[Closed] On one copying Sonder??

When you say "copy", I think you might mean that they've both just picked the same frame from the catalogue

The heatubes are different?

you need to compare the numbers, not the pictures, surely?

Some of the Sonder photos have the same gap between the top and down tubes. The shape of the headtube just looks different because of the badge coming into view i think. Haven't checked the geometry, but SA and HA are basically the same

I would be a bit bummed if I had paid almost double for the Sonder based on those pics

from the sonder owners page on fb;

yep, they've copied the Signal, Camino Ti and Broken Road, we're looking into what we can do about it.

When you say “copy”, I think you might mean that they’ve both just picked the same frame from the catalogue

I don't think Sonder buy catalogue frames.

However, given Alpkit are the past masters of copying/rebadging others folks designs there's a pot/kettle nuance about this situation.

from the sonder owners page on fb;

yep, they’ve copied the Signal, Camino Ti and Broken Road, we’re looking into what we can do about it.

I wasn't aware that a bunch of angles and lengths etc was copyright-able, so this will be interesting.

Doesn't Brant design for both? Perhaps an agreement to get bulk purchase benefits?

According to Neil at Sonder. It is his design and his moulds.

I was going to say is there a brant connection? I don't think there is...?

Seems on-one are happy to steal pics online, what's a few frame designs too?

It's alright, they've a good customer service line you can call. Oh wait, my bad, you have to page brant on here and do it all publically while a few more back links and special offers are dropped into the thread for added bonus.

There is. When he did that Pact Bikes thingy.
https://outdoorsmagic.com/article/alpkits-new-bikes-first-pictures/

I'm curious what moulds Neil is using for tubular metal frames.

I assume the moulds refers to the carbon frames...

I wonder how well protected his IP is, as they might well be in the big catalogue now

I would still buy the Sonder. Sonders 10 year warranty and excellent customer service far outweigh the crappy 2 year warranty from PX and appalling CS.

Brant does full refunds from 10 years ago on frames that didn’t break and are no longer owned by the person getting the refund.

Beat that Alpkit 👍

more from fb

Same factory, 100% our own design, they supplied their own (replica) drawings so the factory couldn't say no.

I used to work there and Brant did design the original BR and Camino TI before i joined Sonder (so i guess still has copies of the original drawings which he modified to match our current, updated designs that i've done), these drawings are our property though as he was paid for the work.

bad news. Looks like a direct copy. No wonder Sonder are upset.

Oh boohoo. Paging Jeff Jones.

However, given Alpkit are the past masters of copying/rebadging others folks designs there’s a pot/kettle nuance about this situation.

+1

As @jimdubleyou says, this'll be interesting.

A hardtail frame is hardly the bleeding edge of bicycle design, so what are Sonder claiming as 'their' design?

Many things look like other things, doesn't make them the same though.

However, given Alpkit are the past masters of copying/rebadging others folks designs there’s a pot/kettle nuance about this situation.

Have they previously used the same actual design, just tweaked a bit?

I can see why they feel it's a bit cheeky, and I've seen similar situations in my work - freelances submitting essentially the same work to different clients.

*opens biscuits*

First they rip off the three little pigs and now this.  In the race to the bottom PX really are ahead of Daffyd Thomas😀

^^^^ okay now I'm def opening the biscuits

A hardtail frame is hardly the bleeding edge of bicycle design, so what are Sonder claiming as ‘their’ design?

Yep and all the individual features have been used before (the seat tube gusset thing, the down tube bend towards head tube). If the sum of a load of features used by others before but in a certain configuration makes the frame unique/copyrightable is doubtful I would think.

Lol I'd buy the cheap copy😆😂
Overpriced junk anyway

https://m.pinkbike.com/buysell/2175567/

Did bikes not look broadly the same for like a century? Can you claim IP on what is basically some angles?

Same frame (essentially) built in the same factory, but one is £450 more than the other. How does that work ? But I know which one I'd buy.

I'm sure brant will be along in a minute to confirm that the Broken Road is just a copy of the Ti Pact that I designed but with some fancy dropouts.

Did bikes not look broadly the same for like a century? Can you claim IP on what is basically some angles?

I think you probably could if it was an exact copy. There's more to a bike than angles, tube shapes and profiles for tyre clearances, some brands have a 'look' which depends on subtle differences (e.g older Rocky Mountain frames had the seat stays above the top tube, GT triple triangle, BMC ermmmm triple triangle). And there's a cost saving in not having to prototype (why have several samples made, then more for CEN testing, if you could just copy a frame that already works and will be sure to pass first time).

Whether the frames are identical and whether you can patent angles and dimensions is one thing. The black and white images PX used as placeholders were Sonder's pics just coloured in as they had the Sonder logo and one had the wrong dropouts as the Titus has through axles. So beyond cheeky.

So the second time in a week that OnOne have been discovered using someone else's pictures?

It's starting to get deliberate...

Cant beat free advertising, alpkit didnt mind with the Jones alike bar so what comes around goes around

taxi25

Member

Same frame (essentially) built in the same factory, but one is £450 more than the other. How does that work ?

One of them had prototypes, design work, jig prep, sourcing and preorders of materials, CEN testing etc and the other one didn't.

Whether the frames are identical and whether you can patent angles and dimensions is one

and

I think you probably could if it was an exact copy. There’s more to a bike than angles, tube

IANAL alert... There are generally four ways to protect IP: patents, trademarks, copyrights, and trade secrets.

Although, if you are Specialized, I suppose there is a fifth way to protect your IP: lotsa lawyers.

I doubt that the Sonder or On One designs - a series of frame angles + tube lengths, could be patented, as there is no unique invention and a "design patent" would probably also be similarly difficult to prove uniqueness - I'm sure a quick scour of Alibaba would find many frames with similar enough design features. I guess maybe a case could be made for a trademark, if they were particularly unique, but otherwise it's just a variation of the double-diamond frame.

I've built prototypes for both companies, including all the bikes in that Outdoors Magic article. I know which of the 2 I would buy a bike from were I in the market, which I'm not. Paradoxically 7 of my bikes have frames sourced from one of these 2 but none bear any resemblance to a current model on their website. There's no love lost between the 2 of them for various reasons.

I know which of the 2 I would buy a bike from were I in the market.

Which one?!

I know you're not gonna answer this pistonbroke, but knowing which one you'd buy and why might be useful.

Is it just a case of one of them.are decent people and the others are shysters. Or is one of them making shit bikes and cutting corners, or ripping people off and trousering the money?!?

or ripping people off and trousering the money?!?

You can download the accounts for both companies online, I doubt either are making huge profits.

41 posts, 39 showing, I wonder what juicy goss has been deleted?

I had this frame built 6 years ago by Waltly titanium in China - I feel I've been ripped off by Sonder and On One! The notion that there's some sort of "intellectual property" theft going on here is a joke. If I was doing it again I'd go direct to Waltly, save a wedge of cash for starters

First they rip off the three little pigs and now this.  In the race to the bottom PX really are ahead of Daffyd Thomas😀

Three little pigs?

Are you all forgetting brant is a wizard?