responding to this thread, I get distracted by these....
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So is it mainly the parents on here who are 'disgusted of Tunbridge Wells' ?
[i]See Mylie Cyrus, et al, "selfies"... as I said in the Online Dating thread - I was pretty amazed at how cheaply the 20-30 years olds sell themselves on dating sites - selfies down the cleavage, lying in bed etc.. who are we to say it's not ok, when they think it is normal?[/i]
Porn has made this normal that's why, we've got girls who think that this sort of behaviour is ok, it's being rammed down our throats every day* from adverts,from the net, from our work from our hobbies, everywhere.
*Don't, don't even think about it
[quote=cinnamon_girl ]So is it mainly the parents on here who are 'disgusted of Tunbridge Wells' ?
Not here, just have plenty of friends who are talented riders who let their riding do the talking. Keeping up an expectation that the women are window dressing for the "PROPER" mens riding.
Don't you think we're all a little bit out of touch? We were around in the 80s when Political Correctness had a big push, what with alternative comedy and the 'new man'. Things seem to have gone full circle and back to how they were in the 70s.
Yes Dez BUT women are now calling the shots and it's on their terms. For that type of thing that is, they probably consider themselves 'empowered'. 🙄
[i]we've got girls who think that this sort of behaviour is ok[/i]
Exactly what I was saying....
Are they "calling the shots"? was that girl in the original video? "Shall we point the GoPro at my tits?"...
Come on Dez that girl was having a ball! You don't think anyone 'persuaded' her to take part? 😀
Edit: of course it could be argued that everyone's turned into an attention whore thanks to technology. 😉
Yes but it is now ok because of exploitation of women through Porn . Some of things my friends now think is ok, ( and not just bedroom stuff) is just weird, it's like we're sucked into this weird Porn/ idealised/bitch fest where pointing a Gopro at your tits is apparently ok behaviour!!! How brainwashed do you need to be??
Answer; just enough to go along with it all, and think that your being "empowered" by it!!
Getting a bit Rad Fem, better stop I suppose 🙄
I tend to agree with you emsz, but that's cos of how we were educated in the 80s. (NME was my education on these matters!), but it's all gone back again.
[i]You don't think anyone 'persuaded' her to take part?[/i]
That's kind of my point too - just the way things are now, she had no idea that it would cause 6 pages of STW discussion... (And for me to post serious stuff DAMMIT!)
I'm absolutely sure the girls are checking us out as much as we checked them out
I dont think you are correct but I am sure each gender has a spectrum of opinion on oogling but it seems a safe bet to assume men do more of it than women.
we've got girls who think that this sort of behaviour is ok
Of course they do it, is everywhere in society but that does not mean it is a good thing or a step forward.
Cyrus twerking , or Brittany dressing as a schoolgirl , are good examples. They may well have "chosen" to act like that but it is not that great that they feel they have to sell records.
Personally I struggle to see how women overly sexualising themselves for either attention or to sell products can be viewed as a positive thing for either the woman or society.
Its relentless and it pervades too much of life IMHO
One offs may be amusing but its just tiresome, predictable and archaic
Emsz I heard that one of the "positives" of porn was that teenage pregnancies were on the decline due to endings being replicated in the real world
C_G I am a parent but of boys. Being father has not affected my opinion on this issue one way or the other.
Interesting point emsz. What's the answer though?
Personally I struggle to see how women overly sexualising themselves for either attention or to sell products can be viewed as a positive thing for either the woman or society.
Its relentless and it pervades too much of life IMHO
Junkyard - completely agree with you but do you have a solution?
Come on Dez that girl was having a ball! You don't think anyone 'persuaded' her to take part?
I think the point is that it's unlikely it was her idea.
I think the point is that it's unlikely it was her idea.
Not necessarily! Does anyone know anything about her, ie is she looking for sponsorship?
[i]is she looking for sponsorship?[/i]
Sponsor my cleavage?
Well clearly it's possible it was her idea, but which scenario seems most likely "let's do a video of my tits" or "let's do a video of a girl's tits to sell lots of our dodgy Ts"?
for balance we need rob warner to do his own version with a gopro pointing down his bum cleavage
I suppose to put it another way, Im guessing all the blokes that like the vid have the testicular fortitude to make their own video of themselves riding with a gopro angled on their meat and two veg in a pair of these?
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[quote=cinnamon_girl ]Interesting point emsz. What's the answer though?
[not answering for emsz here]
the answer is a world that grows up a bit. I can see the it's only a bit of fun argument in some ways and it would be except there is every chance it wasn't her idea and she went along with it. I linked the Charlotte Church - John Peel Lecture because it was the perspective of someone who had come through it. There is a solid line between finding someone attractive and objectifying them, expecting that they behave in a certain way due to how they look etc.
[i]they may well have chosen to act like that but it is not that great that they feel they have to sell records or attract men.[/i]
More like fat old record execs made the decision for them. 🙄
Like I said, stuff that girls think is OK has come from a flood of images ( films, pictures, music vids... Bike vids) that make it something it's almost impossible to resist
I'm not immune to it, I've an image of myself that is directed by society, even mainstream TV ads has told me I've got to have sculpted pubes FFS!!!
[quote=cinnamon_girl ]I think the point is that it's unlikely it was her idea.
Not necessarily! Does anyone know anything about her, ie is she looking for sponsorship?
If that is the case then it shows how broken things are.
More like fat old record execs made the decision for them
😐
Im guessing all the blokes that like the vid have the testicular fortitude to make their own video of themselves riding with a gopro angled on their meat and two veg in a pair of these?
Even if they did, the obvious difference is that even if they looked like the bloke in that pic (they don't - even I don't and I have the body of a god 8) ) not many women would be all that interested in watching the video.
do you have a solution?
Is it bromide that reduces male libido?
perhaps all the oestrogen in the water supply will reduce it?
I think you need strong women standing up and speaking out and also men rejecting it openly - really its more of an issue for emsz generation than mine , surely a lesbian speaking out on this you will be listened to by all the men emsz 😉 and 🙄 [ their attitude not yours]
It needs a campaign like the one against lads mags or a cabal of the young of both genders saying something about it and trying to change opinions. Currently it will be seen as normal as it is normal and it is everywhere.
Some of it is biology/nature so it will never be eradicated but it it is too OTT - FWIW I would include the Diet coke adds in this as well
It seems, sadly, that equality has , in many respects, meant women act liking the worst of male behaviour.
Its strange that , in many respects, equality has not exactly led to enlightenment and women are still the sex objects they once were in Miss World times. Nowadays we sell it as their choice as well as empowering - nice trick eh
ITT: Men telling women they cant go out dressed like that.
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[i]It needs a campaign like the one against lads mags or a cabal of the young of both genders saying something about it and trying to change opinions[/i]
But in the age of instagram/facebook/Twitter/selfies is there any changing it now its so prevalent?
It's interesting that you will see a lot of opposition to the burka, and comments on how women are 'brainwashed/forced/compelled' to wear veils, yet when young women are pressured into dressing in a sexually provocative manner, in order to get attention/a new record contract etc, it's 'empowering'.
🙄
Emsz I heard that one of the "positives" of porn was that teenage pregnancies were on the decline due to endings being replicated in the real world
I heard a joke to that effect too... 😕
mikewsmith -
the answer is a world that grows up a bit
+1
Coupled with getting rid of our angst and embarrassment at the human body. It's really rather pathetic (in the true sense of the word) that we are so hung up about and/or get excited by basic human parts.
Just let them hang out and be done with it - on both sides! The novelty would soon wear off!!
Exits to find naturist trail centre......And to read the saddle sores thread 😉
in the age of instagram/facebook/Twitter/selfies is there any changing it now its so prevalent
I dont know what most of that is as it never gets a mention on Radio 4 😉
Change is always possible
emsz - Memberit's like we're sucked into this weird Porn/ idealised/bitch fest where pointing a Gopro at your tits is apparently ok behaviour!!! How brainwashed do you need to be??
Considering that it's basically the most natural thing in the world, do you really need to be brainwashed? We are beautiful animals, it's natural to want to look and to want to be looked at. Is our status quo of repression better than a culture of permissiveness? Is it worse to take photos of your boobs than to be afraid to be seen? I wish I was more comfortable in my skin.
I don't think anything humans do is ever as simple as "it's because of porn". What is porn because of? To some extent the same things that make people want to look at nekkid people has got to be the same thing that makes people post on gw or dance at mardi gras or get their cocks out on chatroulette or whatever. If you told my ex that she was an exhibitionist and sub because of porn and men's desires she'd laugh at you- I know because people love to tell her.
Course I do not deny that there's a terrible side to it to. There generally is, most things done to extremes go very badly.
We are beautiful animals,
your stw group ride experience is very much different from mine.
[i]your stw group ride experience is very much different from mine. [/i]
😆
Another interesting thing, is that the woman in the video doesn't show her face at any point. If she'd so 'empowered' and confident etc, why not show her face?
Considering that it's basically the most natural thing in the world, do you really need to be brainwashed? We are beautiful animals, it's natural to want to look and to want to be looked at. Is our status quo of repression better than a culture of permissiveness? Is it worse to take photos of your boobs than to be afraid to be seen? I wish I was more comfortable in my skin.
Possibly the point where my sister in law had to explain to her 12/13 year old daughter what hookers were as that was what she was dressing like mostly due to the strong female influences being women on music who were trying to excite a male audience based on an industry run by male execs.
It's not a positive world out there, equality is not 50/50 on boards or men and women getting there stuff out in public, it's respecting people for being people and judging everyone on talent and skills not tits and ass.
Northwind, I understand what you mean, and yes I agree to a point. But repression and exploitation are the extremes on the normal and we need to be in the middle! Maybe our grandparents were too far one end, and now were too far along the other!
I'm not going to comment on your ex, were all different and what is ok and normal for one person would be wildly extreme for someone else. When I suggested Skinny dipping to my ex once, she was horrified!!! LOL
Emsz. I agree with you entirely. But also, theres the fact that it has now gone far beyond just a feminist issue
The situation as it stands with the normalisation of pornography, and its associated imagery is as damaging to young lads too. There 's a lot of evidence to show that repeated exposure to it means that they're becoming completely desensitised, and now think that pornography that would previously have been considered pretty damn extreme is a normal within relationships.
How the hell is anyone meant to form any kind of loving relationship, based on mutual respect and equality when some of the most degrading, and in some cases violent imagery is now considered par for the course?
And I'm sure the defenders of that frankly puerile video would bleat that theres no connection with extreme pornography. But to me its indicative of an attitude that dehumanises women, views them only as pieces of meat, and we're all worse off as result of it.
If you wanted to see something interesting, get on 4OD and watch the documentary Date My Porn Star, where 3 British lads, addicted to porn, were taken to LA and shown the yawning chasm between their rose-tinted idea of the 'industry', and the pretty damn depressing reality
And I don't have bloody Telegraph reading, victorian values about this kind of stuff. Its fine up to a point, but I think that some things have become so extreme that there's a new 'normal, and we're going backwards equality-wise
If you Google image search 'boy bands' and 'girl bands', it's very interesting what you get, in he context of this discussion:
The first thing we notice, is that there's an awful lot more flesh on show with the girls. Why is that?
Ok, so let's look at two current examples of popular boy and girl bands:
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What do we notice here?
What do we notice here?
The boys let some muppet do their hair and the women look like they are doing stop frame animation of the YMCA
that and one lot are wearing only underwear
emsz - MemberNorthwind, I understand what you mean, and yes I agree to a point. But repression and exploitation are the extremes on the normal and we need to be in the middle! Maybe our grandparents were too far one end, and now were too far along the other!
Pretty much exactly what I think. Though I don't think we're too far along at all- the extremes have got uglier but the middle ground is still full of people who're scared to be who they are. But I reckon it's wrong to see it all as a simple sliding scale, you don't go repression - liberation - exploitation, that's an ugly deviation not a result of the move from one to another. You can't stop exploitation by banning low necklines- you just create an extra thing to feel bad about. But the more people feel comfortable and confident in themselves, the less likely they are to be exploited. They might do the exact same things but they'll do it for their reasons- it's not the action that really counts but the motivation.
I suppose it's just that there's no lines in the sand, no simple rules. That's humans for you.
There's a documentary from a few years ago ([url= http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0322500/ ]Hardcore[/url]) where a British girl went over to LA to try and make it in porn, pretty horrible to watch what's normal in that world. It ends with the documentary crew basically rescuing her from being raped by the male 'star' as he and the porn crew try to bully and pressure her into doing stuff she really doesn't want to.
Surely the comparison of images there is unfair, one is a band who sing (apparently), the others are from a burlesque show originally?
I dont know who either band are but you are you really questioning the broad point hat female bands/artists are more overtly sexualised than male ones?
What do we notice here?
That you chose your pictures to back up your point ?
You can make (lots of money) without the need to be good singers, if you can sell something else?
Both cover their music ability (or otherwise) with using sex/titillation to sell records?
The male form is less appealing than the female one?
The one girls briefs a briefer than Tom Daley's! Wonder why he chose to wear extra skimpy budgies for the Olympics. Apparently they were made especially skimpy for him......now, there's a thought!