You mean the 3 time World, 2 time Olympic Champion team pursuit rider who has been winning on the road across two disciplines since 2003
Sorry, my point about G was that, when he first appeared at the Tour, he was a fat no-hoper, he's said so much himself. But with hard training and experience came the improvements that led to his subsequent successes (in all disciplines). The very same could be said of Froome, there's no reason to draw conclusions of doping just because someone wasn't very good at the start of their career and then got better.
My intention was to criticise the post, not G.
Although they both still have dubious bike handling skills 🙂
G is my favourite rider. I think his biggest strength is his ability to endure pain. He's also very loyal and a team player. A true roll model. Or at least I hope he is! It's cycling, you can never be sure!
The 2nd fastest sprinter still in the tour is probably his lead out.
Its great to see Cav winning but its a bit Alan Wells 1980 Olympics
Cav can only beat who is in the race. The 1980's Olympics was a US led boycott against the USSR; Doesn't really compare does it.
He's beaten Sagan, Demare, Matthews, Ewan, Bouhanni, Cobrelli, WvA, Merlier, Philipsen etc etc. Who else should he be sprinting against?
It’s true - regardless of whose in the Tour currently (re sprinters) Cav has at some point in the last decade beaten them all..
Yeah but Mercx 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I'll take your Merckx, and raise you a Freddy Maertens.
How about Cav vs Maertens, Abdoujaporov, Zabel and Cipollini?
He’s beaten Sagan, Demare, Matthews, Ewan, Bouhanni, Cobrelli, WvA, Merlier, Philipsen etc etc. Who else should he be sprinting against?
Fair point but beating Bouhanni is hardly a red flag for doping. Lol.
You could argue the Tour or Turkey had sprint field of similar depth.
The UCI banned glucose monitoring last month – https://www.bikeradar.com/news/uci-bans-supersapiens/
I didn't know that. Thanks. Kind of screws their business model.
I think they are only banned in competition not in training etc. The business model now seems to focus on World Tour teams using them during training to better understand what the body is doing and rethink how to fuel. In some ways the ban has given them some extra publicity
In some ways the ban has given them some extra publicity
Yep, thanks to the ban, now coming to a Sunday club ride near you.
bells were ringing in the first week.
they continue to ring, particularly when the yellow jersey attacks himself off the front on an HC steep section, just for shits and giggles
Sorry, but that finish once again looked dodgy as hell. I never wish injury on people but I'd like him to have crash on that final TT that does very little harm but loses him yellow.
Well, he certainly made it look easy. Barely blowing in fact..
it looked just like it does when my mate goes past me on the unrestricted e-mtb.....
particularly when the yellow jersey attacks himself off the front on an HC steep section, just for shits and giggles
For the gajillionth time, he tried to distance the other two (an why wouldn't he, he's a racer, he's young, if he'd just marked them everyone would say he was boring) and couldn't, after they'd all been attacking each other. It's not like he just upped and rode off, he got across the line one second ahead
Anyway, stay classy, lunge, stay classy
now coming to a Sunday club ride near you.
Do they measure blood - tea concentrations as well then?
Do they measure blood – tea concentrations as well then?
Now you mention it, I have never been on a club run where someone had a tea at the cafe stop! Always coffee or coke (and hookers).
Yep, if it walks like a duck etc.
I don’t think he’s the only one.
Colbreli as has been mentioned, out
climbing decent climbers.
I don’t know what’s happening in the Peloton at the moment, but something smells a bit off.
Not in this race, but Mark Padun had interesting results this year.
Anyway, stay classy, lunge, stay classy
Wanting someone who looks very suspicious to not win? As I said, I wish him no harm so perhaps should have written "has a horrible mechanical and bike change", but the sentiment still remains.
Given what we know my suspicion is many of the riders are riding outwith the spirit of the rules but keeping under detectable thresholds / just about within the letter of the rules
the days of blatent doping are over but its still there.
Just an opinion
For the gajillionth time
exactly, every day..... it looks like a duck, i hope its not, but.... quack!
has a horrible mechanical and bike change
Camera pans to Pogačar coming over the final rise of the TT course, glasses off, helmet askew on his head, a shell of his former self. Walks over to Vingegaard, pats him on the back and exits stage left.
exactly, every day….. it looks like a duck, i hope its not, but…. quack!
I think you misunderstand my point - you're making out that he's streets ahead of the others, and that raises suspicion of doping, but he's not. He only just got away from them yesterday, and his overall lead is mainly down to their bad luck and/or poor tactics and his TT time (so a TdF winner is an excellent TT rider, wotta shocka).
By the 'for the gajillionth time' I meant "I've tried to make this point loads on this thread". I'm not going to bother trying any more 🙂
TBH it isn’t just his performance for me. My gut feeling is that his demeanour when he is being interviewed just doesn’t quite sit right. Highly subjective I know & I hope I am wrong, but I do think even the most accomplished liars find it difficult to maintain the facade completely. Let’s face it, Lance’s ‘I’m the most tested athlete in the world’ shtick isn’t actually an outright denial. I’m afraid Pog gives off the same vibe.
This for me. Pog has said "I've been tested a lot" and "I was brought up a good boy" but not "I'm not cheating" which seems to be the proper way of putting this to bed if I was him (and clean).
That was two very impressive days up the mountains.
Given what we know my suspicion is many of the riders are riding outwith the spirit of the rules but keeping under detectable thresholds / just about within the letter of the rules
the days of blatent doping are over but its still there.
Just an opinion
Indeed.
Blowing other riders away too would quickly raise suspicion. These days it’s more subtle. For me with Pog it’s that the other 2 are so clearly on the limit - he just effortlessly kicks & rides away from them..
I don’t know what’s happening in the Peloton at the moment, but something smells a bit off.
Well, the Gendarmerie raided the Bahrain Victorious hotel this morning, so they obviously share your suspicions. Who knows.
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/police-raid-bahrain-victorious-hotel-at-tour-de-france/
Too long to read all that.
You have to have doubts about many of them, including Wiggins and Froome.
Wiggo has been out of the game for years and Froome should get a refund if he's doping.
Wiggo has been out of the game for years and Froome should get a refund if he’s doping.
I'm not talking about Froome now, but when he was at Sky.
Plenty of incriminating stuff, around Sky now.
If Armstrong can dope all his career, and not get caught once - you don't know who you can trust.
Based on his performance last time out and the rest of his season the thing that's startling to me is he's only putting a second or two into the other two here. He should be kicking lumps out of them and he's not.
It could be that its worked out brilliantly for Tokyo by having a diminished gc this year so he's able to save himself a bit more to go for gold but it just doesn't feel right. If that were it you'd think he'd sail over happily with the other two but not be sprinting for first and as has been said, attacking his own yellow. To me there's something off about his under performance, like he's something to hide. It's a shame that off the legacy of openness* about drugs in the sport its difficult to look at his performance and not ask questions.
That being said I'm less bothered about the impact of PEDs in the GC than TTs on the same. At least being juiced alone can't win you a three week race on day 1.
*I doubt cycling is anything like as dirty as it looks compared with many other sports, if it's the worst of the bunch I'd be amazed but that it's so much worse I find difficult to believe.
Strangely Froome to me is less of a red flag. His victories tended to be hard fought. He had a strong team without doubt, but the riders against him were all able to put him under pressure. Then again the fog of time may have muddled my memory.
Wiggins I’d agree with though.
But I do think some of the performances are repeating to what we have seen in previous years.
Back to the OP. I like this from Tom D last year, talking about the final stage of the TDF, his power data was very similar to 2017 World Championship winning level : "My values were World Championship-worthy values. That's great to see," he said. "That's why I was all the more surprised that Pogačar was 1:21 faster.
This is quite a good read where that quote came from: https://www.bicycling.com/tour-de-france/a34252569/tadej-pogacar-tour-de-france-win-unfair-doubt/
Sorry, but that finish once again looked dodgy as hell.
In what way?
Well, he certainly made it look easy. Barely blowing in fact..
He looked pretty knackered when Seb interviewed him afterwards. I think he worked quite hard for that one.
With all this talk of Pogacar being juiced to the gills, is there no suspicion around Vingegaard? Or is it just the good old British adage that he's essentially won so he must've cheated his way there?
Irrespective of the actual situation, absolutely no comparison can be drawn to the Texan, he was plain and simply a nasty piece of work who would sacrifice literally anyone and anything to win. No one seems to give a shit that Mercx doped his way through his career, Tom Simpson died due a combination of amphetamines and alcohol on a ridiculously hot day and Big Mig was so clearly juiced to the max it was laughable.
That's not my point at all.
My point is, you can get away with it for a decade, as has been done.
If you can get away with it, then who's to know who would do it, and who wouldn't.
Are altitude tents cheating? Borderline, as only a few have access to such things.
Micro doses that don't ever get detected.
My point is, it's pretty hard to 100% trust anyone - not just Pogacar.
I was once very, very confident, there was none of it in Team Sky. Now I'm not.
Does Pog look dodgy? Yes.
Is he actually doping?
- Hmmm there have been questions around Slovenian cycling (and skiers) for some time.
- UAE management have a history that isn’t entirely lily white. But so do plenty of others in cycling (personally I’m a fan of Alan Peiper)
- Pogs performance is good, but is it that good? Perhaps not quite as good as it looks. The only team to race as a team consistently has been DQS.
Pog is a wheel sucker (sadly not me - think it was Cycling Podcast) who can time trial. Ineos’ tactics have been shambolic and lacked imagination, crashes have weakened the field. He’s undoubtedly good. And I like him. And given all the scrutiny he is under if he’s doping then I’m well impressed (with his ability to hide it).
Many of the older pros I’ve heard interviewed have remarked on the intensity and chaos in the peloton in the last year. That requires a skill to navigate and not get stressed by. That’s really where Pogs strength lies I think.
No one seems to give a shit that Mercx doped his way through his career,
Totally agree that the cycling media deify unconditionally.
This is also the reason Mark Cavendish is the undisputed TDF stage winner - he’s no doper.
Pog is a wheel sucker (sadly not me – think it was Cycling Podcast) who can time trial. Ineos’ tactics have been shambolic and lacked imagination
And those tactics play right into his hands, he's stronger than all their riders across the disciplines, so he just hangs with them and attacks when needs be.
Always good to see a climber do well in LBL as well.
Interesting that both Rog and Pog targeted that race. Must be one for pure climbers. Just don’t tell Jacob Fugslang, Simon Gerrans or Bob Jungels.
Sorry? Pog and Rog are both GC riders with strong TTs, not pure climbers. Or have I misunderstood you?
Pog is a wheelsucker? He might be many things but I don't think you can level that at him. Was it his attack 30km out on the Grand Bornard stage that led you to that conclusion or the way he dragged Carapaz and Vingegaard up the hill yesterday?
Personally, the way he's riding nearly three weeks into a brutal TfF, riding so fluidly in the big ring and breathing though his nose is a massive red flag. I do think he's canny enough to not make it so obvious unlike say, Ricardo Ricco or good ole Chris Horner.
Was it his attack 30km out on the Grand Bornard stage that led you to that conclusion or the way he dragged Carapaz and Vingegaard up the hill yesterday?
His tactic last year was sit in the wheels until the last. Basically he’s done the same again this year until there was no one left to play with/ his time gap was so big he could go for the win. Listen I’m not saying it’s wrong, just that he’s an opportunistic rider whose got lucky this year. And yeah he’s strong but not that much stronger (this started with is he doping!) but he is calm and very calculated.
UAE don’t work. Have you seen them at the front for more than a few minutes? Again, I’m not suggesting they don’t want to, they just can’t keep it together.
His tactic last year was sit in the wheels until the last
Roglic was leading the TdF last year so the onus was firmly on Jumbo to set the pace. Pog did his big attack to win in the TT rather than on a mountain climb.
I'm not insisting that I know he's clean, but I'd want to see him effortlessly dropping Roglic & Bernal (when they are in top form) on the climbs and smashing Ganna in the TT before I'd get sceptical.
It's too simplistic to imply (as some have above) that just because someone's on another level to the riders who show up, that they must be cheating.
I think that there's massive grey areas around what's doping and what's 'legal' and I think that's where sky got a lot of their marginal gains. I don't think Wiggins and Froome are dopers, but they probably pushed the boundaries as far as possible. Which is why they can't pin anything on them.
Some of their practices, would probably be called dubious but just within the laws, I just think that lots of team have caught up with them now.
Team GB are probably in the same bracket as well. Technology and knowing how to just stay within the rules...
Same as anything really, if the rules/laws allow things, people will push the boundaries to breaking point for success. Unfortunately the authorities are generally on the back foot.
I was reading this thread yesterday and agreed with the comments of a weakened field and god awful tactics from other teams, BUT, yesterday with the way he finished so aggressively and with what looked like a big effort, then you can see him chatting to his team and stood over his bike almost fine when other riders are coming over the line in bits!
Not Pog - but Bahrain. French prosecutor opens preliminary investigation:
