[Closed] Peaks debut and Ebike first proper day out.

[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51182984625_724f89cef8_c.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51182984625_724f89cef8_c.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2kYSb9a ]peaks[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/152318156@N08/ ]Steve Weeks[/url], on Flickr

You've just cemented my thoughts after a very brief ride on one in Wharny - Good for sessioning a few downhill runs in a fixed amount of time but a potential liability on a proper day out. I'll be sticking with my proper bike until my retirement from the sport.
Thanks for the honest write up 👍

Nice loop taking in some of the classic bits of my backyard. You should try and avoid that first section past Ox Stones unless in drought conditions as your photo proves, it’s a bog most of the time and land owners are getting increasingly grumbly about it. We (local fell running club) used to have a race which used it and was banned due to land owner, I’d not want bikers to be the reason for it getting permanently fenced off or similar. It’s lovely in the dry though!

Mate, I've never been to the peaks, I just went where I was told. Even into rock formations!

Sounds like you enjoyed it. Pity about the weather.
Never had a problem with running out of battery.

1. It gives you the fear ! The fear of battery and losing it. In the last 2-3 miles i had 0 battery and had to drag this thing up a rock fest..

Be interested to hear what the distance and height gain were?
We were discussing the balance point beyond which an eeb isn't beneficial anymore. Given that you took it to zero battery it would be great to know how far/ high it was.

Given that you took it to zero battery it would be great to know how far/ high it was.

From that ride profile shot it looks like roughly 3300feet of climb over 35 km

I can get between 3000 and 6000 feet of climb over 20 to 35 miles out of mine, the difference is basically down to how fast I go, which in turn is down to the level of assist I use.

6000 feet, 35 miles at normal bike speeds.

3000 feet, 20 miles going at 2x normal bike speeds

Major U turn there. 😂
Distance and climbing wise did a ride on Tuesday avo that was 20 mile and nearly 1400 meters of climbing and still had 4 out of 10 bars left.
I recon I could get 30 miles/ 2000 meters out of it if I was careful.

Mate, I’ve never been to the peaks, I just went where I was told. Even into rock formations!

I know, wasn’t having a pop, just some local advice on where to avoid when it’s piss wet! If you enjoy the rocky stuff then definitely look at some of the trails on Blacka Moor like Devils Elbow, Piper House and stuff off Totley Moor too. Happy to send some suggestions next time you visit 👍

You just have to ride ebikes differently, they are heavy, they require a bit more to manoeuvre in a few circumstances, that's just due to the weight and balance, i find it weird if i have used the ebike for a few rides in a row, then use the hardtail and move about on that, it's so light you can end up overdoing everything as it feels like the bike weighs nothing.

Never really got the battery tension thing, ran out a couple of times but you get the warnings at 20/10/5% on most, so know when to turn back and when you will need to pedal a bit, on days like yesterday where it's wet and muddy, you know your range will be less, it's not just distance and elevation gained, it's conditions, bike setup and temperature that limit it as well.

Have to admit i much prefer my normal bike for pretty much most things, but an ebike is there to do a job, and for me, with a knackered body it helps do longer rides without the after effects, it allows me to enjoy what i do for more time, you just have to know what you enjoy about an ebike, and what you don't, then focus on the good stuff where possible.

Devils Elbow

Looking at Strava we did certainly some of that trail yesterday

so know when to turn back and when you will need to pedal a bit

Easy to say, hard when you're at the bottom of a mile long rocky hill and no concept of where you are. It's different when you're on home turf, but on an away day, well, I could have been anywhere. It so happened I was in a rock climb followed by knee deep mud fest lol

Looking at Strava we did certainly some of that trail yesterday

Looking at the screen shot, assuming you went clockwise then your description of the steep downhill followed by a steep climb (after a stream crossing with stepping stones) was Devils Elbow. Good isn’t it?! Local trail advocacy group Ride Sheffield do a lot of trail work there so we have them to thank.

I thought modern ebikes had a bit more range than that? Were you on turbo all the way around, or was it a hire with a knackered battery?

I hired a trek rail from biecs brenin a few weeks ago and did the beast, it wasn't a beast on that ebike.

Good, errrrm maybe lol. Some of the downs you're just trying to keep on the bike and not die, but yeah it's fun in a sadistic way.

The one thing yesterday did do was make me feel better about my new Bird frame. I was worried it may not be up for the gnar, but yesterday on a girls frame with rubbish tyres it still are up the stuff.

For info
500w battery
35.42km
802m elevation

I thought modern ebikes had a bit more range than that? Were you on turbo all the way around, or was it a hire with a knackered battery?

It's only a 500w.

I barely used turbo. Mostly in 2/5 with some 3/5

Isn't 500wh still pretty common and standard?

Isn’t 500wh still pretty common and standard?

I thought they were all 620w or so nowdays, certainly all the bikes I was out with were yesterday.

Another irritating thing was engine whine. It's a noisy bugger!

Argee sums it up perfectly for me.

No question I prefer how normal bikes ride, and if I had all the time in the world and my body never got knackered then i'd just ride normal bike, no ebike required.

However in the real world, ebikes are fantastic for squeezing more riding in. That's because
- you can get more miles in in the same time
- you can take different routes (which wouldn't be fun or would be infeasible on a normal bike
- you can do big rides day after day and still be fresh
- oh, and if you're out or the normal bike game for medical reasons (as I am at the moment) you might still be able to get out.

Biggest ever ride I did on mine was about 70km 1500m climbing. Almost all in eco but it was sub zero so affecting battery life. And I'm not light.

500w battery
35.42km
802m elevation

Many thanks. That seems very low, surprised by that.

Obviously it depends how much effort the user puts in. I'm guessing Weeksy put on a fair bit of effort as he normally pedals his bike, but perhaps equally you were buzzing and went for it up the hills to make the most of the novelty factor.

Hmmm, Wonder how long it'll take for the range to improve significantly...

I arranged yesterday’s ride for weeksy to join us, I’ve noted the comment about oxstones and will amend the route from now on. I’m local but more used to green lanes so planning routes from strava segments which isn’t always ideal. There was a bit of lost around longshaw which will get amended as well.
But the ebikes, it is possible to eek the miles out if we went as slow as a normal bike in places, the mud certainly sapped battery and the only normal bikes we saw on climbs were walking. I can only imagine on some climbs ther3s a very small percentage of normal riders able to make them. The same on the slow techy uphill rock bits a normal bike would have to carry in places.
But this isn’t what bike is best as they are both different, all the riders of the ebikes are fairly fit but none would want to do the same ride on their normal bikes it’s just not as much fun for us. That’s as simple as it gets. It was good to let weeksy see that an ebike in the right conditions can give a proper workout but you need to find those conditions if a workout is your reason to ride.

Happy to show you some other local trails @couchy instead of relying on Strava segments, there’s lots which whilst people ride it I’d not bother with personally!

Tuboflard that would be great some time, like the stuff by oxstones and down to devils elbow and then the rockier slow bits across curbar edge etc. But tbh anything that takes me up there I’m happy with as I love the place

Hmmm, Wonder how long it’ll take for the range to improve significantly…

Some already have...

No problem, PM me next time you fancy a spin and can arrange a meet up. I’m 25 mins pedal from Cannings bottom car park so can get out any day after work too.

I have a trek rail 5 with 625 watt battery and the only time I nearly flattened the battery was Glentress red and black which shows on strava as 43km with 1500 metres of climbing (power was tour on most of the way but put in eco for the last couple of km). Also agree with the OPs summary but I am doing bigger loops than I would on my normal bike (not so much time constrained with e bike).

Thanks for the great write up and views, makes interesting reading.
Like a lot now I suspect, I too am e-bike curious.

So far I have surmised that they allow for winch and drop type rides to be enjoyed a bit more, as they offer the suspension, wheels, tyres etc to cope with 'big' riding.

What I have to determine is - do they allow for more XC based riding to become more fun due to longer range of me and do they do so at the cost of taming the trail so it is just distance with no fun.

Suppose what I need is a 120mm travel FS ebike that rides like a 120mm normal bike. Probably the Levo SL or similar. Then I'll get drawn into a daft trail section and it won't cope, so pretty much like normal... lol

Tbh they do tame trails but that just means you search out harder trails. I was on my Bosch with a 625wh battery but I also have a light ebike with a 250w battery, an ezesty. It’s a halfway bike between the two and wouldn’t have made yesterday’s ride at the pace we went. It would though have been quicker than a normal bike. We answered weeksys question of whether they give a work out and that’s a yes, but you need to ride further or faster to achieve that.
It was very interesting seeing someone who is fit and loves his normal bike having fun and trying on an ebike. It did prove an ebike doesn’t do it for you, certainly if riding with other ebikes.

What I have to determine is – do they allow for more XC based riding to become more fun due to longer range of me and do they do so at the cost of taming the trail so it is just distance with no fun.

Having done a local xc ride now and peaks on it I'm 100% sure I don't want or need an ebike for Berkshire rides, it's not for me. I enjoy the silence, tranquility and just pleasure of riding and I'm yet to get that in the rides I've done.

The bike is now clean and lubed, I've fitted a specialized butcher grid 2.3 replacing the 2.65 trail boss that was on it. I've got a 2.3 Goma on the back end which is ok but I may get another Butcher. It'll now go away until June when the lads have a bike park Wales non uplift day planned and I'll take it for the morning and do a couple of afternoon runs on the bird too

The power use/range must be very different between a dry surface and a mud fest ... makes personal comparisons pretty difficult to interpret.

Great part of the world to ride - lucky to get a guided tour 🙂

Yeah as you can see by the bike standing up in its own, at times it was bonkers muddy.
Range I thought was going well as I'd just crossed into 2 dots left after the cafe stop, I was told we only had a couple of miles, but I think we detoured and we had 2 big ups which seemed to wipe the battery out as I was using 3/5 to get up. Next thing I looked and I had a red dot instead of a white one, which I'm guessing isn't ideal lol. I then nursed it, dragged it and manual pedalled a few KM

Range is hugely variable and affected by every factor you can think of. I find the main two are pace and elevation.

Best I managed on my old 500Wh (actually 482Wh) Bosch and Gen 2 motor was 28 miles and 4.5K feet of climbing when riding with the local cycle club, all on normal bikes, so a fairly slow pace. I still had 1 bar (of 5) remaining at the end. Ridden almost entirely in Eco apart from the last climb when my gammy knee started hurting.
Worst was 9.9 miles and 5K feet of climbing in just over an hour when riding flat out in Turbo on my own, sessioning DH trails at FoD.

On my 625Wh Gen 4 (which is definitely more efficient than the older Gen 2) I'm using about 50% battery on the club rides. Riding solo or with other eBikers good conditions will see in excess of 30 miles and 5K feet in EMTB/Turbo with a little bit of power left at the end of the ride. BPW is usually about 30 miles and 5.5k feet of climbing with the battery dying on the last flatish climb to the top of the trails. Again, almost all EMTB with a pretty fast pace.

I haven't ridden a decent normal bike for 3 years now. I suspect the first couple of runs would be effing terrifying! 😀

twonks
Full Member

What I have to determine is – do they allow for more XC based riding to become more fun due to longer range of me and do they do so at the cost of taming the trail so it is just distance with no fun.

Twonks, the best bit for me about an ebike on normal XC stuff is that the uphills become a different challenge, those uphills that on a normal bike are usually a slow slog up now become speedier and you can take more challenging routes and also turn the flats into the same, Cwmcarn is a good one to work this on, with a normal bike up the reds being a challenge to stay on all the way, whilst on the ebike you're just trying bits that you avoided on the normal bike.

As for range, it's the same on an ebike as a normal, you ride through mud and you're losing efficiency, you ride on wet you lose efficiency, anything that will reduce your range on a normal bike does the same, you stick on those full mud tyres and you'll not be getting the same range as on intermediates, you wear full waterproofs and so on and again, you'll not be as efficient and use up more assistance, or your own energy.

[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51221822265_07d279aa1d_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51221822265_07d279aa1d_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2m3iedD ]2021-06-02_07-45-47[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/152318156@N08/ ]Steve Weeks[/url], on Flickr

The rest of yesterday was on this thing once again. Due to the effort of the mornings riding, you just can't keep with the Ebikes on the manaual bikes, so i jumped on the ebike for the rest of the rides. The Liv was sharp and precise, the short wheel base really does help with it's turning and at somewhere like Pines it works really well in terms of handling.
For me though it's let down with various aspects. One being the 15.6mph limit, it's not that i necessarily want MORE... but when you're at places like this, you're bordering on the limit of it all the time, on-off-on-off... Meh.
Second letdown for me is how it feels as you disengage when you stop pedalling, coming into a tight 90s through 2 trees for example, you have to set your feet and the motor disengages with a clunk, then re-engages with a clunk on the next stroke. In isolation that's OK but at Pines it's pretty much constant, clunk, turn, clunk, turn.

It does though eat up the trails with ease... I'm still not convinced i 'get' the power and delivery right, but that's possibly as Couchy was running in derestrict mode so it flatters his uphill speed and makes mine feel slow. But still, i don't feel it 'pulls' as i'd expect it should... Although, seeing the speed we pass manual bikes, i think they'd disagree.

I used only 2/5 of the battery lights, despite running at least 50% of the ride on full power to try and stay with the superbike. Which was pretty good in that context i have to say 🙂

As always, it changes the dynamics of the ride again into a power fest... Which is ok, but i'm still not sold lol. I know, some of you are thinking i'm just saying it or deluded, but i really do prefer the weight, handling and performance of the manual and lighter bikes.

Great pics and honest write up on the experience weeksy.

I've still not ridden an ebike...

Possibly because I'm slightly scared I might like it too much... Also, at least on a normal bike I mainly spanner myself on the downhill sections only rather then the uphills too!lol

Like I said though, fantastic writeup matey.👍

Some good stuff on here, thanks weeksy et al! In a few weeks I'll be ebike only, it's a bit of a punt but I've been holding the urge off for ages now!.

Due to loads of other outdoor hobbies, I really want to concentrate my riding into the stuff I really love, sub 3 hour winch n plummet type stuff, and all my mates have eebs for such riding.

Canny really be arsed with all day epics/death marches now,though I'm really looking forward to turning my local proper mountains from a push into a pedal.

@singlespeedstu I'll be looking for a wee day riding your locals soon, hopefully.

Canny wait.

I'm new to eMTB myself, and dived in at the deep end with a Vitus ESommet. I'd have never bought a full on enduro bike if it had been manual but wanted at least this year on one and it came up available.

I'm (road) bike fit and entering middle age so I don't fit the old or knackered brackets but can relate to your experience Weeksy. On the Vitus, it's running the Shimano EP8 motor which between on and off, the only thing you might notice is the slight whirr. Other than that, you can't feel the transition.

Did some routes around Dalby red and found myself a lot of the time above the limiter but only just as the heavy DD casing tyres and 24kg of bike means an effort to keep it spinning.

On steep uphills though, it excels and clearing section after section means that if a normal route for a less tech rider like me is 7mph AVG, then with eMTB it's 11 mph AVG. I was climbing a beast of an old quarry track the other day and I got to the top with my HR screaming at near maximum but I was climbing it much quicker (still below limiter) than I would have been on a bike.

I think most people who haven't ridden one think they go round with minimum input at the limit all the time. It might on the flat in turbo but to get to the limit on the climbs you still have to be working hard.

For me though it’s let down with various aspects. One being the 15.6mph limit, it’s not that i necessarily want MORE… but when you’re at places like this, you’re bordering on the limit of it all the time, on-off-on-off…

Very true and for me what kinda spoils some trails a bit.
I've only had my eeb for a few weeks but ridden it all over. A lot of trails I ride are steep and technical so there it's absolutely amazing. However, a lot of these trails can start with fairly long sections of mellow gradient. You VERY quickly reach the cut off point and it then becomes like riding in treacle to keep the bike going.

As soon as you get some gradient you're off and the bike feels brilliant but those flatish flowy starts to trails can feel a bit draggy.

I've taken mine for a couple of little xc rides and it's really not where the bikes are best imho. If you've got a lot of level sections, you're always on that limit. Do you rinse yourself trying to get a few extra mph or just chill and sit at 15?
It's not really worth rinsing yourself as the bike feels a real drag.

Other places that limit has sucked is say you have a fast downhill that goes straight into an uphill where normally you'd give it some welly down the hill and whoosh up the other side pedalling like a maniac to eek out as much momentum as you can. Well, on an ebike you try and do that and because you're over the limit it's like putting the brakes on as well as pedalling, right until you drop to 15 again then it's fine.
But you've lost that natural momentum you carry and the exhilaration of the down and up whoosh!

Most of us who have them agree that the American limit of around 20mph would work much better for general trail riding.

Most people would say that's a terrible idea and people would be doing crazy speeds down trails, but in reality, on the flat sections you can go faster on an mtb than an emtb.

It's also just perception I think. Because on an eeb your average speed and flow is higher, when you hit that limit you think that you're going slow. The reality is probably that you're just as quick as you would be on an mtb, it just seems non flowing in comparison.

Some friends compare their Strava times on segments and they're still a little quicker in general on the eeb.
We've all only had them a matter of a few months.

As a very old bloke, older even then the middle aged on this forum, I find the ebike a godsend. My recovery time after a tough ride is measured in weeks not days but I just don't feel as knackered after an ebike ride. I still get out on my normal bikes but don't go as far as I did. The ebike enables me to get some miles in more regularly.
I live near Lady Canning's and can get about 30 miles range if not trying too hard.

@nobeerinthefridge
Give us a shout and I'm sure we can hook up for a ride.

Cheers Stu, will do fella.

As for the comments on the cutting out issue, bear with me as I don't ride with a speedo, but I'm not sure on my Bronson with a 2.6 Mary up front that I hit 15.5mph very often under my own steam anyway? Not really that bothered about hammering fire roads, I generally expend energy on climbs a lot more.

Some other things I'm really looking forward to is techy climbs (especially after watching Tracey Moseley stuff on EMBN) and just a shit load more descending of my local built stuff, which will improve my skills too.

The cutting in and out thing can be a little annoying but only really happens on flat trails where it's kind of pointless riding an eeb anyway.

When I first got my ebike I found that as soon as the motor cut out at 15.5mph it felt like pedalling through treacle, I fairly quickly worked out that it was because I was in too high a gear for the bikes speed without the motor assisting.

On an ebike its really really easy to be in too high a gear than you should be for the speed because the torque of the motor allows you to turn that gear easily enough , but as soon as the motor cuts out, you're on your own and the gear is too high.

The solution is to keep in a lower gear and keep your cadence high, then the transition from help from the motor to no help from the motor is much less stark and treacle like.

or just de-restrict the bike.....