So... in my quest to find the right full suss for me i rode the mentioned bike on the wall trail at afan. Here are my thoughts. Coments encouraged.
1. Steep head angle, even with 160mm up front.
2. Actually climbs like my hardtail. I would argue i would have ben quicker on the miserably up hill skyline trail the day before. (Felt like my bones had rattled apart by the end)
3. I am not skillfull enough.
4. Heavy... at 4500ish worth of bike i would expect it to come in well under 30lb.
5. Stiff... take from that what you will.
6. Having had this thing encourage me to ride into 2 different trees leaving me with a black eye and an upper torso tht looks like i am a prune man i will probably bee forced to get all armoured up as well...
7. It is better than i am.
Other frames i am considering include mojo sl, 575 + the obvious big names.
My biggest niggle is the weight,will i regret spening 2grand on a frame which will probably not build up much under 30lb even if it is h shizzle in every other way.
Worth mentioning it is my first full suss ride ever.
Thoughts and opinions welcome.
Dom
mine is anywhere between 31 and 35lb dependant on build / where i'm riding.
it's a brilliant stable frameset - lots of lateral stiffness.
i suffer pedal strike too much on mine.
however - build quality has been excellent [2 years old in nov].
they are heavy as they are super-stiff. awesome overall machine with ideosyncracies 🙂
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about 32.5lbs in this guise
I forgot to mention pedal strike,although i have to admit i put that downto my riding style.
Have you guys ever had other full sussers?
Dom
Heavy... at 4500ish worth of bike i would expect it to come in well under 30lb.
Just cos it's expensive, don't mean it's going to be light.
Coogan - are you sure? I thought that was the privilidge of those spending lots of money on such items!
Nicolai's are bombproof but not light but this sacrifice is out-weighed by the superb strength and amazing ride/build quality.
Loads more Nicolai stuff over [url= http://forums.mtbr.com/forumdisplay.php?f=139 ]Here[/url]
If lightweight is your goal I would look somewhere else.
It's a lot of bike for a first full susser!
Go test ride as many bikes as possible then choose.
Good luck!
"Coogan - are you sure? I thought that was the privilidge of those spending lots of money on such items!"
Privilege of buying a completely hand made frame with a 5 year warranty.... 😉
If you ride those types of trails then i think you would be better looking at an AC,will easily build to 30lbs or less.
The AC is similar to the 575 and sl all are 140mm ish bikes and are a lighter frame.
Fair point... and i hadn't realised how attrocious my spelling has got since ive been using spell check!
5 years eh... thats a lot of warranty!
Im planning on riding as many as i can before buying,probably in time for next summer.
Coogan - are you sure? I thought that was the privilidge of those spending lots of money on such items!
Why? Depends how you spec it. It is a 160mm travel bike after all. Can't see much point in that much travel sprinkled with lightweight parts to get the weight down. Get a more suitable frame.
Get an AC with custom geometry to slacken the HA. With good parts it will come in under 30lbs.
I reckon the AC is a great do-it-all bike but therefore a bit jack-of-all trades, master of none. The AM is more heavy-duty, although have ridden with guys who have done all-day rides on them (and the FR) without too much problem. Mate of mine is going from an FR to an AC for a lighter ride.
Just ordered a Mojo HD....turns up tomorrow or Wednesday...nuff said!
Again,good points well made. 160mm is quite a lot for the riding i do normally. But i did push the shock to 90% in 150 mode at the weekend... have to find somewhere with the ac to try. Anyone got one?
Again,good points well made. 160mm is quite a lot for the riding i do normally. But i did push the shock to 90% in 150 mode at the weekend... have to find somewhere with the ac to try. Anyone got one?
Bloody mobile internet.
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Had mine a couple of weeks now,love it! Pedals well,descends well,mega stiff,handbuilt in Germany,true it's not silly light but if that's what you're after you're looking at the wrong Nicolai, look at an ac with air suspension front and back,easily doable under 30lb.
I've never weighed mine, I've always thought the weight thing to be a slippery and often (within reason) pointless slope. To me 3 or 5 lbs here and there is good to lose as long as you can keep everything else that you like & want. Having said that I did build my AM up with a chance of keeping it light & nimble up front & in the turns, while keeping it tough & strong. So, lovely plush 2010 DT Swiss XMM 150 fork and DT Swiss M1600 wheels. The head angle doesn't feel steep at all when riding, the ride tracks really well 'cause it's stiff in every direction, it climbs pretty well (the DT Swiss launch control helps) and I too get some pedal strike, though I'd say that's normal in the ruts of the Peaks.
Of course it is alot of bike & I can't do it justice, but I do love it and for me it's a dream-bike.
Slightly off topic but I note the CCDB is upside down in the first picture and the Fox above the normal way up. Is there a reason/advantage/no difference to the direction?
Dosent make much difference as long as there is no collision under full compression.I ran my one the same way as Chilli on my Helius FR,Suppose it reduces the weight of the sprung mass on the rear.
have to find somewhere with the ac to try. Anyone got one?
Head for the Hills in Dorking have a medium demo built up....currently sitting in my shed though!
I test rode a Helius AM on White's Level yesterday and was completely blown away!
Agree with most of what was said in the first post except i found the head angle absolutly spot on! I have never ridden the black loop so fast or hard in my life and i put that down to the bike entirely. It was so composed and stiff to just the right extent.
Weight seemed no problem at all.....guess it depends on how fit you are perhaps 😉
I have a Helius CC, just over 2 1/2 year old now and needs it's second set of bushes- be aware! My local trails are Brecon Beacons and Glyncorrwg so are pretty abrasive though.
I'm 105kg and ride the bike on all sorts- inc. Alps, Beacons, enduros and overnighter trips towing the Yak.
As someone else said above, it is my dream bike, I love it to bits (and ride it to bits too)and would be loathe to have to change it. I had a really lightweight Trek HT beforehand. This feels/ rides much lighter until you hit the bumpy stuff and then it is amazing...
I'm in South Wales, close to Ammanford if you want a ride of a Large CC.
Nick - Was it the one at Skyline cycles? I didn't find it too heavy, it's just the thought of spending £2000 and not getting a sub 30lb bike at the end of it!!!! (Very silly I know!) Also I test rode it on our final day when I was absolutely wrecked, it still felt quicker than my Kona.
Ambrose - I may well take you up on that one day when I am back in south Wales, the CC is the really lightweight construction with ~100mm, without wanting to get too hung up on weight, how much does it weigh?
I love my AM. Best bike I have had yet... its as capable doonhall as my last 43+lb monster, yet it can cut it in the local forests. My head angle with 160 36 forks is 65 degree so not steep, and the bb is high. With 30% sag its mental but does feel a little sluggish. 20% sag is more xc friendly but less fun when giving it beans. I loved it at first, and with tweaking over six months it simply gets better all the time... next is a custom tune for the shock as I now know what I want... and I have the local rides to do it justice 🙂
It's a lot of bike... especially for a first full suss!!!
It is, but the intention is that it is a frame to keep. So it needs to be something I am absolutely happy with as I don't want to be replacing after a few years.
I'd rather repair and update with parts. Hence looking at the more niche products which stay more or less the same through time!
you'd be better off with an AC on a Float 150mm up front, 200x51 monarch out back.
seriously.
DrDom - Yes it was Skyline's Demo bike. Talas forks were in awful state but it was amazing none the less. So much so i have just ordered my AM frame! Woooohooooo! This bike will definitely be a keeper!
Mine will have to make do with 150mm 32 Float forks for now as my pockets aren't quite deep enough for some 36's just yet.
Nick.... I am secretly very jealous although covering it by claiming I am checking other bikes before committing!!!!!
I have never ridden Talas before, but I have to admit I didn't notice them, so that must be a good thing!
Lecht - I'll be looking for an AC to demo when I am next out and about for a weekend of riding.
I have ridden a fair few full-sussers and nothing has come close to the Nicolai. To me it offered the perfect blend........it had everything i was looking for. Can't wait!
sorry I'm late! Helius FR nearly 5years old, bleddly looooooovely
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This was my FR
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And this is its replacement
ION-st
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Blimey Sam, what have you built the ion up for? Dropping out the back of a plane!
DrDomRob--Its to make up for a lack of skill 
I only use it for DH and FR,its a beast and smooths out everything.I have ridden it about 8 miles before to my local hill.
DrDom- I genuinely have no idea of its weight, it has never been a worry/ issue.
am AM realistically built is ~32lbs.
AC is ~29lbs.
the AM won't like the 32's - it'll steepen the head angle too much.
if you're going 32's then you have to go AC.
Didn't Nicolai already change the AC and AM a bit for the next production runs? Meaning that the bike you can buy is not same as current demos.
I don't know details of the changes (AM more heavy duty now, AC detail changes) but heard this would be important as told by couple of Nicolai -riding friends last week. Some quick look at MTBR seems to confirm this?
Will have to look into that a little more then.
I've just splashed out and bought the ex Demo AM from 18Bikes... and pleased as punch with it. I must admit this isn't going to be my main bike, since yes it's in the region of 35lb as it stands, but it is such a great machine. it's defo the sort of bike for big burley rides, and totally overkill for most of my riding. so it's the 3rd bike in the stable to choose from, one being Whyte 19 HT in SingleSpeed guise, second being Whyte 120 FS in XC race/enduro guise and then this AM which is the fun bike. it has heavy duty Wotan forks that I love (on the fly ride height adjust 120 to 160mm) Hope V2 vented disks, Maxle F&R DT 440 hubs/5.1 rims and 2.4" Rubber Queens...
It's definitely a bike for the rougher technical bits of the Peaks, Lakes, Highlands and definitely Alps.
if you are after an XC orientated bike, then I'd go for the AC or CC. if you like them big burley and fun and ignore the weight then the AM is such fun.
and yes Nicolai constantly updates and tweeks his designs, it's a case of continuous improvements (not annual product release) and thus every frame is likely to be unique.
MisterT - Member
) and thus every frame is likely to be unique.
never a truer word spoken - you don't always get what you order either - all part of that German charm................ 🙄
TLR - Meaning?????
nick - you pay yer money and take yer chance..................
Right...that was helpful.
Have an AM and ST both fantastic bikes that beg to be ridden quickly!!
TLR is referring to the fact that invariably on any completed Nicolai order, there is something not quite what was ordered.
I have an AM now and have also owned an Ion. On the Ion, they missed off the glitter from the rear triangle (probably not a bad thing) and on the AM, I only found out that the original paint order had been noted down incorrectly (I'd ordered pearl white and they were proceeding with just plain white) when I asked for the colour to be changed.
My AM weighs 30.5lbs (weighed recently on HeiHei's digi-scales), this is with Stans Arch wheels, the new 36 Floats, which are just a shade over 2kg, Float RP23, super light ti axle pedals and an XTR chainset. Oh and I also run it 1x9, which nets another .7lbs accounting for the chain device. I run it for everything and have even spent a weekend hammering Gawton DH on it (Super Tavi and Egypt).
The HA on the new AM is billed as being 66 degrees, but the referring fork measurements has also changed from 545mm to 565mm or thereabouts. I've seen some postings that said the weight had gone up a little indicating that they've beefed the DT up to accomodate longer travel forks. If that's true then the HA would be effectively unchaged but if I were to order again, I would probably spec a 1.5" head tube and fit a Cane Creek angle reducer cup.
From all that has been said on here i reckon i'll be looking at the ac if not the cc. But expect to use it for pretty much everything relying on my lack of balls to keep me inside the bikesoperating evelope.
The differences between order and delivery, how major are we talking?
Geetee - Thats great info. I was just looking at the new 2011 techsheet for the AM and i noted that fork referencing length was 545mm. Where did you get 565mm from? HA is 66.5 degrees with 545mm fork. I'm in a real dilema regarding fork choice. Should i just stick on my 2 ride old 32 150mm's or go for 36 TALAS????? I'm after a fork that matches the rear end stiffness really.
For whats it's worth, the rest of spec will be XT drivetrain, E13 Heim2 device, Pro2/XM819(F) & DT440/Stans Flow(R), Hope Mini Mono and RP23BV.
My AM frame came with no front mech cable stop... so I use a Hammerschmidt which is ace... but partly why mine weights 33lbs.
There was a new order system when mine was ordered and somehow between shop and Nicolai it got missed... an arrangement was came too and I am very happy.
I went for the 1.5 and with a deep acros headset I have a 65deg head angle. Did I say how much I love mine? Just be sure to get the shop to check your order as there is so much to choose.... but that's the thing about options.
Mine will be Ano Black so hopefully no confusion over colour choice should occur.....i gave up trying to choose any other colour, the choice was just too much!
I want one. I want one I want one
Is the CCDB worth it? Recommended shock?
IF...Running light but strong wheels e.g Pro2 s on flow rims, tubeless setup (high rollers or similar) tapered tube Fox 36's up front, Saint brakes, Joplin post or similar, middleburn x-type RS8s double/bash/chaindevice, Saint rear mech, xtr shifters what might it come in on the weight front, would that build into something 32lb?
If so I can feel an exploratory call to 18bikes coming on, a demo and a CC 😀
Hi Nick
Yes well spotted. I made a mistake. The tech sheet does indeed have a referring fork measurement of 545mm and the maximum fork travel is given as 555mm. I got these two measurements mixed up (and just plain wrong it seems!)
I can however give you some advice on running the 32s on the bike as I've actually done this for two months on my Nic. I bought them new, 150mm versions with 15mm QR. In terms of steering acuracy and control over fast rocky descents they worked really well and I never felt that the HA was too steep in terms of steering response, BUT (and for me it wa a big but), it did drop the front end quite a bit and after about the third time of the front wheel tucking under on steep tight turns, I gave up on them.
The problem might have been poor set up on the forks and not enough support on them or more likely it was just that the front end was too low. I tend to move my weight forward quite a bit to get the front wheel to bite and on steep turns, I just ended up pitching over the bars. I'd run Lyriks before these 32s and never experienced this problem before so I know it's not rider error.
In terms of the errors made on the order, they're never a major issue really, but frustratingly it seems to be always something small enough that you just put up with it because you've already waited 3 months for the thing to arrive (yes it really will take that long, but it's worth the wait!). I was in the LBS when a customer collected his Nato Olive Green AM, which was supposed to be matt (matte?) finish all over but had a matt front and a glossy rear.
These errors will always be fixed but it means sending the frame back, which you're always loath to do for something relatively minor.
When I ordered the AM I knew to follow up so I got in touch with Simon from Momentum (UK distributor) and asked him to check it himself, rather than going through the LBS. They've implemented a new order system now so things may well have got better.
I'd happily buy another Nic tomorrow. The issues I've had and seen other people have, would never put me off buying one.
Is the CCDB worth it? Recommended shock?
I was on the Peak's Pootle todat and was using the CCDB for that. It is fabulous and makes a significant difference to the bike's performance. I also have an RP23 which is probably 80% as good but 1lb lighter.
what might it come in on the weight front, would that build into something 32lb?
Yes about that. Mine's more or less that build and weighs 30.5lbs but has slightly lighter wheels (say 100g), lighter chainset (say 200g) a 1x9 set up (saves about 500g) and light pedals (probably around 200g?). So all in about 1kg, but I add about 300g little for the large size and the paint on the frame.
CCDB?
cane creek double barrel shock
Geetee - Interesting stuff...having never owned 36's before (or indeed any other 160mm fork!) i think i will probably run with the 150mm 32 i have, for now. Got my eye on the BOS Deville though!!!! Seems the only drawback to the 150's might be th tuck-in issue but whilst alot of my riding can be steep it doesn't involve alot of tight turns (except the annual Alps trip!) plus i'm no heavyweight (11 stone) so don't anticipate the fork wanting to dive too much.
I read about the colour mis-match over on MTBR....i would have been annoyed if it had been me. Ano Black with Silver 'Extra Love' parts and Chrome decals can't be that hard to get right...can it?
nickegg
If you're that bothered about errors with your order, give Nic a call directly, am sure Karl will get back to you.
FWIW, I own 3 of them and have owned 4 in total and they have never got an order wrong on my frames. So, as ever, you often hear about the folk who have a problem with an order, but you won't hear from the (majority) of the rest of Nic owners who don't have a problem.
Again, FWIW, my experience with Nicolai has been as good as Turner (which I've also owened) on the CS front - when I've had issues or questions I've emailed Karl and co and have always got a good response.
When you get it you will love it - was on my AFR doing uplifts at Cwmcarn today and it was fantastic fun.
Not so worried really.....i am hoping to get my order confirmed for the early November production slot so hopefully won't have to wait as long as some have.
nickegg - good luck running the 32's.
as geetee mentions, there will be a tendency to tuck during compressed carving turns [think berms, etc].
i spoke to karl nicolai about the 32 running on an AM frame and he advised the use of a lower race headset extender [reset racing do them] to permit suitable A-C measurement.
i've not bothered as the 36 FLOATS on mine are perfect geometrically for the frameset.
what other options have you considered ?
iscg for h/s is now free option so i'd get that.
12mm bt rear axle is also free and worth consideration.
again - good luck !
oh - there's also a choice of levers available to permitting 200x51 or 216 x 63 [iiirc].
i hear the rumour is the longer stroke works better than the shorter stroke, but it remains un-confirmed how much improvement is apparent.
As i understand it the longer stroke should work better with air shocks which would make sense and thats what i'll be running.
ISCG mounts i am getting as i run a double/bash/guide set-up. Shan't bother with a bolt-thru set-up as it was, by far, the stiffest frame i've ever ridden.
I've got a awhile to decide about forks although i too had wondered about a spacer below the lower headset cup.....i will probably just give in and go with some 36's or Deville's (if i'm feeling really rich!!!!!)
TLR makes a really good point about the taller lower crown from Reset. Technically you need a deep insert headset anyway for warranty on the headtube (although a lot of people don't use them and I've never heard of anyone ovalising a Nicolai headtube!), but either way, having a Reset racing unit fitted at the factory is not a bad idea and it would mean they could fit the taller lower crown race.
This does mean that a 520mm A2C fork (i.e. the 150mm Fox 32 or Rock Shox Pike) would work perfectly in terms of geometry. I would have gone this way myself but I wanted to run two different forks for when I was doing downhill/uplift days.
The Devilles look amazing, but the only thing that startles you more than their sexiness is their price 😯
It's great to hear from Auric that in four orders he's not had a single thing wrong. Does kind of restore the faith but it makes me wonder whether the problem is between the LBS and Momentum or between Momentum and Nicolai. The guys that run Momentum have full time jobs outside of running the distribution business. Maybe they are busier at some times more than others?
With black ano and silver levers etc, I can't see anything going wrong. The ISCG tabs are standard now and therefore not an upcharge (I had to pay £90 for mine and then a month later they made them stock items!)
Also were you going for a 1.5" HT? I really wish I had done as it just gives you that added flexibility and future proofing that can make the bike all things to all people if it needed to be. I'm not saying the HA is too steep, because I really don't think it is, but the beauty of the 1.5" is that you can run the angle reducer cups, which then means the bike becomes more effective and useable in lower travel settings, for example in the 140mm mode.
Currently with the standard geometry, the 140mm mode makes the bike too high and steep as you don't sag into the travel so much and therefore the BB remains higher and HA a little steeper. Reducer cups would also mean you could happily run a 150mm Fox 32, probably without the need for the taller crown race. It makes the package even more versatile.
Given the frame is already so stiff, I have not ridden one so thats based on responses, other than future proofing, is there a performance difference to either a tapered or 1.5 head tube?
I may look for a s/h frame as well as investigating new and anything from last year or before will have a standard head tube wont it?
1.5" HT simply offers more steerer choice.
my 1.125" is stiff as in collaboration with the AM gussetry.
That's what I like to hear 😀 ..checks 0% offer on credit card 😆
It's getting harder and harder for me to not just go and buy one!