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Cav is marginally beating second string sprinters with the aid of the best team. Looks believable to me.
Pog looks mildly suspicious. As others have said it would have been closer if fit Bernal and/or Roglic were there.
Valverde is juiced to the eyeballs given some of his recent performances.
They’ve not released their research for peer review so would take it with a pinch of salt – pardon the pun!
I am guessing he makes up one of the riders in this dataset published by Iñigo San-Millán ( http://www.uaeteamemirates.com/rider/inigo-san-millan/), but due to medical ethics it wouldn't be revealed: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2020.00578/full
(Open access journal - not behind an academic paywall)
I can't comment on this at all - it is well outside my geoscience expertise!!
After the finish yesterday, Pog was lying on the ground blowing out his arse like a good ‘un, he lay there for a good 4-5 minutes still puffing away. He took longer to recover than I expected.
I don’t recall seeing indurain or many others doing that for an *extended* period of time like that, which makes me think he was pushing to the max.
Well yeah, try sprinting flat out uphill at over 2000m some time. Again just because someone takes time to recover from a maximal effort at altitude doesn't really prove anything either way. I'm sure you can find footage of Armstrong similarly blitzed.
Cav is cleaning up because he has by far the best lead-out train
Yep, being on DQS generally seems to increase riders' chance of winning. And it's probably not because they're slipping steroids in the mayonnaise.
He only just won the stage and how you look on the bike doesn't correlate with how you're feeling. Quite often the commentators will mention how strong a rider is looking (based on not grimacing) and then they drop off the group a few minutes later.
Pogacar looked exhausted at the end of the stage, it looked like he went just as hard as everyone else but he just keeps a calm face and has a smooth pedaling style (which Carapaz doesn't)
Doing a pubmed search for Inigo San Millan (the Colorado chap) is interesting. All about assessment of metabolic flexibility in endurance athletes, mitochondrial energetics and lactate in disease (esp cancer and diabetes) and post ICU syndrome. So I wonder if they are applying interventions and training plans which have an effect in restoring function post disease to endurance athletes to increase mitochondrial efficiency.
Pure speculation but his research is an interesting read when trying to understand why he is involved…
Like a few have already said Colbrelli is the outlier in this TdF. He’s competing sprints one day then dropping pure climbers in the mountains the next.
He’s a sprinter who can just about manage top tens in the one day classics then this?? Not natural.
There’s no comparison between him, Pogacar & Cav’; Pog’ & Cav’ have been winners from very early in their careers & amongst their respective competition peer groups. Cav’s is a slightly odd one but when you watch his performances from the last few years, he was nearly always up there, but seemed to lack the “bottle” to hold his line or push through - he backed out of countless sprints. This isn’t that surprising given how many crashes he’s suffered that have curtailed his season, but only watching it illustrates that he’s always physically been there - the results sheets shows him in a lowly position (having freewheeled over the line).
The big difference is that he now seems to have regained his self-belief & confidence of old; this coupled with a depleted sprint field. This screams that it’s not particularly a physical phenomenon but strikingly mental. He’s said it himself a few times that he has the current world champion, classics winners and arguably the top lead out man all sacrificing their own ambitions to support him and drag him over the mountains to the finish. Who else has that support?
Cav is marginally beating second string sprinters with the aid of the best team. Looks believable to me.
The 2nd fastest sprinter still in the tour is probably his lead out.
Its great to see Cav winning but its a bit Alan Wells 1980 Olympics
Froome G went from being a fat no hoper with dubious bike handling skills to an ultra slim GT winner with dubious bike handling skills, so probably a more valid question when it’s aimed at him.
Still stand by that?
You mean the 3 time World, 2 time Olympic Champion team pursuit rider who has been winning on the road across two disciplines since 2003
Personally in pretty much all professional sports i'd be surprised at coming across someone who wasn't on some kind of performance enhancer. Cycling is no difference. For evidence look at this:
Nearly 60% admitted to doping when asked anonymously - that must be the absolute bare minimum percentage, as there are doubtless plenty who were sceptical of an anonymous doping survey run by WADA (personally if I were a pro athlete there is zero chance of me answering that question honestly).
That said, I like Pog and i'm enjoying the tour this year.
You mean the 3 time World, 2 time Olympic Champion team pursuit rider who has been winning on the road across two disciplines since 2003
Sorry, my point about G was that, when he first appeared at the Tour, he was a fat no-hoper, he's said so much himself. But with hard training and experience came the improvements that led to his subsequent successes (in all disciplines). The very same could be said of Froome, there's no reason to draw conclusions of doping just because someone wasn't very good at the start of their career and then got better.
My intention was to criticise the post, not G.
Although they both still have dubious bike handling skills 🙂
G is my favourite rider. I think his biggest strength is his ability to endure pain. He's also very loyal and a team player. A true roll model. Or at least I hope he is! It's cycling, you can never be sure!
The 2nd fastest sprinter still in the tour is probably his lead out.
Its great to see Cav winning but its a bit Alan Wells 1980 Olympics
Cav can only beat who is in the race. The 1980's Olympics was a US led boycott against the USSR; Doesn't really compare does it.
He's beaten Sagan, Demare, Matthews, Ewan, Bouhanni, Cobrelli, WvA, Merlier, Philipsen etc etc. Who else should he be sprinting against?
It’s true - regardless of whose in the Tour currently (re sprinters) Cav has at some point in the last decade beaten them all..
Yeah but Mercx 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I'll take your Merckx, and raise you a Freddy Maertens.
How about Cav vs Maertens, Abdoujaporov, Zabel and Cipollini?
He’s beaten Sagan, Demare, Matthews, Ewan, Bouhanni, Cobrelli, WvA, Merlier, Philipsen etc etc. Who else should he be sprinting against?
Fair point but beating Bouhanni is hardly a red flag for doping. Lol.
You could argue the Tour or Turkey had sprint field of similar depth.
The UCI banned glucose monitoring last month – https://www.bikeradar.com/news/uci-bans-supersapiens/
I didn't know that. Thanks. Kind of screws their business model.
I think they are only banned in competition not in training etc. The business model now seems to focus on World Tour teams using them during training to better understand what the body is doing and rethink how to fuel. In some ways the ban has given them some extra publicity
In some ways the ban has given them some extra publicity
Yep, thanks to the ban, now coming to a Sunday club ride near you.
bells were ringing in the first week.
they continue to ring, particularly when the yellow jersey attacks himself off the front on an HC steep section, just for shits and giggles
Sorry, but that finish once again looked dodgy as hell. I never wish injury on people but I'd like him to have crash on that final TT that does very little harm but loses him yellow.
Well, he certainly made it look easy. Barely blowing in fact..
it looked just like it does when my mate goes past me on the unrestricted e-mtb.....
particularly when the yellow jersey attacks himself off the front on an HC steep section, just for shits and giggles
For the gajillionth time, he tried to distance the other two (an why wouldn't he, he's a racer, he's young, if he'd just marked them everyone would say he was boring) and couldn't, after they'd all been attacking each other. It's not like he just upped and rode off, he got across the line one second ahead
Anyway, stay classy, lunge, stay classy
now coming to a Sunday club ride near you.
Do they measure blood - tea concentrations as well then?
Do they measure blood – tea concentrations as well then?
Now you mention it, I have never been on a club run where someone had a tea at the cafe stop! Always coffee or coke (and hookers).
Yep, if it walks like a duck etc.
I don’t think he’s the only one.
Colbreli as has been mentioned, out
climbing decent climbers.
I don’t know what’s happening in the Peloton at the moment, but something smells a bit off.
Not in this race, but Mark Padun had interesting results this year.
Anyway, stay classy, lunge, stay classy
Wanting someone who looks very suspicious to not win? As I said, I wish him no harm so perhaps should have written "has a horrible mechanical and bike change", but the sentiment still remains.
Given what we know my suspicion is many of the riders are riding outwith the spirit of the rules but keeping under detectable thresholds / just about within the letter of the rules
the days of blatent doping are over but its still there.
Just an opinion
For the gajillionth time
exactly, every day..... it looks like a duck, i hope its not, but.... quack!
has a horrible mechanical and bike change
Camera pans to Pogačar coming over the final rise of the TT course, glasses off, helmet askew on his head, a shell of his former self. Walks over to Vingegaard, pats him on the back and exits stage left.
exactly, every day….. it looks like a duck, i hope its not, but…. quack!
I think you misunderstand my point - you're making out that he's streets ahead of the others, and that raises suspicion of doping, but he's not. He only just got away from them yesterday, and his overall lead is mainly down to their bad luck and/or poor tactics and his TT time (so a TdF winner is an excellent TT rider, wotta shocka).
By the 'for the gajillionth time' I meant "I've tried to make this point loads on this thread". I'm not going to bother trying any more 🙂
TBH it isn’t just his performance for me. My gut feeling is that his demeanour when he is being interviewed just doesn’t quite sit right. Highly subjective I know & I hope I am wrong, but I do think even the most accomplished liars find it difficult to maintain the facade completely. Let’s face it, Lance’s ‘I’m the most tested athlete in the world’ shtick isn’t actually an outright denial. I’m afraid Pog gives off the same vibe.
This for me. Pog has said "I've been tested a lot" and "I was brought up a good boy" but not "I'm not cheating" which seems to be the proper way of putting this to bed if I was him (and clean).
That was two very impressive days up the mountains.
Given what we know my suspicion is many of the riders are riding outwith the spirit of the rules but keeping under detectable thresholds / just about within the letter of the rules
the days of blatent doping are over but its still there.
Just an opinion
Indeed.
Blowing other riders away too would quickly raise suspicion. These days it’s more subtle. For me with Pog it’s that the other 2 are so clearly on the limit - he just effortlessly kicks & rides away from them..
I don’t know what’s happening in the Peloton at the moment, but something smells a bit off.
Well, the Gendarmerie raided the Bahrain Victorious hotel this morning, so they obviously share your suspicions. Who knows.
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/police-raid-bahrain-victorious-hotel-at-tour-de-france/
Too long to read all that.
You have to have doubts about many of them, including Wiggins and Froome.
Wiggo has been out of the game for years and Froome should get a refund if he's doping.
Wiggo has been out of the game for years and Froome should get a refund if he’s doping.
I'm not talking about Froome now, but when he was at Sky.
Plenty of incriminating stuff, around Sky now.
If Armstrong can dope all his career, and not get caught once - you don't know who you can trust.
Based on his performance last time out and the rest of his season the thing that's startling to me is he's only putting a second or two into the other two here. He should be kicking lumps out of them and he's not.
It could be that its worked out brilliantly for Tokyo by having a diminished gc this year so he's able to save himself a bit more to go for gold but it just doesn't feel right. If that were it you'd think he'd sail over happily with the other two but not be sprinting for first and as has been said, attacking his own yellow. To me there's something off about his under performance, like he's something to hide. It's a shame that off the legacy of openness* about drugs in the sport its difficult to look at his performance and not ask questions.
That being said I'm less bothered about the impact of PEDs in the GC than TTs on the same. At least being juiced alone can't win you a three week race on day 1.
*I doubt cycling is anything like as dirty as it looks compared with many other sports, if it's the worst of the bunch I'd be amazed but that it's so much worse I find difficult to believe.
Strangely Froome to me is less of a red flag. His victories tended to be hard fought. He had a strong team without doubt, but the riders against him were all able to put him under pressure. Then again the fog of time may have muddled my memory.
Wiggins I’d agree with though.
But I do think some of the performances are repeating to what we have seen in previous years.
Back to the OP. I like this from Tom D last year, talking about the final stage of the TDF, his power data was very similar to 2017 World Championship winning level : "My values were World Championship-worthy values. That's great to see," he said. "That's why I was all the more surprised that Pogačar was 1:21 faster.
This is quite a good read where that quote came from: https://www.bicycling.com/tour-de-france/a34252569/tadej-pogacar-tour-de-france-win-unfair-doubt/
Sorry, but that finish once again looked dodgy as hell.
In what way?
Well, he certainly made it look easy. Barely blowing in fact..
He looked pretty knackered when Seb interviewed him afterwards. I think he worked quite hard for that one.
With all this talk of Pogacar being juiced to the gills, is there no suspicion around Vingegaard? Or is it just the good old British adage that he's essentially won so he must've cheated his way there?
Irrespective of the actual situation, absolutely no comparison can be drawn to the Texan, he was plain and simply a nasty piece of work who would sacrifice literally anyone and anything to win. No one seems to give a shit that Mercx doped his way through his career, Tom Simpson died due a combination of amphetamines and alcohol on a ridiculously hot day and Big Mig was so clearly juiced to the max it was laughable.
That's not my point at all.
My point is, you can get away with it for a decade, as has been done.
If you can get away with it, then who's to know who would do it, and who wouldn't.
Are altitude tents cheating? Borderline, as only a few have access to such things.
Micro doses that don't ever get detected.
My point is, it's pretty hard to 100% trust anyone - not just Pogacar.
I was once very, very confident, there was none of it in Team Sky. Now I'm not.
Does Pog look dodgy? Yes.
Is he actually doping?
- Hmmm there have been questions around Slovenian cycling (and skiers) for some time.
- UAE management have a history that isn’t entirely lily white. But so do plenty of others in cycling (personally I’m a fan of Alan Peiper)
- Pogs performance is good, but is it that good? Perhaps not quite as good as it looks. The only team to race as a team consistently has been DQS.
Pog is a wheel sucker (sadly not me - think it was Cycling Podcast) who can time trial. Ineos’ tactics have been shambolic and lacked imagination, crashes have weakened the field. He’s undoubtedly good. And I like him. And given all the scrutiny he is under if he’s doping then I’m well impressed (with his ability to hide it).
Many of the older pros I’ve heard interviewed have remarked on the intensity and chaos in the peloton in the last year. That requires a skill to navigate and not get stressed by. That’s really where Pogs strength lies I think.
No one seems to give a shit that Mercx doped his way through his career,
Totally agree that the cycling media deify unconditionally.
This is also the reason Mark Cavendish is the undisputed TDF stage winner - he’s no doper.
Pog is a wheel sucker (sadly not me – think it was Cycling Podcast) who can time trial. Ineos’ tactics have been shambolic and lacked imagination
And those tactics play right into his hands, he's stronger than all their riders across the disciplines, so he just hangs with them and attacks when needs be.
Always good to see a climber do well in LBL as well.
Interesting that both Rog and Pog targeted that race. Must be one for pure climbers. Just don’t tell Jacob Fugslang, Simon Gerrans or Bob Jungels.
Sorry? Pog and Rog are both GC riders with strong TTs, not pure climbers. Or have I misunderstood you?
Pog is a wheelsucker? He might be many things but I don't think you can level that at him. Was it his attack 30km out on the Grand Bornard stage that led you to that conclusion or the way he dragged Carapaz and Vingegaard up the hill yesterday?
Personally, the way he's riding nearly three weeks into a brutal TfF, riding so fluidly in the big ring and breathing though his nose is a massive red flag. I do think he's canny enough to not make it so obvious unlike say, Ricardo Ricco or good ole Chris Horner.
Was it his attack 30km out on the Grand Bornard stage that led you to that conclusion or the way he dragged Carapaz and Vingegaard up the hill yesterday?
His tactic last year was sit in the wheels until the last. Basically he’s done the same again this year until there was no one left to play with/ his time gap was so big he could go for the win. Listen I’m not saying it’s wrong, just that he’s an opportunistic rider whose got lucky this year. And yeah he’s strong but not that much stronger (this started with is he doping!) but he is calm and very calculated.
UAE don’t work. Have you seen them at the front for more than a few minutes? Again, I’m not suggesting they don’t want to, they just can’t keep it together.
His tactic last year was sit in the wheels until the last
Roglic was leading the TdF last year so the onus was firmly on Jumbo to set the pace. Pog did his big attack to win in the TT rather than on a mountain climb.
I'm not insisting that I know he's clean, but I'd want to see him effortlessly dropping Roglic & Bernal (when they are in top form) on the climbs and smashing Ganna in the TT before I'd get sceptical.
It's too simplistic to imply (as some have above) that just because someone's on another level to the riders who show up, that they must be cheating.
I think that there's massive grey areas around what's doping and what's 'legal' and I think that's where sky got a lot of their marginal gains. I don't think Wiggins and Froome are dopers, but they probably pushed the boundaries as far as possible. Which is why they can't pin anything on them.
Some of their practices, would probably be called dubious but just within the laws, I just think that lots of team have caught up with them now.
Team GB are probably in the same bracket as well. Technology and knowing how to just stay within the rules...
Same as anything really, if the rules/laws allow things, people will push the boundaries to breaking point for success. Unfortunately the authorities are generally on the back foot.
I was reading this thread yesterday and agreed with the comments of a weakened field and god awful tactics from other teams, BUT, yesterday with the way he finished so aggressively and with what looked like a big effort, then you can see him chatting to his team and stood over his bike almost fine when other riders are coming over the line in bits!
Not Pog - but Bahrain. French prosecutor opens preliminary investigation:
Any info on what they might have actually found yet?
None that I’m aware of. My gut feeling is it will be something fairly new if indeed anything. Doping controls are far better than they used to be & doping at the Tour? I think you’d have to be very naive or very confident….
mrlebowski
None that I’m aware of. My gut feeling is it will be something fairly new if indeed anything. Doping controls are far better than they used to be & doping at the Tour? I think you’d have to be very naive or very confident
Doping control have improved, but you think doping hasn't? Who's being naive?
I’m bracing for another doping scandal 🙁
If they are juiced what does it say about everyone else !!
Doping control have improved, but you think doping hasn’t? Who’s being naive?
The inference that doping had improved is here:
I think you’d have to be very naive or very confident….
Or was I too subtle?
Indeed.
Blowing other riders away too would quickly raise suspicion. These days it’s more subtle. For me with Pog it’s that the other 2 are so clearly on the limit – he just effortlessly kicks & rides away from them..
Oh & here.
I still think the dopers are ahead, however controls have improved. That’s quite clear. ABP has helped but is flawed:
https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/biological-passport-have-dopers-found-ways-to-beat-it/
I'm a bit bored with this 'ineos's tactics are shit' argument. It's also just dumb and wrong. If you only have one leader that is in any distance of GC contention, you cannot effectively gut another GC leader unless your own GC leader is heads above fitter, or the terrain and weather allows your team effort to do (crosswinds).
You have to force him to chase attacks whilst your leader rests. The only reason pog would chase an attack is if the attacker could threaten his gc. All of ineos's GC riders save caparaz crashed and lost so much time that they aren't convincing. If G goes up the road, pogacar doesn't give a crap. They didn't crash because of shit tactics, and they can't get back on.
All ineos (or any other team) can do without multiple people in the top ten is to press hard on the front to shell competitors for the podium who have better it's than carapaz or give up and try and take stage wins (exactly what they did to Uran). They want a podium over this. Their strategy is correct.
To dope these days you need the local anti doping authorities to be complicit, either by being able to buy them off or from "National Pride". Russia, Jamaica, Ethiopia spring to mind but are the Slovenia's doing similar ?
All ineos (or any other team) can do without multiple people in the top ten is to press hard on the front to shell competitors for the podium who have better it’s than carapaz or give up and try and take stage wins (exactly what they did to Uran). They want a podium over this. Their strategy is correct.
I agree. Carapaz has been battling to get on the podium.
Having watched a Slovenian, Mohoric, just power away from the field for a second time, timetrialling in the smallest cog, Pogacar just dances up the hills, and Roglic hid away from open competition in the run up to TdF, the very cynical would how one nation is all very strong in the run up to an Olympics as opposed to perhaps a single team?
Slovenia (population just>2m and slightly bigger than Northern Ireland) have done very well.
primoz after too many white lines
To dope these days you need the local anti doping authorities to be complicit, either by being able to buy them off or from “National Pride”. Russia, Jamaica, Ethiopia spring to mind but are the Slovenia’s doing similar ?
Icarus on Netflix gives an insight as to how that can happen IIRC - wasn’t a Russian anti-doping lab complicit?
Icarus on Netflix gives an insight as to how that can happen IIRC – wasn’t a Russian anti-doping lab complicit?
It's been well-known in the past that a lot of testers, faced with the prospect of testing a superstar athlete, will be so starstruck that they'll be a bit lax with procedures or allow the athlete some privacy to pee (the tester is supposed to watch the actual peeing into the bottle - the athlete has to be naked from chest to knee to ensure that there aren't any hidden syringes of urine).
Doesn't help that there are very few testers (even fewer female ones) so while there is supposed to be some degree of anonymity, in general it's the same tester turning up at the door each time so familiarity blunts the procedures as well. Instead of reading out the prepared script (and there is a script that has to be read out, word for word each time), the tester will simply be like "hey [athlete], sorry to bother you again" and the athlete will be like "oh hi John/Jane, how's things?"
I did anti-doping notification at the London Olympics (find the athlete, read them the prepared statement, stay with them until they came with you to the testing room). We were quite routinely monitored as well, there were people checking we were reading the statement properly and recording everything that happened. Things like getting a selfie or an autograph were absolutely forbidden - one person who'd signed up for anti-doping got binned off early in training because she was so excited at meeting all her heroes.
Most athletes were fine - they know the penalty for not complying - but some pushed it to the limit claiming not to speak English, waiting until the last possible moment, going through an elaborate warm-down routine and so on.
He's on the juice for sure!Having said that my wife insists I'm such a cynic that I don't believe I've taken a shit unless I weigh myself before and after.
To dope these days you need the local anti doping authorities to be complicit,
Not at all. Yo just need to be one step ahead of them and / or be clever
Went to a very interesting regulatory meeting a couple of years ago (I work in horse sport) where a presentation was given about biological passports (in people) and how they could be open to manipulation (metabolic creep with micro-dosing) and they are limited in what they measure being mainly based upon historic abuses (raising red cell mass etc). Testing has to be validated and defensible legally so will always lag behind, especially as understanding of endurance metabolism and routes to enhance it evolve.
So are there any clean sports or are all athletes at it?
Did anyone see that thing about Pogacar WRT Metabolomics? That was quite interesting. They inferred that his cells were genetically predisposed to efficiently produce energy during endurance events. Efficient conversions and rapid recovery even during use. His wheel hugging might be giving him more of a boost than it would to others…
inferred that his cells were genetically predisposed to efficiently produce energy
Could be smoke & mirrors- a conventional explanation to hide the truth, like Indurain had larger than average lungs.
I did see that "sciencey" bit and was left feeling a little bit like they were trying too hard. Maybe using a blind-with-science approach? I might be being totally unfair, but in my job I get quite a few people peddling stuff using big fancy words with little substance, so always have a skeptical view.
Humans are evolving, just look at the size of teenagers now a days, they’re bigger and stronger than the same lads 30 years ago
In truth, that's not evolution, it's epigenetic - diet, exercise and perhaps earlier identification of talent. Be under no illusions, if something is LEGAL, then every team will be trying to max out on it, ketones for example. But equally, you don't get to be in the pro peloton without decent genes. I'd be more wary regarding domestic cycling, Colombia is a good example.
As for testing, let's just say that some of these guys are tested multiple times a day in competition, and frequently out. the real debate should be what is detectable and under what circumstances and why. You may recall that a certain Mr Froome owes me a GT for this information 😉
As for youth and endurance, recovery time goes up with age, but so does just plain dogged determination. What if you develop that determination at 19?
Strangely Froome to me is less of a red flag
come the **** on now
In truth, that’s not evolution, it’s epigenetic – diet, exercise and perhaps earlier identification of talent.
The dutch are now the tallest nation on earth. Given their genetic similarity ( on average) to the germans and the british the suspicion is that its to do with high dairy intake and hormones in that milk. Not proven tho
the general increase in height may be partly genetics / evolution ( taller people have an advantage in the "finding a mate and breeding" lottery) but its also clearly in large part due to better diet.
I am the same height as my father but he clearly did not grow to his full potential in height ( his hands and feet are bigger, shoulders wider). But he grew up in a time and place when good food was scarce - i am sure if he grew up under the same conditions I did he would be a good few inches taller
https://www.cyclingnews.com/amp/news/mechanical-doping-claims-resurface-at-tour-de-france/
All very much rumours and supposition and guesswork...
Christ what a non story !!