[Closed] Orange are going to sell a lot of Stage 5s

Are filing cabinets not pressed steel? If so surely more accurate description of a cotic ?

There's a scary cooincidence going on:

http://www.staples.com/aluminum+file+cabinet/directory_aluminum+file+cabinet

http://www.cb2.com/tps-carbon-3-drawer-filing-cabinet/s630139

http://www.staples.co.uk/filing-
cabinets/cbk/438.html

http://www.scanoptics.co.uk/electronic-filing-cabinet

Better get back to work I suppose...

Buy a spare then. You can buy 2 Canyons with similar level kit for the same money.

No you can't, you can buy two canyons but not the same spec the same spec is

https://www.canyon.com/en-gb/mtb/strive/2017/strive-cf-9-0-race.html

By the way want to do a frame only canyon build. The frame is £2600. Orange will start around £1600. That said who the hell would buy a canyon frame only to build up at that price!?!?

How are Orange still surviving...

Probably cos you don't work for them.

Comparisons with other brands which use dealer networks would be more helpful.

You can bash any traditional bike company with direct sales pricing, not just Orange.

No you can't, you can buy two canyons but not the same spec the same spec is

https://www.canyon.com/en-gb/mtb/strive/2017/strive-cf-9-0-race.html

Wait, what? Aren't we comparing to:

[url= https://www.orangebikes.co.uk/bikes/stage-5-le ]https://www.orangebikes.co.uk/bikes/stage-5-le[/url]

The Canyon you linked you has £1000 groupset, that Orange has a £300 one. The wheels on the Canyon are double the price. Not to mention it's carbon.

No, I was comparing to the £2500-2900 sort of models. Aluminium, GX instead of XT. Admittedly those Lyric RC are only £700 to the £850 Fox, that's about it though? Tragically I'd bet money the Canyons frame would be a good chunk lighter.

The main difference is you're spending £3000 for some guy to weld it together and a distributor to shift it around. I still think they'd be more competitive if they sold direct.

I'm going to buy one and will do so because I can.
Your a long time dead and shit 3 4k 5k who cares .
It's worth the extra as I'm proud it's made in UK .
That's the main reason for me .Yes I know there's better performing cheaper bikes but that's not the point for me.
Orange won't give a damm about this thread in fact it's become a bit of acceptance and gloss over. But does it matter really.

^^^^ This

I'm going to buy one and will do so because I can.
Your a long time dead and shit 3 4k 5k who cares .
It's worth the extra as I'm proud it's made in UK .
That's the main reason for me .Yes I know there's better performing cheaper bikes but that's not the point for me.

Thanks for that, my wife & kids will be so pleased for me after I cancelled our annual holiday and I've used your responses in defence of my new bike delivery.

Big-Bud - Member

I'm going to buy one and will do so because I can.
Your a long time dead and shit 3 4k 5k who cares .
It's worth the extra as I'm proud it's made in UK .

Not going to testride it or anything? Made in the UK doesn't mean you'll [i]like[/i] it. Or are you just going to do a Grantway and tell yourself it's better than all these other bikes you've never ridden?

Grantway

Oh man, I'd not heard that name in a while. Amazing guy.

My only issue I'm moaning about is that the new ones seem a bit pricey. Even a Segment with SLX for example is £2800, I don't mind that, seems fair enough.

I can't help but wonder if everyone is funding some new tooling with these new ones? Just seems totally bonkers. Given the value of the kit on it, is the frame going to be £4000 or something?

Wait, what? Aren't we comparing to:

https://www.orangebikes.co.uk/bikes/stage-5-le

The Canyon you linked you has £1000 groupset, that Orange has a £300 one. The wheels on the Canyon are double the price. Not to mention it's carbon.

No, I was comparing to the £2500-2900 sort of models. Aluminium, GX instead of XT. Admittedly those Lyric RC are only £700 to the £850 Fox, that's about it though? Tragically I'd bet money the Canyons frame would be a good chunk lighter.

The main difference is you're spending £3000 for some guy to weld it together and a distributor to shift it around. I still think they'd be more competitive if they sold direct.

Well to be honest we are both wrong, so you are not comparing apples with apples or oranges with Canyons to be brutally honest.

The spec on the Orange is as follows:
Fox 36 RC2 Boost £1059
X2 Rear shock £619
Fox Fctory Transfer £370
XT Groupset £300
Hope Cranks £250
Hope Brakes £300
Renthal carbon bars and stem £200
Hope Hubs on Easton Arc 30's - £500 (guess)

The model strive i linked has:
Same Forks
Cheaper Rear shock
Cheaper Dropper
Comparable wheels (i actually have 1501's and replaced Easton arcs with them so i prefer the canyon option They are certainly not double the price and not carbon)
YEs it has Eagle - but i personally would pay extra to remove all SRAM from my bike
Guide brakes - See above.

If you look at the two bikes side by side you can see that the spec on the Orange is superior. All bar the groupset and arguably the wheels.

Now this is where it gets interesting and i counter my arugment....

I actually have an Orange five built to the spec of the Stage 5.... I got rid of all the hope stuff as its overrated in my opinion (cranks and brakes) I replaced my wheels with XM1501's But I would not run SRAM kit on a bike again. The point is you cannot buy a 2 x Canyons for the price of that Orange new. In fact it isnt as far away in price as you would think. Especially if you upgraded the shock on the Canyon to the Orange spec, Brakes and other bits to match.

To be frank, trundling around at an average of 11mph, you might as well be on a 3 4k 5k bike as a £700 one. Most riders wont get anywhere near the limits of their 'rigs' so spending more money matters not a jot to them, image you see. Look fast at the pub.

Im really not sure why people get so annoyed around what others spend their money on. I mean its not like they built an Ebike or anything......

My vex wasn't with what people spend their cash on it's with how over inflated the pushbike market is and it's only going to get worse with the justifications given for why spending £6k on a bike is a good idea.

I love buying things however, I prefer good value for money and I don't see that often in the MTB industry if YT hadn't brought out the Capra I'd still probably have only justified a second hand build.

Anyway, my musings over... it is a forum after all, not everyone is on the same page.

Im really not sure why people get so annoyed around what others spend their money on. I mean its not like they built an Ebike or anything......

Who's annoyed? Are people not allowed to express an opinion, for fear of offending one of the potential customers?

The Canyon you linked, you are aware you're spending a fortune on the carbon frame? The alloy version is £2000 less.

[url= https://www.canyon.com/en-gb/mtb/strive/2017/strive-al-6-0-race.html ]https://www.canyon.com/en-gb/mtb/strive/2017/strive-al-6-0-race.html[/url]

I've had a Five before, bought new with a set of Kashima forks for £2k, I do have an interest in their new bits. Even if you bought all those bits you'd listed previously for online prices, you'd still have about £3000 left over (assuming the frame comes with a shock), I wonder if that's going to be the sort of price they're asking.

I was trying to think of another company doing similar prices for flash aluminium frames, without being custom built. The only thing I can think of is something like Nicolai?

I like the geo numbers on the XL Stage 5. It's usefully longer than my large Nicolai Helius AC 29er and although I'd prefer to see a sub-500mm seat tube 508mm isn't the end of the world and I'll still manage to squeeze in a 170mm Reverb. Would stick my 150mm Avalanche Pike on it though.

I recently had my single pivot prejudices readjusted after a 2hr blast on an XL RocketMax, during one of their organised demo days, so I'm willing to give both of the Stages a chance of being my next frame purchase so just need to try and get a demo on one at some point soon.

445mm stays on the Stage 5 are the same length as the RocketMax which felt playful enough (my Nicolai is 454mm as reference) so I would like to assume the Orange would feel ok too.

Great time to be looking for a new LT 29er frame....

5.5 k for that build is a joke but i assume some fanboys will buy it, and if they can afford to then fair enough

I'd never buy an orange personally, regardless of where they are made and VFM I think there are far better bikes out there, and they look crap.

I love Orange frames, I'm a fan of single pivot designs anyway but i especially like the industrial over built looks of an Orange frame.
The frame only deals (usually around £1500-£1600) are comparable to other brands, my Giant Trance frame and shock was £1500, what I have a problem with is the build spec.

It's crap, let's be honest for the money they're asking it's pretty poor.
If it ever goes on sale as frame only for the usual £1500 then I could spec a better build for the 5.5k they're asking, it's irritating because aren't they supposed to be able to buy in bulk for discounts?...they must get some kind of trade prices at least?...it doesn't seem like this gets passed onto the customer.
Who actually pays £1000+ for a fork?!....i can go online and find that fork brand new for around £800....a full XT groupset is around £300 including brakes, why then only put half of it on and instead charge a premium for Hope brakes that in my experience are no better than Deore!?....their full builds reek of style over substance and quoting the manufacturers rrp for a particular part is no defence when anyone can go to CRC, wiggle, Jenson etc and get the same parts for several hundred quid less...it's why YT, Canyon, Radon etc are doing so well, people don't like being offered an average spec bike for top money.
In short I love the frame but I hate the company ethos.

To understand Orange pricing, just look at the upgrades. £290 to upgrade to a Reverb that you can buy for £245 (and you don't get the £25 seatpost so it's effectively £315). Upgrade to Hope BB and it costs £65 and again you don't get the standard BB that you've already paid for so it's effectively £90. And so on.

Actually I'll totally defend the pricing of the frames, but their markup on the upgrades is a total pisstake.

Actually deviant we are on the same page here. Like I have said earlier in this post. I wouldn't buy a full build orange. Adding hope parts to something a charging a premium is short sighted to me. I prefer to spec my own bike. Perhaps I am one of the few orange owners who does not rate hope products. But to me it's no selling point. In fact the only parts I would keep on that build are the forks, shock, seat post and groupset. All of which I would find cheaper online.

I kind of guess this emphasise my point. I would only buy an orange frame, as actually they are priced inline with everything else. I like how they ride and they work for the amount and places I ride. Full build...forget it!

....their full builds reek of style over substance and quoting the manufacturers rrp for a particular part is no defence when anyone can go to CRC, wiggle, Jenson etc and get the same parts for several hundred quid less...it's why YT, Canyon, Radon etc are doing so well, people don't like being offered an average spec bike for top money.
In short I love the frame but I hate the company ethos.

To be fair to Orange, scale and route to market aren't comparable to the competitors you mention so don't hate the ethos, it isn't their ethos, it's just how OE parts arrive to you and who needs a margin along the way. Same for many small brands. You can just buy a frame and shop online if you want more bike for less £ and don't want/need retailer support.

I think I'll seriously look at getting one.

Orange have always been pricey but that price is nuts, at the end of the day it is still a pushbike ffs!

If it had Eagle and carbon rims they might be able to justify the price tag, but XT with that weighty cassette? The £5.5k price does appear to carry a **** tax.

But as myself and others have said, [i]there will be other builds and a frame-only option[/i].

I don't understand going "OMG £5.5k FOR A BIKE??!?!?"

You do know there are intense bikes that are £8.5k+ ?

Oranges aren't the best value but they have a USP and heritage/following so do well.

I've been waiting for these to be released, kinda hope the reach/sizing would be sightly longer for the medium but happy to demo one to see how the actually feel in reality.

Certainly wouldn't be paying 5k+ for a full build though, much prefer to buy frame only and use stuff I already own.

I suspect the pricing is reflective of the impact of the low value of the pound, making the import costs much higher.

Those thinking the frame only will be around £1600 like the frames are today, I think you'll be off by ~£200 when the new pricing comes out. Factor in a shock upgrade, so you get a decent shock and it does become expensive.

I had a five29 for 18 month and have a Five now. Value for money isn't the initial cost, it's the £20 you spend to replace all the bearings. It's the £200 you pay in two years to get the frame repainted and stickered. It's the fact it is very unlikely to break 0.47% failure rate.

And if they do break, it's the fact they'll have a spare part out to you in days - not begrudgingly months like YT or Canyon.

Value for money isn't just the initial outlay, it's total cost of ownership and the post sales service.

You like it, or you don't, but you can't argue Orange makes the best suited bikes for the UK's absolute minging conditions.

I've been waiting for these to be released, kinda hope the reach/sizing would be sightly longer for the medium but happy to demo one to see how the actually feel in reality.

Theyve dropped the seat tube by and inch on the large, so it's now 18" not 19", therefore you can size up easily now to get the bigger top tube. I did the same on my Five.

I'd like to try a sorted 29er, but it won't be an Orange.
I'm glad they exist, and I'm pleased for those that like them, but they certainly aren't for me. Give me a bit of extra maintenance for a significant increase in performance any day.

significant increase in performance

Back to back, I'm much faster on a single pivot Five or Alpine Five compared to a £7k Giant reign carbon race bike, or a £5k Specialised enduro 650b.

I don't know what the increase in performance is.

I said something over on pinkbike, but once you get down to the analysis of the suspension, a simple single pivot can work incredibly well if you put the pivot in the right place and drive the shock from and anchor it to the right places.

Yes, some multi-pivot bikes do some good things with leverage ratio, anti-squat and anti-rise but lots don't do anything better and many worse than a simple single-pivot.

The main issue with single pivots has been the challenge of keeping the back end stiff enough - but 1x and even Boost helps a lot with that. And we're seeing a realisation that stiffer isn't always better.

making the import costs much higher

One of the great redeeming features was "made in England" wasnt it?

Personally speak I've often thought an Orane would be the perfect bike for me, with my worrying traits it may be the only FS I could own that'd just sit in the shed dirty and I could get out again at weekends in leiu of my race bike. TGhe Segment then becam the defacto setup. I looked at the 2yo Segments being kncked out for £2300 on the Sale page - £2300 for a 2yo bike.

As mentioned before, my Anthem 29er bearings are gone and in these climes replacements from BETD are £55 plus whatever labour the LBS charges. Now with 120mm Reba and heavier "2nd" wheels it rides OK as a general trail bike. If it died I might look at a Segment, but until then...

As mentioned before, my Anthem 29er bearings are gone and in these climes replacements from BETD are £55 plus whatever labour the LBS charges.

If you like Orange bikes you'll put in on your list of maybes. Looks and sounds phenomenal. If you don't you go elsewhere. This is a launch edition model after all. Everything Hope, Fox, Renthal and dependable XT. There'll be cheaper versions which will be bought and upgraded/replaced over time. There'll be frame only's built with donor parts. Each to their own. I love it and probably would pay the £5.5k if I was in the market. I'd rather spend on this than buy a Cruz for the same money with a far inferior build!

I ride a Segment RS which only has the original frame, forks and reverb left in it's current build!!! I'm always tinkering with new bits/setup. Go figure...

Try it, like it, buy it, change it, enjoy it!!! In whatever form you desire. 😉

Cheers.

Strangely we have a lot of folk come in with a bike like Kilo's wife's Ibis claiming the bearings are fine, however when the bike is stripped, the bearings are shot!! And prob have been for some time, but of course the linkage is working great , NOT!!

So probable most multipivot bikes are working well below manufacturers claims, but most folk couldn't tell anyway, so how they going to tell difference between a multi pivot, be it DW, VPP or an SP ?!!!!

I'd rather spend on this than buy a Cruz for the same money with a far inferior build!

[url= https://www.stif.co.uk/bikebuilder/santa-cruz-bronson-cc-custom-bike/143/ ]https://www.stif.co.uk/bikebuilder/santa-cruz-bronson-cc-custom-bike/143/[/url]

Far inferior there, could even have a full XT + BOS Deville build for less than the Stage 5. It looks like a top bike, I'm just baffled by people trying to justify the £5.5k build is good value compared to anything else on the market. Totally blinded by the sticker on the side.

Those thinking the frame only will be around £1600 like the frames are today, I think you'll be off by ~£200 when the new pricing comes out. Factor in a shock upgrade, so you get a decent shock and it does become expensive.

The Alpine6 with an X2 is £2170 so no reason to think this won't be the same.

Kryton57 - Member

As mentioned before, my Anthem 29er bearings are gone and in these climes replacements from BETD are £55

I'd recommend not buying expensive, low quality bearings tbh, BETD's bearing sets are only one step up from ebay no-names.

catvet - Member

Strangely we have a lot of folk come in with a bike like Kilo's wife's Ibis claiming the bearings are fine, however when the bike is stripped, the bearings are shot!! And prob have been for some time, but of course the linkage is working great , NOT!!

So probable most multipivot bikes are working well below manufacturers claims, but most folk couldn't tell anyway, so how they going to tell difference between a multi pivot, be it DW, VPP or an SP ?!!!

They still perform differently even with tired bearings though, just not as well as they should. Bikes don't suddenly all become the same after a little wear and tear. But tbh the same's true of Orange, maybe more so people believe the "UK proof" hype and neglect them even more. I've never worked on an Orange that didn't need new bearings.

Orange full build prices to me seem like they need to offer full builds but would rather sell frame only.

The Alpine 6 frame is £1750 with a RS Monarch Plus R shock so i'd expect the stage 6 frame to be in this region rather than the 4/5/segment price of £1650.

Those prices for the Orange frames is bang in line with Santa Cruz Aluminium frames, Bronson alu is £1699 on Stif.

They look like they'll be fast. The folded metal doesn't photograph well, all the recent Orange bikes have looked really good in real life.

So what if they have priced in some margin for the shops, there is nothing stopping anybody shopping around and doing their own build, or even maybe walking into the shop and talking to them about a deal.

So what if they have priced in some margin for the shops, there is nothing stopping anybody shopping around and doing their own build, or even maybe walking into the shop and talking to them about a deal.

No no no! We must have a race to the bottom so everyone can afford to buy new things all the time. Except when it affects our wages, then obviously it's fair to charge more...

Strangely we have a lot of folk come in with a bike like Kilo's wife's Ibis claiming the bearings are fine, however when the bike is stripped, the bearings are shot!! And prob have been for some time, but of course the linkage is working great , NOT!!

Yeah, this is true, my old ibis would need a new set of bearings every 6 months, it would feel mostly fine when riding , but if you take the linkage apart and try and turn the bearings by hand a couple would be siezed and the rest very notchy. Once you put new bearings in the difference in ride was night and day.

That said , the number of bearings in a frame has no bearing (boom tish) on my choice of frame, I just buy what I like the look of.

I'm not in interested in these stages, but the new alpine 6 looks very appealing. Have never ridden single pivot, but I dont believe all the hype of it being somehow inferior to multi pivot designs. I think all sus design is a compromise in one way or another.

Would be very interested to have a go on an alpine 6.

Strange when the wife's bikes have been in for regular services at a well respected mtb lbs they've not said the bearings are shot.
As I also mentioned when the bearings on my trance were shot it was no big thing getting them sorted