[Closed] Opinions please

Has the world gone mad? Of course he should be helping you out if he CAN. (based on your scenario).

Profit/awkwardness in front of being a half decent Human. Shame on you lot!

the whole point of using your local ish bike shop is based around customer service with out this why bother, i had similar probs with a shop near me had a puncture went in the shop asked how much to fix tried to charge me £20, so in the end asked if i could just borrow the work shop pump and i would fix the puncture my self, no was his answer, so then u decide wether or not to use his shop in the future, guys with attitudes like that shouldnt open shops, they should just do mail order on the net, his shop has since closed no sympathy from me or quite a few other people what goes around comes around, a prime example why so many people shop on line serious lack of customer services these days

Why didnt you just say "I will buy this part if you lend me the tool to fit it - the tool wll not leave this shop". If he says no then whats the point of buying it - wait till you get home then buy it on CRC for half the price.

+1

I guess, he's a bit blinkered. You could be on here saying "Dave at ABC Bikes is a top bloke, he got us out of a right hole half way through a ride"

But instead....

We dont have to worry, he will be out of business pretty quick with that kind of attitude. Denying the only market he has left - this being the "I need this bit right now!" market.

Had a problem with a crank bros pedal on a work to Balloch pootle last year, axle seized solid (bet that's never happened before eh?) and the chap at the bike shop at Bowling was kind enough to lend me a pedal spanner after I bought some spds from him.
Forgot my spd shoes a few years back on a Glentress trip- the chaps in the (old) shop were kind enough to lend me a set of flats and tools again a pedal spanner so I could fit them- and didn't charge me a penny.
I like that there's still helpful and trusting folk in the world.

I like that there's still helpful and trusting folk in the world.

Which is why I still lend out tools if I like the look of you.

Which is why I still lend out tools if I like the look of you.

This is pretty much what it came down to for me when I was a mechanic. If you gave the impression of being the sort of person who was going to break my tools or take them or is generally a bit incompetent, I'd not lend them (for example, if you're the sort of person who's happy to set of on a ride with a BB that's already pretty much shot and you didn't realise).

If you looked trustworthy, or it was something simple like a pump (and even then most people will come back in asking how it works) then I would.

Sadly, these days, you aren't allowed to let people into your workshop unless they're employees under 95% of bike shop insurance policies. And so having them work on their filthy bike and use grease out in your nice clean shop floor whilst you try and deal with other customers isn't ideal, and bike shops rarely have enough staff to let someone supervise you (if they have time to supervise you they'd do it themselves).

So, yes, it is a pain, and it can come across as rude, but there are too many issues for shops to safely lend you tools. They will almost always do their best to help you out, but it's a risky thing to lend tools.

A few years ago I turned up in Hayfield with two frames and 3 wheels for me and my wife.

Went to ask in the bike hire place if I could possibly rent a wheel for the day and the lovely chap there lent me one and wouldn't take any money for it. Pretty high possibility of damage to a wheel I'd have thought too. Or maybe he recognised my minciness.....

Don't lend my tools out, aside of the odd allen key, have lent some other stuff out before at races resulting in it getting dropped and lost in the grass or rounded, luckily I have 2 of most critical things.

To replace a bb that's potentially quite a few tools, most of which would be fairly easy to damage and good stuff isn't cheap either, so you'll be stuff for your next job if they get mangled.
If you were stuck I'd probably have fitted the job in, however this could have turned into a 2 hour job if the rest of the bike was in state and it'll have been covered in muck too.
So no don't think he was being an arse, he was busy so couldn't do the job and wasn't willing to lend you £200 worth of tools that would potentially get damaged.

BB's don't just fail instantly either

They had trail tools, so could have removed the cranks themselves. Literally all they needed was a BB tool, and the Park ones are £20. Even if someone knocked on my front door, I'd lend them one and I haven't even sold them anything.
Name and Shame. We can decide if we want to use them or not.

Ultimately it is the shops decision. They are under no obligation. If for whatever reason they do not want to lend you tools then that is their prerogative. Public whining and hand wringing does'nt change that .
Step 1.Get over it
Step 2.Move on.

If you want to know who it was there was something on it earlier in the week.

I wouldn't have lent out the tools myself, as Loco said a BB isn't something that dies instantly.

The only time I have borrowed tools from a shop I waved a 6 pack in the mechanics face (and also explained that I was an experienced mechanic....).

As recently stated, BB's don't just fall apart. People have to take some sort of responsibility for their actions (or inaction....).

Also, some people don't seem to understand just how busy a workshop can be. We make time for tube changes, gear adjusts, pad installs, brake adjusts etc but a bottom bracket CAN be problematic. A cup could be seized in the frame. It could have been cross threaded. It's one of those jobs that CAN take a few minutes, or you can be ****ing about with torches, fluids and long bars and end up getting it out over the course of two days in between other jobs.

Having a customer p!ssing about on the retail floor fumbling away for an hour trying to fix things while getting in the way of other customers and getting grease everywhere is a major pain in the arus.

The lesson to be learned here is to check over your own bike periodically rather than waiting for it to explode in the middle of nowhere.

All lent tools are broken tools!
Cant think of a single time borrowed tools came back in the condition I thought they were.
BUT
Yes! He is a div to sell a part he knows is useless if its needed then and there...

My LBS owner is a star.

I recently needed a headset fitting to a frame and don't have a headset press. He'd just had an operation on his wrist so couldn't do it for me but instead said I could do it myself in his workshop.

One headset was fitted to frame, crown race fitted to the fork, no tools were broken. He didn't even want any money but I insisted on a fiver to go in his holiday fund.

He also got another £70 of business as I bought a couple of tools and a new chain.

I'd have thought that most decent LBS would have quickly fitted a BB that has just been bought from them to help someone who was stuck 20 miles from home. The customer would be singing the praises of the shop.

I think this thread shows people who have worked/work in the trade and those that dont.

The tools are how a shop makes its money etc...

Not un-reasonable to not lend out tools...could have offered to do the work for you? Squeeze it in, however the job that always looks like a quick job normally throws up problems.

I'd say the unreasonable one is your mate for setting off on a ride without a working bike! Fair enough if it "just breaks" (smashing a rear mech on a rock or something) but BBs tend to fail gradually and give you enough warning to fix them.

It's a pet hate of mine turning up for a ride and someone arives with a bike in bits and expects you all to wait while they "just fix" something...

Not unreasonable for a shop to refuse to lend out tools, especially expensive ones. Track pump/allen keys etc, yes but lending out tools to do a full BB rebuild in a corner of his shop? And then the customer ballsing it up and asking for help and suddenly the shop owner is looking at an unscheduled job occupying his workstand for 30 minutes while other pre-booked work gets put to one side.

Is it unreasonable to not lend your own tools? No

If LBS's want to survive do they need to offer "added value" and go the extra mile? Yes.

Their choice.

So would anyone here buy some wood from a timber yard and expect the owner to lend you a saw and maybe some clamps whilst you did a bit of DIY in his shop?

Maybe you could take the wood to B+Q, buy some paint and borrow one of their brushes to paint it with in the shop?

FFS

Grease wrnech monkey veteran here - lending out tools is a PITA, often you have folk losing them, breaking them, coming back inwith "could you give us a hand", "how do we do x" etc.

The mechanic has no way of knowing whether you know what you are talking about.

In those circumstances I might lend the tool or allow someone to fix their bike in the shop though.

I would have asked for a refund on the bottombracket. No good to you if you cant fit it.

And totally agree - the shop owner/shop assistant is a cock.

If it was an external BB. The splines on the BottomBracket would round off before you came close to breaking the BB-tool.
If internal BB. Once again, its the threads on chainset thats gonna go before the actual extractor.
None of the tools he could have borrowed you would have cost more than £20.

Lesson learnt though. Avoid the shop. Warn others to never use the shop. And name and shame on here for good measure.

His shop, his tools, his choice. Lending out tools is a big no no and as previous posters have said, it soon turns into more than a simple case of lending a bb tool. Personally, given the situation I would have supplied and fitted the bb - it takes very little time to do so (assuming it's a relatively new bike, external bb, not a 20 year old frame complete with seized bb) - the rider would have continued on his way, and I'd have had more money in the till. It does depend on the customers attitude too though, and how they approach the shop keeper.

So would anyone here buy some wood from a timber yard and expect the owner to lend you a saw and maybe some clamps whilst you did a bit of DIY in his shop?
Maybe you could take the wood to B+Q, buy some paint and borrow one of their brushes to paint it with in the shop?
FFS

B&Q will cut any timber that you buy for you.
At our local store, the first 15 cuts are free, then it's 50p a cut.
But they'll also split your order in two for you if you're buying enough to need more than 15 cuts, so that's 30 free.
It's called customer service.

Ultimately it is the shops decision. They are under no obligation.

That's not in dispute. But he still sounds like a cock.

we keep it really simple, and its exactly the same for everyone

no one borrows any tools from our workshop, even the shop staff

it's been this way in the last 6 shops I have worked in (independants and chain stores)

others have explained why mechanics do not lend tools, in addition our liability insurers are very strict about this issue, due to previous payouts to customers who have maimed themselves using lent tools 🙁

of course we would always try to accomodate a customer IF times permits

but, we'd never drop everything in the middle of a pre-paid £6,500 custom build where the customer is collecting that evening

or get drawn into the other problem, where the BB fitment suddenly develops into a range of other issues (front derailleur / chain / loose swingarm pivot, missing spokes, etc.) that need sorting before the bike is safe and ready to leave the workshop

I can only assume that those who have suggested the LBS guy was being unreasonable sit behind a desk for a living.

In which case, my computer has a virus, but I've got my memory stick here, can I please borrow your PC for a couple of minutes so I can finish this letter / report/ essay I'm writing? Thought not.

As we all know (hopefully), there are two sides to every story. Attitude is everything and generally I have found those people who spout 'customer is king' come up a little short on courtesy, politeness and general bon homme.

It's a tricky one, however please do not name and shame because maybe, just maybe the attitude of the group when entering the shop was not all that convivial and could be the reason for refusal.

Please do not ask to borrow the tools I have invested in for me to put food on my table, as refusal may offend.

FWIW I'd never ask an lbs for the loan of it's tools, as i rarely use them and this is mainly due to how unpleasant i found some of my dealings with them which are exampled by some lbs folk on here. I just found it 'better' to learn to do stuff myself. I could be jealous, having worked in a&e's for years i don't get to choose my customers and moved well beyond judging those i deal with, it's rarely worth the hassle. I'm surprised that i seem a lot less bitter than those who work in lbs's, i never realised it was such a harsh environment to exist in. As with all of these threads, there are good and bad lbs', and good and bad customers; fortunately we get to choose which we want to be.

Its not as if the guy just walked in off street asking to borrow the tool. He had bought the part in an emergency.
The shop had said they were too busy to do it. So why not let fella use tool in such a situation?

People who think shop was reasonable - would they fancy the 20mile push home, knowing full well the shop had the tool to sort it ?
Sounds like shop was trying to blackmail guy into buying the BB tool.

Aside from fixing a puncture. Swapping BB is one of the easiest DIY jobs.

if you bought the parts assuming without asking that he'd let you borrow the tools (or checking if he'd fit them for you if not) then you're the twits, if you ask me.

Swapping BB is one of the easiest DIY jobs.

It can be or it can turn into a total nightmare. Stripped threads, rounded crank bolt, bits all over the place, seized cups...

Maybe the shop *could* easily have fitted it but that means taking time out from pre-booked jobs to do it. Yes it might be 10 mins but it might be 2hrs if there are further problems. Last thing a shop wants is a hoard of muddy bikers faffing round in a corner trying to fix a BB using their expensive tools. 5 mins on a puncture is one thing, taking a bike to pieces is quite another.

Suppose you've ordered a £3000 bike and you're having it built by the shop on Saturday for collection that evening for your first ride out on it on Sunday. You call by the shop that night and they say "oh sorry mate, we didn't do it cos some chump walked in having knackered his BB so we fitted that for £20 and didn't have time to finish your new pride and joy"

Priorities. I'd say going for a ride with a worn BB was the problem, not the shops attitude to fixing it.

@crazy-legs

^^ agreed

a big problem for a busy workshop, is that...its busy!

we have customers booked into our workshop at least 1 week in advance even in the off-season, and potentially 2-3 weeks in advance during the peak season

that also includes customers buying new bikes, or having custom builds, which always take priority over bike repairs..

as I mentioned in my previous post, we will always try to accommodate "on the spot repairs" but when busy its often not possible, we don't have a spare mechanic with a spare workstand and spare toolkit just hanging about for those instances

customers who have booked in advance always get priority, as the aspect to taking "on the spot repairs", is that we then bump the pre-booked customers down the timetable to the point where we don't get their repairs finished on the day when expected, which means apologies, loss of goodwill and offer compensation like reduced price servicing or vouchers to spend in the shop

the other aspect to "on the spot repairs" (excepting a puncture, which can happen anytime) is that its often for customers who have neglected their bike to the point where it eventually fails, causing the situation the OP mentioned.

And with those bikes, its rarely just the BB issue the OP mentioned, but a host of other neglect-related issues that a competent Cytech / C&G professional mechanic will not let "out" of their workshop due to concerns about liability! That BB fitment can turn into 1-2 hours of messing about

I've lost count of the number of things that have been lent and not returned
It's somthing we tend not to do anymore except for those we know very well

But every situation is differant sounds like the shop could have done things a little differant

And the tools we have are far more than £20 worth

Socket fitting bb tools snap on ratchets etc
The fsa external bb socket is now a silly price to replace
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mobile/MobileModels.aspx?ModelID=36385

IMO, the mechanic knows BB's don't just fail so is well aware that the bike he is being asked to lend tools for is potentially a bit of a heap and therefore probably going to be problematic. Also, if its a heap, the rider isn't much of a mechanic and so will be more likely to damage any tools he uses.

The tools are the mechanics, therefore it's his decision if he wants to lend them out or not, he isn't he RAC or AA and so is under no obligation to get you going again.

He has just taught your pal a very important lesson though. Sort your bike out before the ride, not during.

It boils my wee wee when mechanicals happen on a ride that have effectively been caused by simple bike neglect.

To the few people that think that shops should lend tools to anyone who walks through the door, would you even offer anything in return or is it all just ME ME ME? Hell, if I was in the middle of nowhere and the shop did not have time to help me, I'd see if I could just pay the labour charge, do the work myself and get on with my life. If the shop said no and turned down the cash, then fair enough but it'd be worth a try.

LOL at the lbs shop assistants here bulling it with the expensive tools line ..

Its a £20 tool thats only needed.
Typical to see how lbs will make a tiny thing such as undoing a BB into a technical 2hr job requiring £200 worth od fragile specialist tool ...and you need to be highly skilled to do it lol

yep - easy to see why lbs is in decline.

For the record. I have a pretty good bike tool collection. Many times people in work have asked to borrow different tools to sort their own bikes at home. Worse scenario I have ever had from helping them, is that it comes back a bit oily ..

Yes the park tool spanner works very well and is only £20
But that's not what we use , you can't open a brand new packet off te shelf to lend out

Socket fitting bb tool allow you to use a torque wrench rather than just doing it up as tight as you can

99% of the time it's not a 2 hour job but Somtimes it is

Im a mechanic, and from years of experience I never lend tools.

As for the rider having to push his bike 20 miles home, well thats just bad planning.

When ever I am on a ride I always plan for worse case scenario, and because I don't want to carry loads of bits and tools with me I carry a credit card, worse case if the bike breaks and I cant carry on riding I get a taxi or a train, simples.

It annoys me that people who fail to plan then blame others for there stupidity.

My opinion? It's totally clear from this thread that there's a big difference in what some of us think is acceptable and what is not. That's not going to change. Personally I think it's reasonable for an lbs to say no to customers who ask to borrow tools. It's unreasonable for customers to expect the lbs to drop everything to sort their problems. However these are generalisations and I'd hope and expect we don't have to have "rules".

I do however think that the lbs in this thread did not handle the situation well at all...or the OP is not telling us the full story.

Yep, there's two distinct camps here. Experienced spannermen who have been there, done that, and realise that by lending out tools there's a risk(s) involved. Then you have the guys who expect a bike shop to bend over backwards, because they're the only customer in the world.

If i was in the OPs shoes, i'd be a bit pi55ed off, but would also realise that the guys has his reasons for not lending out, and they are very valid.

I've borrowed and lent tools (i don't have much of a collecting [i]or[/i] much spannering ability) and most i've given or got back, some returned to me in pieces. I'll still happily lend tools out to mates or strangers in need, but my livelihood doesn't depend on it. If it did, I might, but only if it wasn't an inconvenience (like being busy) and the borrower looked like he knew what he was doing (no proof in this instance).

I can only assume that those who have suggested the LBS guy was being unreasonable sit behind a desk for a living

mooman - Member

yep - easy to see why lbs is in decline.

Yep - it's easy to see that you have worked on a limited range of bikes. When you have removed / installed hundreds of BBs over a 20+ year period you'll see that while 90% of BB jobs are easy, the remaining 10% (generally the neglected bikes that explode mid-ride....) are a complete time suck.

All I am seeing here from the moaners is the usual sense of entitlement. The OP still hasn't mentioned if his friend offered anything (beer / tool deposit etc...) in return for borrowing tools, or he just wanted something for nothing....

Wow, what happened to human decency. What is the LBS doing with the tool if they can't fix something as simple as a BB? It's a 5 minute job whichever way you cut it and could be done there and then by the rider without taking tools out of the shop or away from the premises. My LBS has a policy of fitting parts for free if you buy them from them. If he was that bothered about a tool breaking or going missing he could have always taken a deposit for it, and if it did go missing and was needed for another job later in the day - well he's got his own bike shop so should have one in stock. No wonder people are so grumpy these days with so little basic humanity going round - it just breeds apathy.

I would expect a certain LBS in Mill St. to take a fairly hard line on tool lending, eh Will?

Wow, what happened to human decency?

Double edged sword this one..